New Native America Vid Slams Thanksgiving holiday, page 3

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

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Yes, sadly, it does...you have given up and assimilated. You are no longer an Indian: you are merely a person with some Indian ancestry, not quite the same thing.

Y'know, he's ignorant and I would happily laugh in his face if I ever heard his ignorant crap firsthand.

But even so, you don't get to make a call on who's "really" an indian or not. Indians are allowed to be stupid too, you know.

Though he is right on some spots - if you think it's going to be possible to go back to chasing bison around and all that, you can't be too bright, yourself. Unfortunately this is what a lot of white people expect of us, y'know, to live like their personal tourist attractions or something. That's why the guys up on the North Carolina rez he's talking about wear Lakota-style war bonnets during tourist season.

[edit on 29-10-2009 by TheWalkingFox]

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

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On one level you are quite right, and I stand corrected.

On the other hand I can distinguish between possessing the genetics and actually practicing, being part of a nation, sharing in the downs and working to make things better for that nation. It's a hard nut, for sure. From what he says, it seems he's more American than Indian, I could be wrong. But as a pragmatic matter I have to acknowledge that the possibility he would put America first and his tribe second is fairly high.

If others can speak with validity about what constitutes a "true American", then I guess its equally valid to discuss what constitutes a "true Indian". I've known a lot in my time and most put their tribe or nation first and understood that assimiliation is still genocide, slower than getting shot, but the same in the end. In my book, if you have native heritage and put America first, then you are an American of Indian descent, same as others are Americans of European descent. But that doesn't make you an Indian. To be Indian you must put your nation first and strive to protect it and make it better.

reply to post by DaddyBare

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New Native America Vid Slams Thanksgiving holiday

Excuse me... I don't have any wish to get into a pissing match with anyone but, we do this every year.

Each and every Thanksgiving, these folks crawl out from the woodwork to whine and moan about this holiday. The same thing is done every Columbus Day as well.

I like cigars, red meat, red wines, Thanksgiving, Christmas trees and barbecue cooked over a real fire and not on a gas grill. So old Chris Columbus wasn't perfect and the Pilgrims were evil Christian types. Sue me and them... and maybe then Obama will issue the rest of us an apology too because, I have none to offer.

Pass the freakin' turkey, thank you.


[edit on 29-10-2009 by redoubt]

reply to post by buddhasystem

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You must have missed this part:

True, not ALL Americans are like this, but most certainly their leaders and important people are. Please understand that I distinguish between Americans as individuals, who can be amongst the very best humanity has to offer, and Americans as a people and culture. As a people and a culture they are not so nice...brilliant in many ways, with immense capacity for both good and ill. I wish them well, I really do.

Just because I can see and acknowledge reality doesn't mean I'm disdainful of people. I accept all on the basis of who they are as individuals. But individuals are not the same as the nation. Each of my assertions pertaining to the American character is easily substantiated: a quick perusal of virtually any political, social or economic thread here on ATS will provide ample examples in support.

But you don't address my point: do you, will you abide by what was promised? Do you support freedom and independence for the First Nations?

reply to post by redoubt

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Saying "Columbus wasn't perfect" is kinda like saying "Idi Amin was kind of eccentric." Please, please learn you some history, yo.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

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As far as chasing buffalo goes....ranching them is certainly on the agenda, they're way better than beef.

But being a legitimate independent nation doesn't mean going back to living in wickiups.

It means establishing our own educational system based on traditional values, allowing the students to cooperate and help each other learn rather than compete in cutthroat fashion for their sole benefit.

It means establishing an economy that limits wealth concentration; one that values taking the time to understand the consequences of taking different paths; one that ensures that no one goes hungry.

It means establishing a government that doesn't kidnap, torture and kill suspects without trial or bully other nations to ensure high profits for a ruthless few.

I am a traditionalist when it comes to values, but that doesn't prevent me from using a computer. So no, I'm not stupid.

reply to post by buddhasystem

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What makes you think I don't care about the US? I served and fought for it, voted in every election I could, done my best to strengthen it where I could.

But that doesn't mean I'm willing to lay down my legal rights under international law. The US signed many treaties with many nations that stipulated that when they were capable of self-government, their freedoms would be returned. Time to give it back. Why must Native Nations alone among the world simply surrender their political identities en masse to an occupying power? We were here first, we were always here, and always will be.

Nor does it mean I am blind to its history or its faults. A good friend tells you when you screw up. I can, as a good friend and someone who risked his life to defend them, tell Americans they are on a wrong path and I don't care to travel it with them. Thank you very much, but give me back my freedom and the land I need to practice it on, land everyone acknowledges was stolen. What's so difficult about that?

To continue to deny the First nations their complete political freedom is proof of my earlier assertions regarding the character of American culture.

Vitriol?

No.

Honest assessment of a friend's failings, with a hope they'll acknowledge it and strive for change.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

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As far as chasing buffalo goes....ranching them is certainly on the agenda, they're way better than beef.

I tasted bison meat for the first time last year. I haven't bought beef since. It tastes like meat.

But being a legitimate independent nation doesn't mean going back to living in wickiups.

Quite aware. I'm all for accepting the modern world - at least, the useful parts of it.

Where I disagreed with you is your apparent belief that Native Americna poverty is the fault of the indians themselves. I'm sorry, but no. We didn't choose to move into resource-free armpits of land, nor did we choose to become "orphans" cared for by the same entity that orphaned us in the first place.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by buddhasystem

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What makes you think I don't care about the US? I served and fought for it, voted in every election I could, done my best to strengthen it where I could.

Thank you.

Why must Native Nations alone among the world simply surrender their political identities en masse to an occupying power?

So did you say you strived to strengthen the occupying power?

We were here first, we were always here, and always will be.

As I tried to demonstrate, the "first" argument rarely works in practice, as most if not all lands on this planet were under different management in different times...

I respect your desire for complete self-determination of the Native, but I feel neutral towards it. Seems like an end onto itself. Fine.

Now, it's time to be thankful for harvest and for that turkey.

reply to post by UMayBRite!

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With its patron saint, Sarah Palin! Arbeit Macht Cranberry Sauce!

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by redoubt

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Saying "Columbus wasn't perfect" is kinda like saying "Idi Amin was kind of eccentric." Please, please learn you some history, yo.

No need to play the injured party here. The statement was generalized in nature and of course, you know that.

And please, for any future encounters, don't do the history lesson dance with me. Thanks.

reply to post by redoubt

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I will history tango you to the damned ground and then? And then I will do the history lambada with your mother!

Bring it!

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

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You must have me confused with someone else..I never said anything about poverty.

I know very well how each tribe was pushed onto land thought useless, yet still we've found ways to survive.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by redoubt

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I will history tango you to the damned ground and then? And then I will do the history lambada with your mother!

Bring it!

I wonder, do you hurl your insults because you are a poor debater or as a perceived means of disarming those you disagree with?

Either way, it is in really poor taste and does nothing to inspire others to take up an issue with you.

You want to have a hammer at history? Sure... I'm game. But the insults will cease. Do you understand? Don't bring my family into it or insult anyone who joins the conversation.

I have no problem taking up the issues but will not even try to debate a adolescent brat with no manners

reply to post by buddhasystem

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Yes, I did and do try to strengthen it: to make it strong enough to be willing to let go and trust us to be good neighbors. Strong enough to actually honor its given word. I see no conflict in that.

Perhaps we mean different things by strength.

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