Originally posted by Zosynspiracy

Were Native American's way of life any less barbaric than the Taliban?
Did Native Americans treat women any better?
Did they treat each other any better?
Would the Native Americans have been called "terrorists" in this day and age and the whites the saviors and beacons of freedom?

Food for though. Maybe terrorists are not so much our enemy as the government would want us to believe. Maybe Bin Laden will be seen as a Chief Joseph to his people 200 years from now.

My food for thought is that white people were also still killing each other in wars and over land just as long as the native people were, and actually the idea of all native peoples as savages and warriors is all wrong. The majority of them WERE quite peaceful and they had treaties with each other not to fight. Of course there were fights between warring nations though, in the same way that there were between ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN EUROPE. What makes the difference between what the natives did and what the europeans did when they got here is the difference between a fair battle and a massacre. Even in battle native people had their own set of "war rules" and what was allowed and what was fair and what was not. When the europeans came to conquer their plan was just attack anything and kill everyone. and with superior weaponry, that was easily accomplished. Were you aware that scalping actually originated from the Europeans? The natives saw them do it and thought it fairly savage, but they copied it to humiliate the enemies.
Lets also not forget that in native communities often the women held positions of power or importance and were revered. There were many matriarchal based societies and there were even councils of women. In that time, where were the rights of women for the europeans? Some where down beneath their boots, if I may say. Even today we are supposed to honor and respect our grandmothers and invite them on council and to give speeches that we may learn from.
And in the old days europeans saw THEMSELVES as the saviors and believed it was their God given Duty to kidnap and brainwash and torture these people until they believed in the Christian God, so that is exactly what they did. They believed themselves beacons of freedom and the only way that the native peoples could be saved from their "savagery." So really, how much has changed since then?
The natives were seen as savage and barbaric (and are portrayed as such now in popular media that doesnt bother to do the research but rely instead on commonly understood stereotypes), but they were not. They were just a people with a different way of living. They had government and laws and systems of justice and commerce and cities. They just didnt look like the european ideal of what that should be.
Just because some one has a different ideal or a differnt way of living doesnt make them less civilized or have a worse quality of life. It just means they are different. But I guess to a westernized society, different is always worse.

Okay i probably talked enough in this topic- no one will probably care what I have to say anyway.

Originally posted by habfan1968


In Canada, the govt. panders to the Natives. It is high time the natives picked themselves up and started out in the world on their own two feet. Opportunities are abound all over. Why is it that a majority of Natives live off the govt, more than any other demographic?

The government is honoring the treaties that they signed a few centuries ago saying that they would look after its people, so they have to. Even though some people are now saying that the government should stop honoring them and leave the native population to their own devices because it is a drain on their taxes. The native population is supposed to be self governing and sort of like a sovereign nation within the country Canada. But the Canadian government has their fingers in every single pie so its impossible for them to be as a nation of independent people because the reserves rely so much on the government. If the government were to pull that support (money etc) away the reserves would have very little to stand on and would not be able to continue, especially because many of the people, as you said, are on government assistance and therefore don't really posses the financial or professional experience to contribute anything.
So why are so many Native people on social assistance? Its a great question but have you ever bothered to consider the answer rather than just resentfully ask?
Firstly, breaking out of a cycle of alcoholism and violence is not easy for anybody of any race. There is generations of both descending down through the reservations. Secondly the reservations themselves are usually not the greatest places to live, with low quality housing, dirt roads, and often no schools, it can be difficult to aquire a sense of hope or empowerment. Thirdly, because racism is rampant throughout the nation it is difficult for many people to be seen in the workforce (or university) as something other than filling the native quota (as if you fill out job applications often there is a box you should check if you are native or metis, or other visible minority). the racism is very widespread and as a result many native people turn against it inwardly and there are people that will critizise you for having dreams to go to university (etc) because they will think you are "trying to be white", which does little to encourage people.
So it is difficult to get the right kind of people that need to take charge in side of offices within the reserve and as a result we have loads of corruption. BUT!!!! that is changing, slowly. You can't give power to a people after having taken it away for so long and expect them to just be fine. You have to give them a chance to build themselves and their communities and their spirits back up, and THAT is exactly what is going on right now. There are more and more people going to university and getting an education and more and more people dedicating themselves to fighting for their rights and their people. The freedom they have experienced is fairly new and like I said, the government is still on their backs but they are trying their best and slowly getting their way up there to make positive change.
I guess you would really have to see from the inside to recognize that.

ok ok I think I am done now.. I have to go to school soon

Thanksgiving is a day of thanks.

The pilgrims and indians sharing a turkey is a nice little story. The fact that it is a lie should have no consequence on the day itself.

Yes we white males are evil people. We enslaved the blacks, killed off the indians, held down the woman and we invade countries.

The funny thing is that there were black males who enslaved blacks, killed off other tribes, held back women and invaded other territories.

There were indians who enslaved women and children, killed off other tribes, held back women and invaded other territories.


Lots of bad things happened by every race of people. Stop pointing fingers, sit down at the table for a turkey dinner and give thanks that you have family around you that love you.

Originally posted by DaddyBare

Originally posted by US_Centurion
To Native Americans: You were conquered. Get over it.

Thank you for proving a point that America views all us savage red skins as less than you white bread types... Equality is fine for Blacks Mexicans and those yellow fellows... but to you imperialistic colonialists drum beaters, it's still "Better dead than red"...

For us Racism didn't end with Martin Luther we still have yet to have our moment our movement.

Racism in America isn't dead... not to us

My brother we do not need A Martin Luther King, We need a group of our own to stand up and stop the compliancy on the Rez, we need our people to learn to stand on their own two feet without government assistance. We have been wronged but leaving on these lands doesn’t help us, without building our own economy rebuild our future. How many of our “Chiefs’” are up to this job? Some of them are just watching their own 6, and looking after their own. They are worse than the Federal Government at times. We need a Tecumseh or a Sitting Bull.

I swore an oath long ago to fast every Thanksgiving until the day I see a free and independent Indian nation upon this continent. I maintain my oath to this day. I refuse to celebrate the survival of the people who went on to commit the most successful, unrelenting, and longest continuous genocide the world has ever seen. It's like asking Jews to celebrate Hilter's birthday and review all the good things he did (built the world's first expresswy system, put good Germans back to work) without acknowledging the bad.

Americans like to cop out of their current guilt, saying that it was Granddaddy's fault not theirs, without acknowledging that they are receivers of stolen property, and THEY refuse to abide by the treaties that Granddaddy signed, apparently reasoning that since Granddaddy was a racist liar who had no intent to keep his word, they shouldn't be bound by it. But the reality is that they are just as culpable as Granddaddy. Why? Because the treaties all said that when we natives had learned the "way of the white man" we would be allowed our freedom and could govern oursleves again. No American I know would stand for truly independent Native Nations: after all, we belong to them, we're "their" Indians, right? How dare we aspire to following our own way, and take control of our own resources, selling them to the most ethical bidder (which immediately leaves out most American companies).

I am Chiricahua Apache. My people and my tribe were the last to bear arms against the Pinda-lick-o-ye, the whites who paid government bounties for our children's scalps. We negotiated an honorable end to the war, only to be betrayed and deported (ethnic cleansing) for over twenty years, our very names removed and replaced by numbers. We still don't have a reservation and I've never received a dime from the government, nor anything but grief. Yet I'm a combat veteran who fought for this country. I love this land, but this country is not mine: it never accepted me as an equal, barely as a human. I've literally been told many times by many Americans what was expressed above: "You were conquered, get over it." The implication is that we were conquered by a superior race, survival of the fittest, and therefore we should just accept it and be grateful we're allowed a chance to compete for scraps of what is rightfully ours.

So far as I am concerned I would be within my rights as a Chiricahua to consider the war as still on, as the Americans have proven themselves base liars and oathbreakers. How many Americans would respond to being conquered with passive acceptance and "get over it"? The other argument is that it happened soooo long ago. For me it isn't that long: my grandparents were born in freedom, my great-grandparents fought and died for it, that isn't so long ago for me.

My people welcomed yours in peace, fed them, nurtured them and taught them how to live in our mountains. In return your people slaughtered mine and stole our home; now you disavow responsibility, yet you keep our home. It makes you no better than your murderous forebears.

Give me my freedom and land back and then I'll celebrate Thanksgiving.

Til then I fast on that day: I refuse to break bread with people who espouse freedom and practice enslavement.

If the current mind frame was reversed and another "ppl/aliens/gov't" took america from the current regime, they would kick and scream to no end, and prolly blow it up, "if I can't have it , no one will"

Only it would be nothing differant than what they did to the early america.

Flat out steal a country/land from its rightfull ppl....

As far as the natives being savage, just look at your headlines"more ppl died/murdered today than did 300 years ago!", are you really past being a savage "as a whole" ?

Could I just point out that from 1492 till the 1800's there were "indian wars" but there was only a USA for the last 100 years or so...

That means for over 300 years the indians were wiped out by Europeans, ie the English, the French, and especially the Spaniards. Why should white Americans take 100% of the blame and auto-guilt when most of the current white American populous are decendents of the Ellis Island immigrants?

Another group (African-Americans) should also keep that in mind as most white Americans didn't get here till way after the civil war!

Originally posted by IntastellaBurst
Talk about a guilt trip, is someone still holding a grudge ??? why should we feel guilty for the sins of our forefathers ??

If I were a wealthy man, and I found out that my family's wealth is the result of the millions of dollars stolen from German Jews seventy years ago, should I feel guilty about it? I'm directly benefiting from mass murder, theft, racism, even while the living relatives of those who were stolen from had to re-start their lives in a strange and hostile land.

Now you. You are living on stolen property. That property was gained by genocide, ethnic cleansing, or deceit, depending on where exactly you live. You benefit from food, energy, raw materials, and many other things gleaned from other parcels of stolen property. Wherever your ancestors came from, they would not have been able to come here, had their assorted countries not been raking in wealth stolen from our land, whether it was directly stolen, or stolen property received in trade from the thieves.

The question to both isn't "should I feel guilty for the sins of my forefathers," but rather, "should I feel guilty for my benefiting from the death and suffering of others?"

Next thing ya know Bears are gonna put out viral video's for being a mascot for Chicago and being portrayed negatively in Goldie Locks and the Three Bears.

...Really? You're comparing Native Americans to wildlife? Well, that does say something.

However thanksgiving came to pass, it doesn't mean what it did back then, in fact I don't associate it with indians at all. So let us have it if it brings us good..... and not make us feel guilty for crimes we had nothing to do with.

Of course, why would you associate it with people you consider animals, and why would you feel guilty about the slaughter of those animals benefitting you?

Originally posted by TreadUpon
Could I just point out that from 1492 till the 1800's there were "indian wars" but there was only a USA for the last 100 years or so...

That means for over 300 years the indians were wiped out by Europeans, ie the English, the French, and especially the Spaniards. Why should white Americans take 100% of the blame and auto-guilt when most of the current white American populous are decendents of the Ellis Island immigrants?

No, especially the English.

The French were pretty decent. Their position was come in, establish some trading posts, and leave the indians alone - the French realized two important things. One, trade was better with lots of indians, and two, indians could kick their asses (they were the French, after all!)

The Spanish were considerably more nasty. They wiped out the Caribbeans. Islands make genocide very easy. Then they moved on to crush the Mexica and Inka empires. Y'know, I'm really not going to begrudge them that, because under no rubric were either empire "good guys" - though the Inka fit better than the Mexica, especially after Atawalpa got killed. However, the Spanish didn't do much colonizing. They built missions, and sent white guys over to rule as governors, but there was no major flow of bodies from Spain to Europe. This is why once you get south of the US border, most people are, in fact Indians.

The English though... They did less killing as policy, but htye sure engaged in a whole lot of double-dealing, and kept sending ships of people over to the East Coast, where the cheese-eaters bred, and bred, and bred like rats. It was only to be expected that a major colonization effort would result in what happened in North America. The "indian wars" were almost entirely the product of the English, the English colonies, and then the United States - with minor participation by Canada.

Another group (African-Americans) should also keep that in mind as most white Americans didn't get here till way after the civil war!

And most white Americans, regardless of origin, were more than happy to enjoy the fruits of exploitation, disenfranchisement, and oppression of blacks, right on up into this century! Slavery is just dot #1 on a very big connect-the-dots puzzle of why black people have lots of reasons to be very upset.

Originally posted by Trolloks
To be honest, i never realy understood why you celebrate thanks giving (im from UK by the by).
You celebrate the pilgrams landing at the rock and being fed a feast by the locals, who were the very same locals that we slaughterd, raped, and robbed.
And then you have the same meal every year on the day to say thanks to the natives for their hospitality??
To me it makes no sence at all, in a way its like celebrating the capture of charles manson with a brutal murder.

This is not directed at any members of ATS, but the whole image of thanks giving that the US have put forward.

well, being a 57 year old american, thanksgiving was never about the indians when i grew up. there was all that stupid commercial crap sold to make a buck, but it never had any meaning to me. even the information that we got in school about the pilgrims was soon trashed with a little historical truth. thanksgiving was all about family getting together to eat, catch up on things that had happened during the year, and to tell stories.
how our ancestors wiped out the indian nation was known early on in my childhood, but my grandparents came over from europe, and had nothing to do with their demise. sorry, but i have no guilt...and being in california, the indians are getting the last laugh...their casinos have taken the white man's money and the tribes have been using that money to prosper and grow the next generation. if fact, i worked on the computers for the mi-wuk tribe headquarters here in northern california, and they are in such a rapid state of advancement for their people, that it would make your head spin. it has turned into a real success story. good for them, i say.