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New Native America Vid Slams Thanksgiving holiday

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posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 12:14 PM

Originally posted by Zosynspiracy

Were Native American's way of life any less barbaric than the Taliban?
Did Native Americans treat women any better?
Did they treat each other any better?
Would the Native Americans have been called "terrorists" in this day and age and the whites the saviors and beacons of freedom?

Food for though. Maybe terrorists are not so much our enemy as the government would want us to believe. Maybe Bin Laden will be seen as a Chief Joseph to his people 200 years from now.

My food for thought is that white people were also still killing each other in wars and over land just as long as the native people were, and actually the idea of all native peoples as savages and warriors is all wrong. The majority of them WERE quite peaceful and they had treaties with each other not to fight. Of course there were fights between warring nations though, in the same way that there were between ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN EUROPE. What makes the difference between what the natives did and what the europeans did when they got here is the difference between a fair battle and a massacre. Even in battle native people had their own set of "war rules" and what was allowed and what was fair and what was not. When the europeans came to conquer their plan was just attack anything and kill everyone. and with superior weaponry, that was easily accomplished. Were you aware that scalping actually originated from the Europeans? The natives saw them do it and thought it fairly savage, but they copied it to humiliate the enemies.
Lets also not forget that in native communities often the women held positions of power or importance and were revered. There were many matriarchal based societies and there were even councils of women. In that time, where were the rights of women for the europeans? Some where down beneath their boots, if I may say. Even today we are supposed to honor and respect our grandmothers and invite them on council and to give speeches that we may learn from.
And in the old days europeans saw THEMSELVES as the saviors and believed it was their God given Duty to kidnap and brainwash and torture these people until they believed in the Christian God, so that is exactly what they did. They believed themselves beacons of freedom and the only way that the native peoples could be saved from their "savagery." So really, how much has changed since then?
The natives were seen as savage and barbaric (and are portrayed as such now in popular media that doesnt bother to do the research but rely instead on commonly understood stereotypes), but they were not. They were just a people with a different way of living. They had government and laws and systems of justice and commerce and cities. They just didnt look like the european ideal of what that should be.
Just because some one has a different ideal or a differnt way of living doesnt make them less civilized or have a worse quality of life. It just means they are different. But I guess to a westernized society, different is always worse.

Okay i probably talked enough in this topic- no one will probably care what I have to say anyway.

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 12:36 PM

Originally posted by habfan1968

In Canada, the govt. panders to the Natives. It is high time the natives picked themselves up and started out in the world on their own two feet. Opportunities are abound all over. Why is it that a majority of Natives live off the govt, more than any other demographic?

The government is honoring the treaties that they signed a few centuries ago saying that they would look after its people, so they have to. Even though some people are now saying that the government should stop honoring them and leave the native population to their own devices because it is a drain on their taxes. The native population is supposed to be self governing and sort of like a sovereign nation within the country Canada. But the Canadian government has their fingers in every single pie so its impossible for them to be as a nation of independent people because the reserves rely so much on the government. If the government were to pull that support (money etc) away the reserves would have very little to stand on and would not be able to continue, especially because many of the people, as you said, are on government assistance and therefore don't really posses the financial or professional experience to contribute anything.
So why are so many Native people on social assistance? Its a great question but have you ever bothered to consider the answer rather than just resentfully ask?
Firstly, breaking out of a cycle of alcoholism and violence is not easy for anybody of any race. There is generations of both descending down through the reservations. Secondly the reservations themselves are usually not the greatest places to live, with low quality housing, dirt roads, and often no schools, it can be difficult to aquire a sense of hope or empowerment. Thirdly, because racism is rampant throughout the nation it is difficult for many people to be seen in the workforce (or university) as something other than filling the native quota (as if you fill out job applications often there is a box you should check if you are native or metis, or other visible minority). the racism is very widespread and as a result many native people turn against it inwardly and there are people that will critizise you for having dreams to go to university (etc) because they will think you are "trying to be white", which does little to encourage people.
So it is difficult to get the right kind of people that need to take charge in side of offices within the reserve and as a result we have loads of corruption. BUT!!!! that is changing, slowly. You can't give power to a people after having taken it away for so long and expect them to just be fine. You have to give them a chance to build themselves and their communities and their spirits back up, and THAT is exactly what is going on right now. There are more and more people going to university and getting an education and more and more people dedicating themselves to fighting for their rights and their people. The freedom they have experienced is fairly new and like I said, the government is still on their backs but they are trying their best and slowly getting their way up there to make positive change.
I guess you would really have to see from the inside to recognize that.

ok ok I think I am done now.. I have to go to school soon

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 12:37 PM
I'm of Mescalero Indian descent on my fathers side. My family on my fathers side know all too well what happened. But despite this, this didn't stop them from loving this country.

My great grandfather, grandfather, father, uncles, my brothers, myself all have served. Now my son and two nephews are presently serving. In the last 500 years of our history I have never known of an Indian who turned white but make no mistake we are still here and most of us are damned proud to be American.

None of us are ignorant of what happened.

Trust me.

I celebrate Thanksgiving for the blessings I and my family have today.

Enough said.

[edit on 27-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 12:42 PM
reply to post by Brainbow

Yes I have been to a Res, ever summer as a child My birth dad would take me there, to see our people. It was very depressing. Now the North Carolina Rez has had a big boom because of the casino but, I don’t think that can be said for the same Oklahoma tribe. Here in America there the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and the Tribe has a say on what goes on in their land.

You are free to leave the Rez if you wish, some do many don’t. My grandparents were ones that did. I don’t know about the rest of the US but we don’t consider Indians as "dirty" or "savages". At least not to many people have said it to my face. But As I mentioned in another post I am paler then Full Bloods because my mother is of Anglo decent. But regardless you are the maker of your destiny here in the states. and Yes leave the bottle alone and either ship the Rez up or leave it. And there are plenty of successful Indians who have an education that go back to the rez and teach, It’s a culture thing now, Indians just choose not to do it.

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 12:45 PM
reply to post by Brainbow

Maybe it's because you attribute racism where it does not exist. Your statement insinuates that all warfare was due to racism. It was not and still is not. I being a Southerner acknowledge the fact that the North defeated my ancestors. I'm over it. You were conquered. Time to get over it.

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 12:48 PM
Thanksgiving is a day of thanks.

The pilgrims and indians sharing a turkey is a nice little story. The fact that it is a lie should have no consequence on the day itself.

Yes we white males are evil people. We enslaved the blacks, killed off the indians, held down the woman and we invade countries.

The funny thing is that there were black males who enslaved blacks, killed off other tribes, held back women and invaded other territories.

There were indians who enslaved women and children, killed off other tribes, held back women and invaded other territories.

Lots of bad things happened by every race of people. Stop pointing fingers, sit down at the table for a turkey dinner and give thanks that you have family around you that love you.

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 01:38 PM

Originally posted by DaddyBare

Originally posted by US_Centurion
To Native Americans: You were conquered. Get over it.

Thank you for proving a point that America views all us savage red skins as less than you white bread types... Equality is fine for Blacks Mexicans and those yellow fellows... but to you imperialistic colonialists drum beaters, it's still "Better dead than red"...

For us Racism didn't end with Martin Luther we still have yet to have our moment our movement.

Racism in America isn't dead... not to us

My brother we do not need A Martin Luther King, We need a group of our own to stand up and stop the compliancy on the Rez, we need our people to learn to stand on their own two feet without government assistance. We have been wronged but leaving on these lands doesn’t help us, without building our own economy rebuild our future. How many of our “Chiefs’” are up to this job? Some of them are just watching their own 6, and looking after their own. They are worse than the Federal Government at times. We need a Tecumseh or a Sitting Bull.

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 01:42 PM
I swore an oath long ago to fast every Thanksgiving until the day I see a free and independent Indian nation upon this continent. I maintain my oath to this day. I refuse to celebrate the survival of the people who went on to commit the most successful, unrelenting, and longest continuous genocide the world has ever seen. It's like asking Jews to celebrate Hilter's birthday and review all the good things he did (built the world's first expresswy system, put good Germans back to work) without acknowledging the bad.

Americans like to cop out of their current guilt, saying that it was Granddaddy's fault not theirs, without acknowledging that they are receivers of stolen property, and THEY refuse to abide by the treaties that Granddaddy signed, apparently reasoning that since Granddaddy was a racist liar who had no intent to keep his word, they shouldn't be bound by it. But the reality is that they are just as culpable as Granddaddy. Why? Because the treaties all said that when we natives had learned the "way of the white man" we would be allowed our freedom and could govern oursleves again. No American I know would stand for truly independent Native Nations: after all, we belong to them, we're "their" Indians, right? How dare we aspire to following our own way, and take control of our own resources, selling them to the most ethical bidder (which immediately leaves out most American companies).

I am Chiricahua Apache. My people and my tribe were the last to bear arms against the Pinda-lick-o-ye, the whites who paid government bounties for our children's scalps. We negotiated an honorable end to the war, only to be betrayed and deported (ethnic cleansing) for over twenty years, our very names removed and replaced by numbers. We still don't have a reservation and I've never received a dime from the government, nor anything but grief. Yet I'm a combat veteran who fought for this country. I love this land, but this country is not mine: it never accepted me as an equal, barely as a human. I've literally been told many times by many Americans what was expressed above: "You were conquered, get over it." The implication is that we were conquered by a superior race, survival of the fittest, and therefore we should just accept it and be grateful we're allowed a chance to compete for scraps of what is rightfully ours.

So far as I am concerned I would be within my rights as a Chiricahua to consider the war as still on, as the Americans have proven themselves base liars and oathbreakers. How many Americans would respond to being conquered with passive acceptance and "get over it"? The other argument is that it happened soooo long ago. For me it isn't that long: my grandparents were born in freedom, my great-grandparents fought and died for it, that isn't so long ago for me.

My people welcomed yours in peace, fed them, nurtured them and taught them how to live in our mountains. In return your people slaughtered mine and stole our home; now you disavow responsibility, yet you keep our home. It makes you no better than your murderous forebears.

Give me my freedom and land back and then I'll celebrate Thanksgiving.

Til then I fast on that day: I refuse to break bread with people who espouse freedom and practice enslavement.

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 01:45 PM

I wish I could embed photos, anyways this photo speaks for its self as far as I'm concerned!
Off to read up on embedding....

[edit on 27-10-2009 by Doc Holiday]

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 02:18 PM
reply to post by apacheman

Thats the mentailty our people need to get over. As long as we continue to blame the white man we will always be second class citizens. We cannot change what happened to our people, but we can change how our future generations veiw the World and the Country...

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 02:30 PM
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

Are you saying we should assimilate and forget about treaty rights?

Are you saying that we shouldn't strive to hold Americans accountable for the ongoing theft of resources and obstruction of our political rights?

I'm not whining about being treated poorly: I'm simply pointing out the facts of history.

If I choose not to forget betrayal and oppression, if I choose not to share a holiday that celebrates the beginning of the end of the world for natives, it doesn't mean I need to get over anything or that I am wallowing in self-pity. I have built a good world around me and take care of my own.

I will NEVER relent on this demand: Honor your word, America, and the legal treaties you signed, and give us our freedom back as promised.

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 02:39 PM
If the current mind frame was reversed and another "ppl/aliens/gov't" took america from the current regime, they would kick and scream to no end, and prolly blow it up, "if I can't have it , no one will"

Only it would be nothing differant than what they did to the early america.

Flat out steal a country/land from its rightfull ppl....

As far as the natives being savage, just look at your headlines"more ppl died/murdered today than did 300 years ago!", are you really past being a savage "as a whole" ?

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 03:08 PM
reply to post by apacheman

You know as well as I do, I never said we should forget what happened to our ancestorys. I am saying it is time for our people to take there destiny into there own hands. The treaties as we know we a way to keep us down, Do you really want to honor that Bull#? No, And the more we whine, cry and complain about it, just makes us look weak. Its time to get it over it and become a power in this country. Look at the Res all of them why is there more poverty there then anywhere else in America? Because we allow it to be, Yes we dont own factories, we dont own buisness, nor banks. But we need to, We need to start sending our young to colleges and let them bring back to us knowledge to pass on to our own. The days of making T'pes and wigwams are over. The days of hunting bufflo on an open praire our done. We have to expcet that fact and move on. Not forget, but move on.
And Independent Indian Nation wont happen, no point in it, this country is ours just as mush as it is for the whites. Now you may not agree with me and you may call me a traitor like many of mine own have but we have to face it. Tell me why we have no written history? Tell me why we lived the same way for hundreds of years, we never evolved as a people, and quite frankly its time we evolve. Maybe the Whiteman did us a favor, now we have to capitlize on it. Does this make me any less of an Indian?

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 03:25 PM
Could I just point out that from 1492 till the 1800's there were "indian wars" but there was only a USA for the last 100 years or so...

That means for over 300 years the indians were wiped out by Europeans, ie the English, the French, and especially the Spaniards. Why should white Americans take 100% of the blame and auto-guilt when most of the current white American populous are decendents of the Ellis Island immigrants?

Another group (African-Americans) should also keep that in mind as most white Americans didn't get here till way after the civil war!

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 03:33 PM

Originally posted by IntastellaBurst
Talk about a guilt trip, is someone still holding a grudge ??? why should we feel guilty for the sins of our forefathers ??

If I were a wealthy man, and I found out that my family's wealth is the result of the millions of dollars stolen from German Jews seventy years ago, should I feel guilty about it? I'm directly benefiting from mass murder, theft, racism, even while the living relatives of those who were stolen from had to re-start their lives in a strange and hostile land.

Now you. You are living on stolen property. That property was gained by genocide, ethnic cleansing, or deceit, depending on where exactly you live. You benefit from food, energy, raw materials, and many other things gleaned from other parcels of stolen property. Wherever your ancestors came from, they would not have been able to come here, had their assorted countries not been raking in wealth stolen from our land, whether it was directly stolen, or stolen property received in trade from the thieves.

The question to both isn't "should I feel guilty for the sins of my forefathers," but rather, "should I feel guilty for my benefiting from the death and suffering of others?"

Next thing ya know Bears are gonna put out viral video's for being a mascot for Chicago and being portrayed negatively in Goldie Locks and the Three Bears.

...Really? You're comparing Native Americans to wildlife? Well, that does say something.

However thanksgiving came to pass, it doesn't mean what it did back then, in fact I don't associate it with indians at all. So let us have it if it brings us good..... and not make us feel guilty for crimes we had nothing to do with.

Of course, why would you associate it with people you consider animals, and why would you feel guilty about the slaughter of those animals benefitting you?

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 03:42 PM

Originally posted by TreadUpon
Could I just point out that from 1492 till the 1800's there were "indian wars" but there was only a USA for the last 100 years or so...

That means for over 300 years the indians were wiped out by Europeans, ie the English, the French, and especially the Spaniards. Why should white Americans take 100% of the blame and auto-guilt when most of the current white American populous are decendents of the Ellis Island immigrants?

No, especially the English.

The French were pretty decent. Their position was come in, establish some trading posts, and leave the indians alone - the French realized two important things. One, trade was better with lots of indians, and two, indians could kick their asses (they were the French, after all!)

The Spanish were considerably more nasty. They wiped out the Caribbeans. Islands make genocide very easy. Then they moved on to crush the Mexica and Inka empires. Y'know, I'm really not going to begrudge them that, because under no rubric were either empire "good guys" - though the Inka fit better than the Mexica, especially after Atawalpa got killed. However, the Spanish didn't do much colonizing. They built missions, and sent white guys over to rule as governors, but there was no major flow of bodies from Spain to Europe. This is why once you get south of the US border, most people are, in fact Indians.

The English though... They did less killing as policy, but htye sure engaged in a whole lot of double-dealing, and kept sending ships of people over to the East Coast, where the cheese-eaters bred, and bred, and bred like rats. It was only to be expected that a major colonization effort would result in what happened in North America. The "indian wars" were almost entirely the product of the English, the English colonies, and then the United States - with minor participation by Canada.

Another group (African-Americans) should also keep that in mind as most white Americans didn't get here till way after the civil war!

And most white Americans, regardless of origin, were more than happy to enjoy the fruits of exploitation, disenfranchisement, and oppression of blacks, right on up into this century! Slavery is just dot #1 on a very big connect-the-dots puzzle of why black people have lots of reasons to be very upset.

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 05:35 PM
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

I didn't compare bears to indians, that part was more for fun, ... and when I reffered to the sins of our forefathers I was speaking about America in General, my family came to California by way of Mexico long ago, and was not California originally part of Mexico ?? so as far as I know, we didnt massacre anyone, or steal any land. I was simply sticking up for America as a whole.

and I just dont see Indians being portrayed as badly as people say, ... what, because there were a few sports teams named after them ??

posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 06:04 PM

Originally posted by Trolloks
To be honest, i never realy understood why you celebrate thanks giving (im from UK by the by).
You celebrate the pilgrams landing at the rock and being fed a feast by the locals, who were the very same locals that we slaughterd, raped, and robbed.
And then you have the same meal every year on the day to say thanks to the natives for their hospitality??
To me it makes no sence at all, in a way its like celebrating the capture of charles manson with a brutal murder.

This is not directed at any members of ATS, but the whole image of thanks giving that the US have put forward.

well, being a 57 year old american, thanksgiving was never about the indians when i grew up. there was all that stupid commercial crap sold to make a buck, but it never had any meaning to me. even the information that we got in school about the pilgrims was soon trashed with a little historical truth. thanksgiving was all about family getting together to eat, catch up on things that had happened during the year, and to tell stories.
how our ancestors wiped out the indian nation was known early on in my childhood, but my grandparents came over from europe, and had nothing to do with their demise. sorry, but i have no guilt...and being in california, the indians are getting the last laugh...their casinos have taken the white man's money and the tribes have been using that money to prosper and grow the next generation. if fact, i worked on the computers for the mi-wuk tribe headquarters here in northern california, and they are in such a rapid state of advancement for their people, that it would make your head spin. it has turned into a real success story. good for them, i say.

posted on Oct, 29 2009 @ 01:33 PM
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

Yes, sadly, it have given up and assimilated. You are no longer an Indian: you are merely a person with some Indian ancestry, not quite the same thing.

As far as giving up on freedom for our people, let me quote something from a people who never lost sight of who they were and are:

"Next year, in Jerusalem."

They waited for an awful long time to regain their land and freedom. You would have us give up and surrender completely after a mere hundred years or so. I will NEVER, EVER give up on our people, our rights, and our freedom. I'm sorry that you have, it weakens us.

As Indeh, as Apache, it is my right to follow my own path, and yours to follow your own. As an American, I am required to, if not follow, at least to accept the American path, one I vehemently disagree with, as it violates all that I have been taught and believe in. I share freely with whomever needs it: I don't celebrate greed and consolidating wealth. I tell the truth: Americans lie; to each other, to themselves, to their friends, to their enemies. I mind my own business: Americans like snooping on each other and meddling in the affairs of others. I earn, make, grow or honestly trade for what I need: Americans always want something for nothing. I accept responsibility to my family, the land, the future: Americans shirk theirs. I understand my place in nature and give due respect to all the different tribes of creation: the two-leggeds, the four leggeds, the winged and the finned, the tall trees and short grasses and all in between, all people in their own right from whom I respectfully ask before I take and thank afterwards. Americans think themselves superior, entitled, and simply take without thought or thanks, which is why they need a special day for it.

True, not ALL Americans are like this, but most certainly their leaders and important people are. Please understand that I distinguish between Americans as individuals, who can be amongst the very best humanity has to offer, and Americans as a people and culture. As a people and a culture they are not so nice...brilliant in many ways, with immense capacity for both good and ill. I wish them well, I really do.

But I want what was agreed to: our eventual freedom to be independent of them in our own homeland, following our own ways and values.

Do you realize that not a single native nation holds a seat in the UN? An entire continent whose native population has no voice, no face, no place among the other nations of the Earth. Do you really accept that as permanent?

How sad.

posted on Oct, 29 2009 @ 02:00 PM

Originally posted by IntastellaBurst
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

I didn't compare bears to indians, that part was more for fun, ... and when I reffered to the sins of our forefathers I was speaking about America in General, my family came to California by way of Mexico long ago, and was not California originally part of Mexico ?? so as far as I know, we didnt massacre anyone, or steal any land. I was simply sticking up for America as a whole.

Oh... Really? So the Spanish never conquered Mexico or California, never proclaimed themselves the proprierters of the territory, and then never once handed it over to the United States as if they were actually hte owners? And California remains the place in the US with the densest population of Native Americans, just like it was in 1491?

No, sorry, you're still living on stolen property that was acquired through genocide. It doesn't particularly matter if your family was the one firing the shots and falsifying the claims - though I'd be really surprised if they were totally innocent - you're still benefiting from crimes against the native peoples.

Doesn't make you a bad person, just like buying a car you didn't know was stolen doesn't make you a bad person - but the cops will bust you just the same and at the very least, you lose the car.

and I just dont see Indians being portrayed as badly as people say, ... what, because there were a few sports teams named after them ??

Imagine a sports team named "The Beaners" with a fat slob Mexican in a gigantic sombrero as its mascot. Or maybe "The Oakie Crackers" or something. Heck, maybe even the "Pittsburgh Porch Monkeys" and their mascot, Mookie the prancing pickaninny. Everyone shows up to their games in blackface.

It's more stupid than offensive, and most indians have the sense to realize they have more important crap to worry about. But hopefully you can see how these things could be offensive.

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