Did the USAF Help pull off 911?, page 23

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reply posted on 27-12-2009 @ 08:12 PM by jerico65

Originally posted by impressme
Yes I do because the military never told the truth to what they ere doing in fact they were caught lying to the 911 commission to why they did not intercept those planes that morning, that the 911 commissioners wanted a criminal investigation from the Justice department, so there is you proof.

So, according to you, everyone in the military is a lying, right?

Originally posted by impressme
Yeah, and I can tell you what I was doing on the space shuttle on sep, 11 and everything up until 23 when I was launched.

And what you're trying to do (and doing badly) is call me a liar.

Whatever, Gus.

You asked what the military was doing on 11 Sep, and I told you what my squadron was doing. Take it or leave it, it's the truth, and I really don't care if it upsets your theory and opinion of what was going on that day within the USAF.

reply posted on 27-12-2009 @ 08:13 PM by jerico65

Originally posted by impressme
That was my quote to you. Any reader can see that. You are not allowed to take someone else’s quotes and use it as your own, read the T&C in ATS.

You bet it is. Remember, tracers point in both directions. And didn't you just do something similiar a few posts above?

. Busted!

reply posted on 27-12-2009 @ 08:14 PM by jerico65

Originally posted by rhunter
No actually- NORAD wasn't operational at Cheyenne Mtn. until April 20, 1966. FYI- the NORAD headquarters is also no longer located at Cheyenne Mountain (although it is nearby at Peterson AFB).

I stand corrected. Thanks for the sources, too. Good reading.

reply posted on 27-12-2009 @ 08:37 PM by impressme

reply to post by jerico65

So, according to you, everyone in the military is a lying, right?

I never said the entire military is lying but you know that don’t you .

Originally posted by impressme
Yeah, and I can tell you what I was doing on the space shuttle on sep, 11 and everything up until 23 when I was launched.

And what you're trying to do (and doing badly) is call me a liar.

Anyone can be anything they want on the internet as well as you to push their truth, like you are doing to defend a lie. I don’t care if you believe me or not. You say you were in the military on 911, then why didn’t YOU (USAF) stop the attack on the second tower?

Whatever, Gus. You asked what the military was doing on 11 Sep, and I told you what my squadron was doing. Take it or leave it, it's the truth, and I really don't care if it upsets your theory and opinion of what was going on that day within the USAF.

Well, the entire USAF is not at your location are they? No in fact they are all over the world am I right? So again, you do not know what the entire military was doing on the morning of 911, which is a fact.

reply posted on 27-12-2009 @ 08:38 PM by impressme

reply to post by jerico65

Originally posted by jerico65
Originally posted by impressme
That was my quote to you. Any reader can see that. You are not allowed to take someone else’s quotes and use it as your own, read the T&C in ATS.

You bet it is. Remember, tracers point in both directions. And didn't you just do something similiar a few posts above? . Busted!

What are you talking about?
Where did I copy someone else post and use it as mine?

[edit on 27-12-2009 by impressme]

reply posted on 27-12-2009 @ 08:43 PM by impressme

reply to post by jerico65

Originally posted by jerico65
Originally posted by rhunter
No actually- NORAD wasn't operational at Cheyenne Mtn. until April 20, 1966. FYI- the NORAD headquarters is also no longer located at Cheyenne Mountain (although it is nearby at Peterson AFB).

I stand corrected. Thanks for the sources, too. Good reading.

Look who made a mistake looks like rhunter just proved you wrong. How does it feel being the shoe is on the other foot?

[edit on 27-12-2009 by impressme]

reply posted on 27-12-2009 @ 08:50 PM by jerico65

Originally posted by impressme
You say you were in the military on 911, then why didn’t YOU (USAF) stop the attack on the second tower?

And I still am in the military.

Why didn't we stop the attack? Dude, the attack was over by the time we got our act squared away.

Originally posted by impressme
So again, you do not know what the entire military was doing on the morning of 911, which is a fact.

Nope, but you don't either, which is a fact.

reply posted on 27-12-2009 @ 08:53 PM by jerico65

Originally posted by impressme
Look who made a mistake looks like rhunter just proved you wrong. How does it feel being the shoe is on the other foot?

Doesn't bother me at all.

I don't go crying like a little girl with a skinned knee like some people around here.

Right, Impressme??

reply posted on 27-12-2009 @ 09:05 PM by CaptainIraq

reply to post by impressme

OK so I haven't been on ATS in a while, but I read over this thread and found myself intrigued by it's accusations...

My dad retired a few months before 9/11 as an O-6 (that's Colonel for all you civvies in this thread) from the USAF, so I figured he would be a good person to ask about it considering he worked in Cheyenne Mountain for a year and then after that at Peterson AFB. At the time, NORAD was beginning to be centralized at Peterson (which would become the HQ of NORTHCOM after 9/11) rather than the mountain. Anyway he was a Deputy commander of a mission group (he says it's kind of confusing as half the time he was the deputy for a Canadian military officer) while he was stationed in the mountain.

Now that you have a little background info about him, I'd like to share with you some things I learned from very lengthy and interesting conversation I had with him recently.

I asked him, and he said that he still knew some fellow officers who worked at NORAD when 9/11 occurred (he almost got called up again during the crisis; as some of you military guys know, my dad wasn't completely "retired" until this past summer).

Then when I asked him what happened there on 9/11 and if the Air Force stood down, he gave me a puzzled look as if to say "shouldn't it be obvious?"

That's right, the military actually went on high alert as a result of a terrorist attack!

I know, hard to believe. Anyway, I asked him what the procedures were at the time for such an incident and he noted that there were some, but they were insufficient as no one really considered them a big threat at the time. He noted that (and keep this in mind: he was a senior officer working IN NORAD just a few months before) we "weren't prepared for it." Communication between the FAA and NORAD was not as efficient as it needed to be to deal with such a situation. That's why as a result of 9/11 the FAA now has representatives at NORAD to facilitate better communication between civilian/military agencies should another incident like those happen again.

With regards to the actual hijackings: even IF a fighter or two could have been scrambled in time to intercept the airliners, there's only so much you can deduce from a visual. The president can't just order a couple of 16's to shoot down an airliner with possibly hundreds of citizens/foreign nationals aboard over a heavily populated area such as D.C. or NYC just because they broke communication. The thought of it is ludicrous. What if they're just having trouble with the comms? What if the pilots fell asleep?

Anyway I can see why civilians outside of the military could believe that Airmen would betray their country for money, because unless they join up, they can't possibly understand the love we have for our country (that does not, I repeat DOES NOT mean a love for the idiotic politicians who run the place) and the calling to defend the people in it (that means all of you on this thread slandering us, too). Do you somehow think that Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines join the military for the money and can be bribed to commit treason? I'm not going to get payed nearly as much as my fellow engineering buddies when I graduate and get commissioned as an officer in the Air Force, but I'm doing it anyway.

Someone said earlier in this thread that if you tried to pull something off like that with anyone in the military that everyone else would call them out on it. This is absolutely true. Even if you could find a couple bad apples do commit such an atrocity, there's NO WAY that no one else would find out about it.

Oh and by the way I did a short proof of your general argument in my head after reading your posts, and it simplifies down to one of these two solutions:

I am right, therefore, the USAF helped with the 9/11 attacks.

or

You can't be absolutely 100% sure I'm not correct in my assertions, therefore, the USAF helped with the 9/11 attacks.

I can't tell which. Someone wanna help me out?

Why are the brave men and women who serve in the armed forces converging on you in this thread you might ask? Well, we look out for one another. And you're basically asserting that the average Airman is more prone to commit treasonous acts than the average American.

Good day, sir.

[edit on 27-12-2009 by CaptainIraq]

reply posted on 27-12-2009 @ 09:12 PM by jerico65

Originally posted by CaptainIraq
He noted that (and keep this in mind: he was a senior officer working IN NORAD just a few months before) we "weren't prepared for it." Communication between the FAA and NORAD was not as efficient as it needed to be to deal with such a situation. That's why as a result of 9/11 the FAA now has representatives at NORAD to facilitate better communication between civilian/military agencies should another incident like those happen again.

That's pretty much the feel I got out of the whole clusterf**k. One agency was having problems talking with another.

Originally posted by CaptainIraq
With regards to the actual hijackings: even IF a fighter or two could have been scrambled in time to intercept the airliners, there's only so much you can deduce from a visual. The president can't just order a couple of 16's to shoot down an airliner with possibly hundreds of citizens/foreign nationals aboard over a heavily populated area such as D.C. or NYC just because they broke communication. The thought of it is ludicrous. What if they're just having trouble with the comms? What if the pilots fell asleep?

Had that happened, everyone on ATS would be screaming about how the USAF murdered civilians.

Can't win or lose. And people don't have a clue about what a disaster an airliner shot down over NYC would have been. Nothing like a cartwheeling, burning aircraft bouncing down the street to wake everyone up.

Originally posted by CaptainIraq
Oh and by the way I did a short proof of your general argument in my head after reading your posts, and it simplifies down to one of these two solutions:

I am right, therefore, the USAF helped with the 9/11 attacks.

or

You can't be absolutely 100% sure I'm not correct in my assertions, therefore, the USAF helped with the 9/11 attacks.

I can't tell which. Someone wanna help me out?

Dude, that was spot on.

Originally posted by CaptainIraq
Why are the brave men and women who serve in the armed forces converging on you in this thread you might ask? Well, we look out for one another.

And they can't understand that.

reply posted on 27-12-2009 @ 10:43 PM by impressme

reply to post by jerico65

Originally posted by impressme
So again, you do not know what the entire military was doing on the morning of 911, which is a fact.

Nope, but you don't either, which is a fact.

You obviously did not read what I posted, I already posted your quote to you a page 22, here it is below.

The fact is you do not know what the military was doing on the morning of 911 and yes neither do I or anyone else, and no I am not confuses as you would like everyone to believe. As far as you say you know what the military was doing, that is only your opinion.

reply posted on 27-12-2009 @ 11:25 PM by impressme

reply to post by CaptainIraq

I understand your action to defend the all of the military however, I never have made any claim that the entire military was or could have been involved in pulling off 911.

I come from a military background as well 20 years USAF and I am well aware of corruption in our military.

He noted that (and keep this in mind: he was a senior officer working IN NORAD just a few months before) we "weren't prepared for it."

What! We were prepared for it, our military had been doing war exercises for years of planes being hijacked and crashing them into building what are you talking about??

Between 1991 and 2001: NORAD Exercise Simulates Crash into Famous US Building

At some point between 1991 and 2001, a regional NORAD sector holds an exercise simulating a foreign hijacked airliner crashing into a prominent building in the United States, the identity of which is classified. According to military officials, the building is not the World Trade Center or the Pentagon. The exercise involves some flying of military aircraft, plus a “command post exercise” where communication procedures are rehearsed in an office environment. [CNN, 4/19/2004]

Between September 1999 and September 10, 2001: NORAD Exercises Simulate Plane Crashes into US Buildings; One of Them Is the World Trade Center

According to USA Today, “In the two years before the Sept. 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conduct[s] exercises simulating what the White House [later] says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties.” One of the imagined targets is the World Trade Center. According to NORAD, these scenarios are regional drills, rather than regularly scheduled continent-wide exercises. They utilize “[n]umerous types of civilian and military aircraft” as mock hijacked aircraft, and test “track detection and identification; scramble and interception; hijack procedures; internal and external agency coordination; and operational security and communications security procedures.” The main difference between these drills and the 9/11 attacks is that the planes in the drills are coming from another country, rather than from within the US. Before 9/11, NORAD reportedly conducts four major exercises at headquarters level per year. Most of them are said to include a hijack scenario (see Before September

www.historycommons.org...

Before September 11, 2001: NEADS Staff Briefed on Possibility of Plane Hitting WTC

Staff members at NORAD’s Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) are apparently briefed on the possibility of terrorists deliberately crashing a plane into the World Trade Center. According to author Lynn Spencer, when Trey Murphy—a former US Marine who is now a weapons controller at NEADS—first sees the television footage on September 11 showing that a plane has hit the WTC, the news will bring to mind one of his briefings: “What if a terrorist flies an airplane with a weapon of mass destruction into the World Trade Center? It had always been one of the military’s big fears.… [T]he image on the [television] screen certainly reminded him of his briefing.” [SPENCER, 2008, PP. 179] It is also later reported that, in the two years prior to 9/11, NORAD conducts exercises simulating terrorists crashing hijacked aircraft into targets that include the WTC (see Between September 1999 and September 10, 2001). [USA TODAY, 4/18/2004] Yet, in May 2002, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice will claim, “I don’t think anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center… that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile” (see May 16, 2002). [WHITE HOUSE, 5/16/2002] And in 2004, NORAD commander General Ralph Eberhart will say, “Regrettably, the tragic events of 9/11 were never anticipated or exercised.” [USA]

TODAY, 4/18/2004]

Before September 11, 2001: US Government Prepares for Hijackings, Some of Them Involving Multiple Planes

Based on interviews with FBI officials, the New Yorker will report that, for several years prior to 9/11, the US government plans for “simulated terrorist attacks, including scenarios [involving] multiple-plane hijackings.” This presumably refers to more than just the Amalgam Virgo 02 exercise (see July 2001), which is based on the scenario of two planes being simultaneously hijacked. [NEW YORKER, 9/24/2001] Similarly, NORAD will state that before 9/11, it normally conducts four major exercises each year at headquarters level. Most of them include a hijack scenario, and some of them are apparently quite similar to the 9/11 attacks (see Between 1991 and 2001 and Between September 1999 and September 10, 2001). [USA TODAY, 4/18/2004; CNN, 4/19/2004] According to author Lynn Spencer, before September 11, “To prepare for their missions in support of NORAD, the Air National Guard pilots—some of the finest pilots in the world—often use hijacking scenarios to train for intercept tactics.” [SPENCER, 2008, PP. 84-85] John Arquilla, an associate professor of defense analysis at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California, later says that while “No one knew specifically that 20 people would hijack four airliners and use them for suicide attacks against major buildings… the idea of such an attack was well known, [and] had been war gamed as a possibility in exercises before Sept. 11.” [MONTEREY COUNTY HERALD, 7/18/2002]

www.historycommons.org...

I think some one was misinformed here, now I could believe your father had no clue to what happened and if he did, I do not think he is able to tell you. I have proven that the military was prepared.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by impressme]

reply posted on 27-12-2009 @ 11:44 PM by CaptainIraq

reply to post by impressme

Hmmm...let's see...

You're using links to a .org website that has articles that, drum-roll please...

Can be edited by any user on the site!

Tada!!!

Now that I've completely invalidated your last post, I will proceed to remind you that my father (who worked as a senior officer inside Cheyenne Mountain during these alleged training exercises for an attack on the WTC) said he knew absolutely nothing about what you are suggesting.

Now since it's obvious that you are completely ignoring logic and factual evidence, I will refrain from entertaining your silly notions further.

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 12:06 AM by rhunter

Drum-roll please (although entirely superfluous

): Historycommons.org has hundreds (if not thousands) of verifiable source link URL's, as does Philip Thompson's book The Terror Timeline: Year by Year, Day by Day, Minute by Minute.

Here are the first few that I checked from impressme's Historycommons link above:

www.usatoday.com...

www.cnn.com...

www.globalsecurity.org...

Tampa Tribune

Further, I don't have a login to edit (and have never edited) the Historycommons page, so I am unfamiliar with their editorial procedures. Some rudimentary research skills might prove beneficial for some though, just as a guess (although the gray URL links might be difficult to see for some)...

Thompson's book (which is not really all that "editable" IMHO):

The Terror Timeline

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 12:17 AM by CaptainIraq

reply to post by rhunter

OK I can't help myself here.

Even if they have verifiable news sources, for a conspiracy theorist like you to use them simply creates a cyclical argument. Simply put: you only trust the mainstream media when it conveniences you. You can't do that in a legitimate argument; it's called flip-flopping.

Ah, the sweet smell of hypocrisy...

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 12:39 AM by rhunter

Perhaps you should have taken the opportunity to "help" yourself. As you haven't quoted any of my personal "theories" that involve conspiracies, how can you be so certain exactly what I do or I do not believe?

Absent that, you are making a glaring "strawman" logical fallacy FWIW.

www.skepdic.com...

You are also clearly guilty of committing a "Style over substance fallacy" with your pejorative language, such as your "conspiracy theorist" above.

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 28-12-2009 by rhunter]

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 12:57 AM by impressme

reply to post by CaptainIraq

Originally posted by CaptainIraq
reply to post by impressme

Hmmm...let's see...

You're using links to a .org website that has articles that, drum-roll please...

Can be edited by any user on the site!

Tada!!!

Now that I've completely invalidated your last post, I will proceed to remind you that my father (who worked as a senior officer inside Cheyenne Mountain during these alleged training exercises for an attack on the WTC) said he knew absolutely nothing about what you are suggesting.

Now since it's obvious that you are completely ignoring logic and factual evidence, I will refrain from entertaining your silly notions further.

Sorry Captain, you have just made a fool of yourself. Had you bothered to go to the original sources posted on my links, you would have seen the original articles which are NOT editable by anyone.

Looks like pop wasn’t in the loop or wasn’t honest with you, either way you are WRONG.

Now go ahead and invalidate CNN, USA TODAY, etc. and see how that works for you. I have posted their links below.