Chemtrails: US Patent #5003186: Stratospheric Welsbach Seeding For Reduction Of Global Warming, page 8

reply to post by weedwhacker

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Hi Weed,
DEFRA is the Department for Food and Rural Affairs in the UK. It is a departmental document, not from one person, and was leaked out. Most posted links to the document in pdf form are now dead. I have found a youtube link with,(I think) most of the document,

www.youtube.com...

Also, yes I know there is already Sulphur in jet fuel.

It is interesting though that the timesonline link to the gang of four that I posted does not require anywhere near the amount of Sulphur as the UK Gov' document.

Just dug this up about Hughes Aircraft:

6123 listed patents for Hughes Aircraft

Another interesting find, a court case between the US government and Hughes Aircraft regarding a patent infringement lawsuit:

Hughes motion requests court to reaffirm earlier decision; $114 million judgement against U.S. Government still in force.

Dunno what it all means but that is a lot of patents and that is a long and expensive court case for a company supposedly "in bed" with the US government.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by AllSeeingI

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I have only seen Chemtrails for sure twice in my life.

Um...that is quite the claim. HOW do you know they were "chemtrails"? Air samples? Please provide your evidence.

I was wondering the same thing. How do you know those two were chemtrails, and not merely contrails that were more pronounced or persistent due to atmospheric conditions?

The only things I have seen that might be called "chemtrails" are once I saw cropduster plane dusting crops with some kind of chemicals or fertilizer, and another time I saw a plane dropping fire retardant onto a fire. I don't know if you call those chemtrails or not but from what I've read, what many people call "chemtrails" sound a lot like "contrails" to me. Even the alleged photographs of chemtrails look like contrails.

Because I do not have air samples, or photos, or a signed confession by the perpetrators DOES NOT end the debate.

If I witnessed a murder yet did not have photos, or blood samples, or a signed confession DOES NOT mean I did not witness a murder.

Crop dusters and fire-fighting aircraft are a completely different sort. They operate within 1,000 ft of the ground and are completely irrelevant to this debate. I expect even a lay-person to be able to identify the difference between crop dusting, firefighting, and high flying airliners producing contrails or Chemtrails as easily as we can tell the difference between a Cardinal and an Eagle (Size, shape, color, and most importantly: behavior).

When I saw the Chemtrail activity with my own eyes I KNEW it was suspicious because of the behavior of the aircraft(s) and the behavior of the clouds.

Let me explain my eye-witness account:
I was out of town for the weekend at a friend's cabin. In the north USA. I am reluctant to give out to much personal details due to my paranoia and ATS rules.

Anyways... I was outdoors all day on a Saturday on the lake. I was in observance of the same sky all day from 9am to sundown.

The morning began crystal clear. It was a hot mid-summer day about 2 years ago. When we headed out for morning fishing and lunch on the pontoon boat I remember seeing the occasional airliner cruising on by leaving no trails. Around 10am a white four-engine aircraft (I believe to have been a KC-135) at cruising altitude leaving a thick white billowing cloud behind it.

Now with regards to my visual acuity and perception. I have perfect vision and during college was a member of the competitive aviation team, one event is called ACID: Aircraft Identification.

Back to the eye-witness account: I saw this aircraft fly from sky's edge to sky's edge carving a single cloud into the sky. Withing a few minutes a second IDENTICAL aircraft about 5 miles parallel to the original entered and flew a direct parallel to the first trail. Both aircraft were present in the same sky for a few minutes.

As I watched closely I witnessed a suspiciously large cloud being put out DIRECTLY behind the aircraft. It appeared to be trailing from many points along the aircraft wing INCLUDING the wing tips.

I watched the clouds themselves closely as I became increasingly suspicious. The cloud did not appear to behave like a normal cloud. It seemed to spread and expand with unusually strong intent.

The clouds hung in the sky without moving much. But they did spread. They grew thick and seemed to increase with depth and size overtime without the slightest amount of dissipation.

Around 11am I witnessed a similar, or the same, aircraft enter the sky from the opposite direction 180 degrees from where the first trails were initiated. This aircraft flew another parallel to the first two lines. Creating three thick parallel lines in the sky with not another single cloud in the sky.

A few minutes later another similar aircraft proceeded along side the 3rd trail creating a total of 4 parallel trails in the sky by around 12pm.

During this period I witnessed a number of other aircraft in the sky at various altitudes. Including airliners of similar altitude to the spray aircraft leaving NO TRAILS. The other aircraft which I witnessed varied from small 2 engine commercial airliners to the occasional larger 4-engine types at cruising altitudes.

This spraying behavior continued through the afternoon until by 4pm there were 10 parallel trails laid out across the sky as if in a search pattern or lawn-mowing pattern. The trails increased in size as the day went on. The first clouds spread out and by 4 pm the original trails were unnoticeable. What remained was and evenly dispersed haze the blanketed the sky.

The last time I saw the aircraft was around 3 or 4pm. By around 6pm all but the last made trails had spread out completely creating a FULL SKY BLANKET of haze. Still no other clouds or contrails were created this day from any other aircraft and various altitudes.

Were it not for this pattern of parallel trails the sky would have been clear and blue all day and into the evening.

Now before the obvious questions arise I will address them.

Q. Why did I not take video or photos of this?
A. This event which I describe was my awakening to the Chemtrail question. As the event unfolded above me I did not begin to pay close attention until about the 3 or 4th waves of aircraft. I saw the whole thing unfold above me. But was not seriously suspicious until late in the day. At which point I did seek a camera but there was none on the boat. (I didnt head out that day hunting for Chemtrails.) By the time I got back to the cabin it was 5pm and the clouds were entirely a haze but the last two and the aircraft were gone. The photos would have been meaningless.

Q. That is a convenient story about having no camera.
A. Considering that now I realize how important this day was to awakening me to the suspicious activity I am remorseful to say the least that a camera was not on hand. I believe a daylong time lapse video of this event would be shocking to most people. Like Andrew Dufrense said in Shawshank Redemption when asked to provide proof of his story "I find it decidedly INCONVENIENT that I cannot".

I have seen plenty of regular contrails. In fact I suspect that about 99% of the trails left by aircraft seen are normal contrails put out by regular everyday airliners. These clouds mimic car exhaust. More visible the colder it gets. Also how fast they dissipate depends on the temperature.

A normal contrail will dissipate with some degree over time. They may spread but they will dissipate in intensity to some degree.

More than this though I propose that the BEHAVIOR of the clouds and the aircraft is more usable proof of some artificial cloud forming activity. Patterns of similar aircraft creating cloud patterns which would be logical if ones intent was to FILL THE SKY with a haze.

This debate is constantly derailed and overgeneralized by the uninformed who take photos of regular contrails and post them as proof of Chemtrails. Often these attempts are easily debunked by the avid debunker.

These debunkings serve the purpose of generalizing that the ENTIRE Chemtrail question is debunked. When, of course, this is an ignorant over generalization.

I am hoping this thread will encourage others TO HELP ME continue to search for the truth about these activities. To say ANYONE can prove that a secret program DOES NOT exist is preposterous. This thread is about a search for truth. If this patent turns out to not be attached to the actual suspicious activity; it will not close the debate or prove to me that Chemtrails do not exist.

[edit on (10/30/09) by AllSeeingI]

A very interesting article:

GlobalResearch: Chemtrails: Aerosol and Electromagnetic Weapons in the Age of Nuclear War

North America is now suffering its seventh year of conspicuous and dangerous aerosol and electromagnetic operations conducted by the U.S. government under the guise of national security. Concerned citizens watch in fear as military tankers discolor the skies with toxic chemicals that morph into synthetic clouds.

1. At least part of the aerosol project has been dubbed Operation Cloverleaf,7 probably due to its multi-faceted operations, which include: weather modification, military communications, space weapons development, ozone and global warming research plus biological weaponry and detection testing.

2. Dumping tons of particulate matter from aircraft has geo-engineered our planetary atmosphere into a highly charged, electrically-conductive plasma useful for military projects.8 The air we breathe is laden with asbestos-sized synthetic fibers and toxic metals, including barium salts, aluminum, and reportedly, radioactive thorium.9 These materials act as electrolytes to enhance conductivity of military radar and radio waves.10 Poisonous on par with arsenic and a proven suppressant of the human immune system,11 atmospheric barium weakens human muscles, including those of the heart.12 Inhaled aluminum goes directly to the brain and medical specialists confirm that it causes oxidative stress within brain tissue, leading to formation of Alzheimer's like neurofibrillary tangles.13 Radioactive thorium is known to cause leukemia and other cancers.14

3. Only a small percentage of the military's atmospheric modification projects are visibly obvious. What we can't see is equally dangerous. The ionosphere, the earth and its inhabitants are continually bombarded with high frequency microwaves used to manipulate the charged atmosphere for weather modification, information gathering and for tectonic (earthquake-producing) weaponry.15 Independent chemtrail researcher Clifford Carnicom confirms that we are also continuously subjected to extremely low electromagnetic frequencies (ELF) pulsing at 4 hertz multiples, frequencies known to profoundly affect human biological and mental functioning.

Panic in Ukraine, Authorities deny aircraft are spraying aerosols over cities, Martial Law expected

It was reported that light aircraft were seen over the Forest market area of the city (close to the Forest metro station) and they were spraying an aerosol substance intended to “counter swine flu”, this of course would constitute forced medication of the population.

Reports of helicopters and light airplanes spraying aerosols over Kiev, Lviv, Ternopil, and other cities throughout Ukraine are tonight flooding online forums and websites, hundreds of people have verified the reports with their own eye-witness accounts.

[edit on (11/2/09) by AllSeeingI]

UK Guardian: Investment in geo-engineering needed immediately, says Royal Society

Techniques such as CO2 removal and radiation reflection are 'untested parachutes' until they are rigorously tested, it says

The Royal Society: royalsociety.org

The Royal Society: Geoengineering the climate: science, governance and uncertainty - 1 Sep 2009

Solar Radiation Management (SRM) techniques, which reflect a small percentage of the sun's light and heat back into space. These methods act quickly, and so may represent the only way to lower global temperatures quickly in the event of a climate crisis.

Deposition of a Polish Aircraft Mechanic

sherriequestioningall.blogspot.com...

There may be truth to this afterall............

Why do I have thoughts of an alien invasion of human beings 6000 years ago with a deadline coming for anhiliation of mankind and total control of the lesser breed of thier kind? Nah.....that could never be...I'm just nuts!

reply to post by toddhawley

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Sorry, toddhawley.

This same story has been floating around the Internet for many years now...this is just a new twist (from someone's imagination) by putting the original narrative into 'Polish', then apparently 'translating' back into English. The original version was allegedly from a mechanic in the US, and was shown to be completely without merit.

Particularly notable is the reference to the 'Union' and the alleged intervention of 'union' officials...this mirrors almost exactly the original (debunked) version.

A simple search finds some things...firstly, the only 'major' airline in Poland is the former National Airline, LOT. Since the retreat of communism, it is of course more privately held, and capitalistic (although i imagine it may still receive substantial financial subsidy from the Polish Gov't). And, in the spirit of the Polish 'solidarity' mnovement from Lech Walensa's (sp?) era, there ARE unions at LOT Polish Airlines. However, the original narrative of this "story" was spoken in a tone and 'voice' that was decidedly more American, especially in reference to the "Union".

Here, I've included snippets from my few minutes of research:

The Mechanics’ Trade Union (Związek Zawodowy Mechaników, ZZM)

(skip)

The unionisation level among sector employees is relatively high, oscillating between 50% for some vocational categories and 80% for others. For example, of the 750 cabin crew, almost 650 are members of some union.

Jumping out here...in the United States, there is no way the cabin crew (flight attendants) would be members of "some" union!! One, or nothing at all is the rule...

NSZZ S generally passes for the most numerous union, followed by the ZZPP and by the ZZM

Towards the late 1980s, LOT employees were represented only by the Transport and Road Workers Trade Union (Związek Zawodowy Transportowców i Drogowców, ZZTD), an organisation affiliated with the All-Poland Alliance of Trade Unions (Ogólnopolskie Porozumienie Związków Zawodowych, OPZZ). As with other sectors of the Polish economy, the greatest shifts on the union scene occurred in late 1989 and early 1990. OPZZ lost its monopoly, and NSZZ S emerged from underground; what’s more, many vocational groups seized on the new freedoms and proceeded to establish smaller unions of their own. As far as LOT is concerned, union activists seem to believe that the number of union organisations steadily developed, keeping pace with growth of the airline itself, to where there are now seven.

Unfortunately, these unions have not penetrated LOT’s fledgling low-cost carrier, Centralwings, and there is little to suggest that this state of affairs will change any time in the near future. When LOT established its low-cost subsidiary, the unions operating within its employing structure made it known to their members that those of them who take up work in Centralwings will automatically forego union protection.

Social dialogue in the sector is carried on between the unions enumerated above and the directors of PLL LOT, the latter affiliated with Poland’s Ministry of Infrastructure (Ministerstwo Infrastruktury, MI) (it will be recalled that the State Treasury retains a major stake in the airline). There is no employer organisation, a logical product of a sector structure comprising one major airline and a single airport operator.

Some union activists are of the opinion that the considerable fragmentation of the union movement in Poland’s aviation industry impedes social dialogue in that the collective good is often eclipsed by the narrower, often contradictory interests of specific vocational groups.

Source = 74.125.93.132...:Wb64y5AGZPkJ:www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2005/08/word/pl0505103s.doc+lot+polish+airlines+mechanics+union&cd=3&hl= en&ct=clnk&gl=us


Just so you know, I AM a member of a union, the Airline Pilots Association, or 'ALPA'. ALPA also has affiliations with groups in other nations, the IFALPA and, in the UK, BALPA.

I have more than a passing familiarity with unions, and the aviation business, as I've worked within it for three decades.

Also, I can assure you there are NO SUCH devices onboard the passenger jets, as "described" in that narrative. Firstly, every pilot would have to know about the "spraying" apparatus, and associated equipment. There would, by the implication of that "story", have to be a way to control or activate from inside the cockpit. No such thing exists.

Secondly, the most laughable part is the assertion that the static wicks are fake, and used as the "sprayers"!! That is quite hilarious. The static wicks are quite easy to see, when you walk around on a preflight...they are less than a 1/4-inch in diameter (sometimes smaller). They are comprised of strands of wire, in a plastic sleeve. The ends of the wire hang out about 1/2-inch or so. Anyone with any aviation knowledge just laughs at this "story"....

reply to post by AllSeeingI

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Noticed a few new chemtrail threads popping up and the same ol debunking strategies in play.

Because of people like YOU who have been bamboozled by the nonsense.

This "Welsbach" patent idea has been thoroughly trounced.

"Chemtrail" posters on ATS simple parrot the same, same, same ol' crap they read about at the same, same, same ol' junk "chemtrail" websites, who themselves are thoroughly debunked, many times over.

ONCE this baloney gets put onto the Web, it is viral...THAT is the true danger of "chemtrails"....

But, let's examine all the MANY 'beliefs'? NO? I won't bother, here...so many other ATS threads have already done...


The "chemtrailers", in essence, make a variety of outrageous claims, up to and including commercial passenger airliners are involved in this (they ARE NOT, BTW!) and when that gets pointed out, 'they' alter their tactics, and just keep moving goalposts.

YOUR "Welsbach" patent thread is a clear example of this method of distraction.

There is NO consensus among these various "claims"...just pure speculation, littered with incredibly bad scientific claims, and many, many outright deceptions, lies, and misrepresentations.


The only thing is...this "Welsbach" patent idea COULD, someday, be put to use. IF, and only IF, it becomes a dire enough situation, regarding the Global climate, AND if there is international agreement on it.

THEN, it will NOT be 'secret'!!! (Sheesh!! The patent itself is no secret...how paranoid can people get, when they lose all logic and reasoning abilities?)

Get it yet?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by AllSeeingI

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This "Welsbach" patent idea has been thoroughly trounced.

Where ? When ? I have yet to see you make any convincing arguments that refutes the fact that the possibility exists for this type of activity to be taking place.

Please show me your points where you broke my back in this argument. Make your points and I will counter them.

Again and again I see you cling to your same weak arguments, but fail to answer certain aspects of my argument which prove the failure in your logic

[edit on (5/9/10) by AllSeeingI]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by AllSeeingI

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The "chemtrailers", in essence, make a variety of outrageous claims, up to and including commercial passenger airliners are involved in this (they ARE NOT, BTW!) and when that gets pointed out, 'they' alter their tactics, and just keep moving goalposts.

Commercial airliners are not involved. This is the type of uninformed argument which discredits the chemtrail conspiracy theorists. Uniformed newly anointed chemtrailers who have just awoken to the possibility are learning to swim in the pool of knowledge about this subject. Understandably they splash and will make a mess of things from time to time, but like children we must encourage their efforts to learn and grow.

As for moving goal posts: well as long as the end result is the TRUTH, what is the harm or shame in that? I tell you if I see something suspicious going on and I discover and rule out it is not my 1st suspicion but am still unsure what it is....I dont just say "OH WELL FU@K IT it must be ok" NO! I continue investigating until I find the truth.

What shocks me most is how close-minded people are to the possibility of such programs existing. When the powerful governments, people, and organizations have been conducting secret programs and experiments for centuries without the knowledge of the general public. Some of these very programs far exceed the rationality and believability of the chemtrail conspiracy.

That a secret program/experiment could exist involving government tankers like the KC135 spraying a substance into the high atmosphere between 30,000ft-55,000. The purpose of which could range from anything from reflecting sunlight, to some unknown future tech we cannot even imagine.... the tech which the top levels of government and military posses is always 50 years beyond what we can imagine. This has been proven time and time again as techs are disclosed.... they talk about when they were in test phases 20-30 years ago and the public had no knowledge; Common practice really.

So being that such an environment of secrecy and mentality exists... cant you at least admit that it is possible?

If you can not then you are truly close-minded and naive to a fault.

[edit on (5/9/10) by AllSeeingI]

reply to post by AllSeeingI

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Finally!! Some headway....

Commercial airliners are not involved.

BUT then, you get a second statement correct! Wow!

This is the type of uninformed argument which discredits the chemtrail conspiracy theorists.

However, IT IS THOSE SAME "theorists" who are claiming that it IS commercial jet airliers!!! THEY are making those claims! You cannot say anyone else is putting words into their mouths...

Now...let's see the rest of your mind at work:

What shocks me most is how close-minded people are to the possibility of such programs existing.

What shocks me is the level of paranoia at work here.

When the powerful governments, people, and organizations have been conducting secret programs and experiments for centuries without the knowledge of the general public.

Irrelelevant, fallacious arguement. There have been such activities, but certainly NOT on such a grand scale as the "chemtrail" believers are suggesting...

That a secret program/experiment could exist involving government tankers like the KC135 spraying a substance into the high atmosphere between 30,000ft-55,000.

Certainly, a "secret" program could exist...but, IF you, or anyone else, wishes to "out" them, then it is dead easy.

United States Air Force operated 454 KC-135s (184 active duty, 64 reserve, and 206 guard) as of September 2008.

From en.wikipedia.org...

Also, from that link, you can research where all of those airplanes are based. Both the ANG and USAF Wings.

THEN, just get out, and watch them! Get people to camp out, near the bases, and take notes, when they depart, when they return, etc. See if the USAF or ANG publishes schedules of their training exercises. Investigate the USAF, and its roster of pilots...find out how many hours each crewmwmber actually gets to fly, every month. This should not, for the most part, be "top secret" stuff.

To be honest, IF you bother to check, you may find morale a bit low, amongst Air Force pilots, because they DON'T get to fly as often as they'd like. They have to "fly" desks way too much for their tastes....

BTW, you cited "55,000 feet" up there...looky here:

Performance
...
Service ceiling: 50,000 ft

They will NOT be able to reach that maximum service ceiling when fully loaded. Not by a long shot. IF you don't understand that, about modern jets, then I'd suggest a short learning curve about aerodynamics and aircraft performance limitations, so you can comprehend why.

The purpose of which could range from anything from reflecting sunlight, to some unknown future tech we cannot even imagine....

Sure...could being the operative word, there.

But, as I pointed out already, it would (if related to Earth's albedo alteration) be only conducted under International agreement (What? you don't think OTHER nations have means to see what each other is doing??)

Of ocurse, "unknown future tech" is pure speculation. It amounts to a tempest in a teapot, and more 'paranoia'.

... the tech which the top levels of government and military posses is always 50 years beyond what we can imagine.

"always"??? Quite a broad brush of claim, there...

Again. More speculation, and paranoia (unwarranted) since it is JUST an imagination....

... then you are truly close-minded and naive to a fault.

No, I am NOT close-minded, and certainly not naive. I have a basis and am grounded in reality, and logical, realistic thinking.

Sure, LOTS of top-secret, high-tech programs are under development at any given time...but you have to remember, THIS ENTIRE CONCEPT of so-called "chemtrails" came about because of t he "uninformed", as you called them, mistaking normal contrails for something sinister.

It has grown into a cottage industry, of sorts, and a ripe plum to pick for the greedy hucksters that see they can foist nonsense on the gullible, and make a profit from it.

Now, about reality....let's dispel this "covering the skies artificially" notion by using a real-world, recent comparison to Mother Nature.

I have read that the volcano in Iceland was able to spew about 750 TONS of ash, PER SECOND, at its height of eruption. How long that continued, I know not. Minutes? Hours?

Keeping that figure in mind, you can do some math. Simple multiplication. THEN, try doing more, but divide up how many loads, at what capacity, and the number of them, that would be needed to reproduce that quantity, in the KC-135s (assuming the attempt would ever be made).

Then, take a look at the actual records of the ash cloud extent, from the Iceland volcano. How much area did it cover? How effective was it at altering the surface climate? How visible was it???

Even with a fleet of ~400 airplanes, with a finite capacity per each, and a requirement to spend time to takeoff, climb, do their "deed", then return, land, get "re-loaded", and repeat. ALL needing to be operated by the Humans, who have limits to their own endurance, and with a limited number of people available...

Do some maths. SEE if it is even feasible for humans to compare with Mother Nature, in that regard.

Enjoy!

Koyaanisqatsi - 1982

Koyaanisqatsi: Life out of Balance.

Ancient Hopi Native American Indian prophecy: The choral piece near the end of the film, "Prophecies", is sung in the Hopi dialect. The translation is: "If we dig precious things from the land, we will invite disaster. Near the Day of Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky. A container of ashes might one day be thrown from the sky, which could burn the land and boil the oceans."

Cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky!

News from New Zealand regarding the Chemtrail Phenomenon...

New Zealand Military Releases UFO Files

Here is the piece of the article which I believe pertains to Chemtrail activity:

Among the reports that have been uploaded so far are details of a 1999 sighting of what appeared to be aircraft contrails above the sky in Auckland, during which the writer reportedly warns, "A vast many people in Auckland will suffer flu-like sickness."

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