What if Columbus was a Muslim?, page 2

reply to post by eradown

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That does sound fascinating, are there any sources for North African pre-Columbian trade in the Americas? I've heard that maize and American flowers were found in pre-Columbian carvings in Roslyn Chapel (it's likely that the St Clair's made the journey). However I've never heard of evidence of maize in Africa before the Columbian exchange. But then there's the cocaine in the Egyptian mummies...

reply to post by halfoldman

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Here is a few for you....

The Pre-Columbian Exchange: Time to Rewrite the History Books
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Tobacco And Cocaine In Ancient Egypt

The current newsletter of the New England Antiquities Research Association has flagged an important anomaly that appeared on a 1997 TV program.
"In January [1997] the Discovery Channel broadcast a program stating that cocaine and tobacco had been found in Egyptian mummies known to be at least 3,000 years old. Tests used modern forensic methods and were repeated many times under carefully controlled conditions. Since coca and tobacco are not known to have grown anywhere other than the Americas, the evidence points to trade routes across the Pacific or Atlantic in those remote times. The program seemed to favor a Pacific crossing and then delivery via the Silk Route. Watch for a rebroadcast."

Source

The Curse of the Cocaine Mummies

Transatlantic Trade in Cocaine and Tobacco: Was America a Phœnician Colony?

North African pirates abducted and enslaved more than 1 million Europeans between 1530 and 1780 in a series of raids which depopulated coastal towns from Sicily to Cornwall, according to new research.

North African slave raids on Europe

Somehow when you look at these actions, they don't seem more advanced and/or kind.

I think that the main difference is that it just would have been a different group that conquered the Americas.

reply to post by Wildbob77

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If I had an old score to settle I would want the Jesuits to help me not the Muslims. Stone carvings of MesoAmericans castrating what look like white and black men have been found. It looks like Quetzalcoatl or Kulcan(link to Cain or Vulcan?) fled slaughter. Appeasing Muslims is as simple as converting to Islam. Muslims are not allowed to steal from Muslims. The Spanish particularly Basques are related closely by blood to the North Africans.




[edit on 6-11-2009 by eradown]

reply to post by eradown

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If you look at the Muslim on Muslim in the mid east you will see that not all Muslims regard each other as Muslims. Maybe they don't steal from each other but they don't seem to have any issues about killing each other.

reply to post by bettermakings

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He was christian. Hate to break it to you, but "he wasn't a nice man" isn't enough to revoke his christian-ness.

At least some of his crew were probably Jews or Muslims, however... 'course they "converted" during the Reconquista and inquisition, but they kept their own religions going in secret. And if you wanted a team of good sailors in 1492, you wanted Muslims and Jews.

reply to post by autowrench

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Problem?

Those mummies had previously been exposed to tobacco and cocaine during their time in private ownership.

If they pulled a mummy out of the sand in Egypt and the dude had all this stuff, that would be something. But they didn't.

reply to post by Wildbob77

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Even by the standards of the time he was a barbaric M'F'er. What he did to the Arawak and Carib was enough to draw condemnation from the church - which considering what the church was up to at the time, is saying quite a bit! He was replaced as Governor because he was "ruling as a tyrant" - and again by the standards of the day, that's saying something. He even ended up in jail because of the excesses he took in the Caribbean.

Even given the standards of the day, everyone thought Christoffa Corombo was a really big dick.

[edit on 6-11-2009 by TheWalkingFox]

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by bettermakings

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He was christian. Hate to break it to you, but "he wasn't a nice man" isn't enough to revoke his christian-ness.

At least some of his crew were probably Jews or Muslims, however... 'course they "converted" during the Reconquista and inquisition, but they kept their own religions going in secret. And if you wanted a team of good sailors in 1492, you wanted Muslims and Jews.

Don't forget about the Portuguese and the Basques. The archeological evidence shows that the Solutrians( France and Portugal) were very closely related to the pre clovis Americans. Still the crew despised Columbus. He literally pointed in the west and told them to sail in that direction. He did not even know how to use a sextant.

reply to post by eradown

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The crew of his first voyage gets a lot of credit for spreading Syphilis.

Did Columbus Bring Syphilis to Europe

That's from the Scientific American January 2008

Here's a quote
"Apparently, the New World isn't all that intrepid explorer Christopher Columbus discovered; seems we may also have him to thank for spreading the pathogen that causes syphilis—along with news of the Americas—to Europe.

A new study provides what scientists say is the most convincing evidence to date that the Italian adventurer and some of his crew contracted the disease during their voyage to the New World—and unwittingly introduced it to the old one circa 1493.

"

reply to post by halfoldman

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If you read into anything about him, it is obviously that he was, like most then, fanatically Catholic. Religion has nothing to do with it; Europe had the technology and powerful incentive to search for a route to Asia, perhaps through circumnavigation. The world just ended up being bigger than many Europeans thought.


reply to post by plumranch

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This is not the place for religious bigotry. We will not debate whether Islam is a good religion or not. So hush, child.


reply to post by bettermakings

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He was a Catholic and followed it well. Spanish conquerors often justified themselves through various religious arguments. And before you go bashing them, remember the equally or more disturbing fundamentalism of many Indian cultures, including the Aztecs, which waged perpetual wars to gain captives for religious sacrificial slaughters. Not that it makes anything better or worse.

And there is debate that Columbus was either Genoese (from Italy, but "Italian" did not exist them), Spanish, or Portugese.


reply to post by abandonednation

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The "Muslim world?" "They"? What the hell are you talking about? There is not and never was a unified Muslim people. And don't get me started on your ridiculous usage of the word "enlightened."


reply to post by defcon5

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Ignorant prick.



reply to post by Wildbob77

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WalkingFox has it right. Columbus was even imprisoned before being pardoned following being stripped of his leadership.

reply to post by Johnmike

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The OP stated:

Well, we know both groups (Christian and Muslim) had horrible wars and slavery. The general thinking is that Muslims were slightly more enlightened by 1492. Without hatred or bias, what do others think?

Sorry if you haven't been following this thread but the OP asked and we are responding about both the Catholics and Muslims. Both have taken quite a beating actually.

Perhaps in politically correct New York with your uppity friends you don't discuss religion but here on ATS we do. So I'm so sorry to upset you religious sensitivities but s'est la vie.

Oh yes and buddy you might want to grow up and show some respect to your fellow ATSers.

Sorry also to note that your friends the Muslims have had a bad week! Islam under fire in Texas army shooting

reply to post by Johnmike

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Elegant decorum, Johnny! Did you learn that in New York or is that just your nature? You also add a lot of interesting material to the discussion so we can all thank you for that!

reply to post by Johnmike

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In general, I've been doing some thinking on the topic. They (the spanish and other European seafring traders) did have the incentive. At least according to mainstream history they were ejecting and cutting ties with Islam. Yet the over-land spice route went via Isamic territory. So yes, the religious stand-off did give them the incentive to find an alternative route to the East, or at least other riches.
The various Muslims controlled the spice route, so they had little incentive.

reply to post by halfoldman

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I almost never say anything negative and I feel like this is one of those times I must say something negative....THIS IS BY FAR THE STUPIDEST POST THAT'S BEEN ON ATS...wow.

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