Who is to say what is the true way, lol.

Your rational mind, or what you think is rational, is one which laughs at people being tortured, loves innocent people being blown up in iraq.

So who is psychotic here. Do these people harm anyone?

Having attachment to your chosen Belief-System will prevent you from understanding the small and important truths that you wrote about... that's okay, not having a go at you.

Example:-
"To the Tibetan Buddhist mystical advice that you are enlightened when you can look at the hideous demons with acceptance."

This is talking about having reached a large degree of awakening to higher awareness where we can see the limitations of the Duality Concept and therefore see all other Beings as equal Souls to us without the need for small-minded or knee-jerk Judgements.

From my perspective, and if I may say it would seem from the perspective of Jesus as well, that all are equal souls with the spark of life/awareness within. And this allows us to Love all beings no matter what we may have thought about them with our limited human perception.

What makes you think that only one small slice of the population can simulateously be psychotic. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Rom 3:23).

If you think that Psychiatry has never hurt anyone you are grossly misinformeded.Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? (Gal 4:16)

Hi! Another Devil's Advocate here.

I sympathize with all of the people you are talking smack about. I have even been in the shoes of some of your examples personally.

The Shamanic/Buddhist/Witchcraft/Jungian/Occult/Mystical/LSD hippie advice when in these demonic situations is to surrender to the situation. I have read the same story again and again. From shamans in the South American jungle who are left to lie in the same spot with no food and water for days on end for the specific purpose of having demons torment them, so they can become initiated into the spiritual path. To the Tibetan Buddhist mystical advice that you are enlightened when you can look at the hideous demons with acceptance. To the LSD promoter who testifies to enlightenment by being swallowed by dragons. Or what about Jung who embraced his shadow and allowed the horned spirit being Philemon *2 to enter into his being and write channelled through him.

I have personal experience with each of the things you list here.

I am a big fan of Jungian analysis; Jung was such a giant that his version of "psycho-analysis" can be taken as a spirituality or philosophy system unto itself. In short, Jung was an unparalleled genius in the field of psychology.

"Witchcraft"/"the Occult"/"Mysticism"... are all also very enriching studies, experiences, and initiations into larger things in the universe. Larger than human life, larger than dead religions like dogmatic Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, and even dogmatic Buddhism (ie revering Buddha as a god). Those religions are all just the shallow shadows/skeletons of the full body of spirituality that is available for anyone who has the courage to approach these "forbidden" studies. You do not truly have understanding of what is "good" or what is "evil" until you have received these things yourself personally, not just the word of any misinterpreted book or confused pastor who has never experienced anything other than the mundane world.

Shamans of all indigenous peoples eat a variety of intensely psychoactive substances and come to great realization about both the functions of their own minds and of the larger reality that surrounds and informs our minds. Again, for someone who has not experienced these kinds of things, there are no words that could possibly convey the experience. You either get it or you don't, and if you don't, and if you are afraid of it, all you can really do is sit back and accuse others of being "psychotic" and other immature names as you are doing. There is nothing you can say to reach back to the depth of these experiences without knowing first-hand what they are about.

Basically, you are looking at all of these things from the outside and are afraid of them. I have embraced them and consider myself all the better for it, as have many others here apparently. You can think what you want but that is what I personally have to say about it.

Originally posted by Tayesin
Having attachment to your chosen Belief-System will prevent you from understanding the small and important truths that you wrote about... that's okay, not having a go at you.

Example:-
"To the Tibetan Buddhist mystical advice that you are enlightened when you can look at the hideous demons with acceptance."

This is talking about having reached a large degree of awakening to higher awareness where we can see the limitations of the Duality Concept and therefore see all other Beings as equal Souls to us without the need for small-minded or knee-jerk Judgements.

From my perspective, and if I may say it would seem from the perspective of Jesus as well, that all are equal souls with the spark of life/awareness within. And this allows us to Love all beings no matter what we may have thought about them with our limited human perception.

Tayesin... your response to the OP (StopComplaining)...is something i would have said differently.

by having to 'look at' and be 'immersed' within a group of spirit demons, just shows the demons that You are a Warrior Shaman and know their limitations,
it's a showing as to 'whom' is the Alpha in the melee...no matter the degree of wounding.
That is the reason for a shaman to deliberately confront the lower world demons/entities...having met the challenge does not make one 'enlightened' it makes one 'stronger'...
in the eyes of the pedestrian people the shaman/tibetian monk is wigged out/psychotic, but reasonable & good mannered.


the OP went further and posted tis:

posted on 25-10-2009 @ 11:35
by StopComplaining

... DSM-IV the spirituality That underlies Psychiatry ///
The "DSM-IV Religious and Spiritual Problems" document is so patently absurd that it is hard for me to report on it coherently. But I will try to give the reader reasoned insight as I add information and links.//

*1 DSM-IV Religious and Spiritual Problems LESSON 3.8 Shamanic Crisis page 58

the link is not much less than a condemnation of much of the world's 'religious practice'...i.e. those peoples which practice shaminism->
either as the community which believes in the local shaman practice
or the shaman him-self/her-self--- are Anti-Christian


thanks for listening,

Much of what we consider "sick" is culturally determined. Consider alcoholism, for example. Until around 1950, it was considered a moral failing. After that, it was considered an illness.

Homosexuality was considered a disease until just a few decades ago. Now it is not considered a disease. Yes, many people still argue about it, but it's not considered a disease any more, at least in DSM-IV.

A person who talks to God and who hears back from Him is generally considered nuts in current US culture. In ancient times, such a person would have been considered a prophet or a saint. In many cultures even now, such people are honored as being in touch with the Divine.

I think that in the US, a person who is experiencing demons, being cut up and boiled, etc., would be considered unwell. Spiritual possibilities notwithstanding, a person in the US undergoing such an experience would not be receiving the support he would in a community where shamanism is an accepted and respected practice. What might be perfectly acceptable - even desirable - among tribes in Siberia, is likely to require medication in the 21st Century US.

It was fairly obvious to me that OP was a Fundamentalist Christian, by the way he lumped "The Shamanic/Buddhist/Witchcraft/Jungian/Occult/Mystical/LSD hippie..." all together as a single group, as though they all were the same. The only way these beliefs are "the same" is that they're not Christianity.

What the DSM-IV does that OP apparently doesn't like, is to accept that spirituality i diferent among different groups. Psychiatry once considered all spiritual beliefs, including Christianity, to be evidence of pathology. If you believed in God, you believed in something invisible that doesn't exist, and therefore you were crazy. Now psychiatry acknowledges that many otherwise healthy people believe in God, or gods, or spirit guides, etc. Not only do such beliefs not interfere with their lives, in many cases these beliefs give these people the strength to face their problems and overcome them or learn to live with them. Even beliefs that don't agree with Christianity.

So yeah, DSM-IV does talk about spirituality, and it accepts that some folks believe in God, gods, angels, demons, spirits, ghosts, and so on. If they're going to accept your belief in God and Jesus, then they're also going to accept someone else's belief in Krishna or Tao or whatever.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Hi! Another Devil's Advocate here.

Basically, you are looking at all of these things from the outside and are afraid of them. I have embraced them and consider myself all the better for it, as have many others here apparently. You can think what you want but that is what I personally have to say about it.

I am not afraid of them I used to be involved in them also. I am afraid of Allmighty God.

I have just come back from a walk. A guy covered in tattoes came out of his appartment stood by the door screached in a demonic manner and started raising his arms up and down as if in worship of me. I simply rebuked the devil in the name of Jesus Christ.

You don't need to take any nonsense if you are in Christ Jesus. Pillipians 4:13

Originally posted by StopComplaining
I have just come back from a walk. A guy covered in tattoes came out of his appartment stood by the door screached in a demonic manner and started raising his arms up and down as if in worship of me. I simply rebuked the devil in the name of Jesus Christ.

I bet he was really hurting after you did that number on him.

2nd line... hmm... It was a bit chilly out today here in the Blue Ridge.

[edit on 25-10-2009 by bsbray11]

Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Craft = Witchcraft

Your opinions mearly confirm the times we are heading into before the antichrist himself comes to power.