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Chemtrails: US Patent #5003186: Stratospheric Welsbach Seeding For Reduction Of Global Warming

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posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 12:30 AM
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science.nasa.gov...

June 20, 2003: One night soon, people on the eastern seaboard of the United States might see some strange clouds in the sky: milky white, glowing and twisting in the wind. The clouds will be manmade, created by scientists to study Earth's ionosphere--a layer of our atmosphere near the edge of space.

Three rockets launched from the NASA Wallops Flight Facility, Wallops Island, Va., will release a chemical called trimethylaluminum (TMA) into the air 90 km to 175 km above the Atlantic Ocean. TMA burns spontaneously in the presence of oxygen. The harmless by-products of this glowing reaction will be visible from coastal Virginia, North Carolina, Maryland, New Jersey, Washington DC, and possibly parts of lower New York and Pennsylvania.

The launches will take place between 9:30 pm and 5:00 a.m. on a night yet to be decided between June 23rd and July 10th. The time and date depends in part on clear skies at two of three special camera sites located along the Virginia and North Carolina coasts.

Members of the public can keep track of the mission by calling the NASA Wallops Flight Facility launch status line at: 757/824-2050. A pre-recorded message will be promptly updated when launches begin. NASA will also have a web site with text updates and live video of the launches during the mission at www.wff.nasa.gov...

The clouds will allow scientists to monitor winds in the ionosphere, explains Gregory Earle from the University of Texas in Dallas, the lead researcher for the project. "They will act as a tracer and allow us to view the winds at various altitudes over a period of time."

This is important because of space weather. The ionosphere is a critical link in the chain of Sun-Earth interactions. Solar flares and radiation from sunspots break apart molecules and ionize atoms in Earth's upper atmosphere--this is how the ionosphere is formed. The ionosphere, in turn, affects such things as radio communications and Global Positioning System reception on Earth.


"The data gathered from this project will aid in our understanding of the relationship between the winds and ionospheric activity," says Earle. This research may one day lead to better forecasting of space weather effects on satellites, communications and power systems.

There will be four rockets launched, but only three will release TMA: the first, second and fourth rockets. The third rocket carries only scientific instruments. The TMA will be released over the Atlantic Ocean at altitudes from 56 miles (90 kilometers) to 109 miles (175 kilometers). The clouds will take about four to five minutes to form after the TMA release and remain visible for approximately 20 minutes.

There will be about 90 minutes between the launch of the first, second and third rockets. The third and fourth rockets will be launched about 10 minutes apart. The actual period between launches will be decided in real-time as the mission occurs.

NASA has used TMA for decades as part of rocket studies from sites worldwide to study the near-space environment. TMA burns slowly and produces visible light that can be tracked visually and with special camera equipment.


The products of the reaction, when TMA is exposed to air or water, are aluminum oxide, carbon dioxide and water. Aluminum oxides are commonly used to combat heartburn and to purify drinking water. TMA poses no threat to the public during preparation on the ground or during the release in Earth's atmosphere.

The project is a NASA and multi-university effort. In addition to the University of Texas, students and personnel from Clemson University and Utah State University are participating in the mission.




posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 12:33 AM
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reply to post by wanderingwaldo
 

The CARE experiment.

Is there some way in which a small cloud of material released at an altitude of 173 miles above the Earth's surface (100 miles above the upper limits of the atmosphere) has anything to do with "chemtrails"?


[edit on 10/26/2009 by Phage]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 12:33 AM
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www.livescience.com...
NASA Rocket to Create Clouds Tuesday

By Clara Moskowitz, Staff Writer

posted: 14 September 2009 12:21 pm ET

A rocket experiment set to launch Tuesday aims to create artificial clouds at the outermost layers of Earth's atmosphere.

The project, called the Charged Aerosol Release Experiment (CARE), plans to trigger cloud formation around the rocket's exhaust particles. The clouds are intended to simulate naturally-occurring phenomena called noctilucent clouds, which are the highest clouds in the atmosphere.

"This is really essentially at the boundary of space," said Wayne Scales, a scientist at Virginia Tech who will use computer models to study the physics of the artificial dust cloud as it's released. "Nothing like this has been done before and that's why everybody's really excited about it."

The experiment is the first attempt to create artificial noctilucent clouds. A previous spacecraft, called Aeronomy of Ice in the Mesosphere (AIM), launched in 2007 to observe the natural clouds from space.

CARE is slated to launch Tuesday between 7:30 and 7:57 p.m. EDT (2330 and 2357 GMT) from NASA's Wallops Flight Facility in Virginia.

Noctilucent means "night shining" in Latin. Although difficult to spot with the naked eye, the clouds are best visible when Earth's surface is in darkness and sunlight from below the horizon illuminates the high-altitude clouds.

These clouds, also known as polar mesospheric clouds, are made of ice crystals. The natural ones tend to hover around 50 to 55 miles (80 to 90 km) above the Earth. CARE will release its dust particles a bit higher than that, then let them settle back down to a lower altitude.

"What the CARE experiment hopes to do is to create an artificial dust layer," Scales told SPACE.com. "Hopefully it's a creation in a controlled sense, which will allow scientists to study different aspects of it, the turbulence generated on the inside, the distribution of dust particles and such."

CARE is a project of the Naval Research Laboratory and the Department of Defense Space Test Program. The spacecraft will launch aboard a NASA four-stage Black Brant XII suborbital sounding rocket.

Scientists will study its progress from ground based instruments as well as the STP/NRL STPSat-1 spacecraft in Earth orbit. Researchers will track the CARE dust cloud for days or even months to study its behavior and development over time.

Because the optical observations are crucial, the launch can only take place if the weather is clear both at the launch site and at multiple observation stations along the Atlantic coast and in Bermuda.

If CARE cannot launch Tuesday, the team can try again between Sept. 16 and Sept. 20.



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by wanderingwaldo
 

The CARE experiment.

Is there some way in which a small cloud of material released at an altitude of 173 miles above the Earth's surface (100 miles above the upper limits of the atmosphere) has anything to do with "chemtrails"?


[edit on 10/26/2009 by Phage]


These are charged particle clouds; they are released so high for a good dispersion field in the lower atmosphere where they become active. This is an alternate delivery method mentioned in the VT Presentation slides.

[edit on 26-10-2009 by wanderingwaldo]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 01:09 AM
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reply to post by wanderingwaldo
 

What to you mean "become active"? Each day the solar wind injects huge quantities of charged particles into the ionosphere. When we get exposed to a nice CME that number really goes up, that's why we get really nice auroral displays. All those charged particles are entering the Earth's atmosphere and lighting up. Each year 40,000 tons of dust falls to Earth from space. Do you really think that the 250 pounds of dust released in the CARE experiment amounts to a hill of beans?

The purpose of the experiment was to study the ionosphere (including its effects on communications) and the formation of noctilucent clouds. It had nothing to do with the lower atmosphere. By the time the dust enters the atmosphere it will be so dispersed that it will be indistinguishable from the rest of the natural dust.

The CARE experiment was not an "alternate delivery method". There is only one way to get the dust 173 miles into space, a rocket.


[edit on 10/26/2009 by Phage]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 01:25 AM
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Ummm this is a patent...not a business plan, budget and delivery???
Have I missed something here?



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 02:58 AM
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Originally posted by doctorvannostren
The whole chemtrail issue is bologna. I see these things in the everyday over the skies of DC. Maybe there is some kind of cover-up, but theres no way PTB are poisoning themselves, their families, and the thousands of high ranking gov't officials that reside and work in this area. So as far as Im concerned,


I think they're willing to take the risk that it MIGHT be harmful to some people, rather than risking global warning and certainly harm everyone.



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 03:36 AM
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Originally posted by doctorvannostren
The whole chemtrail issue is bologna. I see these things in the everyday over the skies of DC. Maybe there is some kind of cover-up, but there is no way PTB are poisoning themselves, their families, and the thousands of high ranking gov't officials that reside and work in this area. So as far as Im concerned,


We should not ASSUME that because it is secret or covered-up that it is a plan to poison us. There are plenty of other reasons to keep such activity quiet:
-Fear of panic.
-Fear of public knowledge of long-term health effects.
-Technology confidentiality
The reasons and purposes to keep it quiet range far and wide just as do the reason and purposes to conduct Chemtrail activity... whatever it may be. I dont know whats going on... But I know something IS going on...and that is enough cause to research and write threads like these.


The so-called "CHEMTRAILS" conspiracy has many misconceptions about it. But if we use logic, I believe we can ferret out some false-hoods.

1st Misconception about Chemtrails:
"Chemtrails are a direct poison to kill us. "
- If the goal was to poison us or give us a virus, there are many other ways which would be more efficient, less costly, and less obvious.

Also, as you stated, "WHY WOULD THEY POISON THEMSELVES?". They would not.

This is a false choice often presented in Chemtrail discussions: "Either Chemtrails are out to kill us, or there are no Chemtrails."


2nd Misconception about Chemtrails:
"The WORD 'Chemtrails' means that chemicals are being used."
- This could be false. Who knows what substance(s) really is being tested or used? Theories range from metallic dusts, hot water, nano technology, sand, ice, and yes a wide range of chemicals.

The word 'Chemtrails' may confuse and disinform the casual researcher and first-timers to the Chemtrail discussion.


3rd Misconception about Chemtrails
"Every cloud formed in the sky by airplanes is a Chemtrail."
- ABSOLUTLEY NOT!!! 99% of the clouds put out by airliners are NORMAL and not part of this conspiracy. It takes a trained eye to tell the difference.

I am sure there are more misconceptions about Chemtrails.
Please chime in if you can help me out...




Common traits of the Chemtrail activity which have been expressed by eye-witnesses across the globe are:

--A clear pattern: "Mowing-the-lawn" or "X's" patterns of a single cruising altitude aircraft or a number of similar large 4-engine aircraft.

--You will never see a single Chemtrail all alone! Always you will see a pattern and a pattern of trails. (This can be difficult to discern from regular airway traffic or major airport related activity). If you want to have a look at what airways exists around you home you can purchase an VFR sectional chart map of your area for $10-$15. You should also get an IFR chart too... because airliners fly on IFR airways and those are not listed on regular airway charts. My Pilot Store: Flight Charts

--A trained eye can note the behavior of the cloud. How it spreads out and GROWS and and does not dissipate with time. (THIS IS A TOUGH ONE - because some normal contrails persist.)

--Chemtrail activity takes place in the HOT SUMMER months (which lends credence to the 'fighting global warming' theory). This also explains

--Chemtrail activity seems to take place when the skies are cloudless to begin with.

I would love if I could get ANY eye-witnesses to confirm or refute any of my eye-witness claims.
Are they similar to yours?
Tell us about your Experience...

[edit on (10/26/09) by AllSeeingI]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 05:35 AM
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This is interesting:

It seems David B. Chang, one of the two inventors, was doing some work with NASA and General Dynamics WAY back in 1965. Here is a paper we worked on...

Theoretical Studies of Space Plasmas

AND I-fu Shih has done some work with a company called Delco Electronics developing a heads up display for NASCAR drivers.

www.theautochannel.com: The Racing EyeCue

"Dave Schnelker, Ning Wu, I-Fu Shih of Delco Electronics Corporation and Ed Rothrock of Bell Sports have been awarded the 30th annual Schwitzer Award for their design of the Racing EyeCue."

"The Racing EyeCue is an optical heads-up display of data and information weighing 3 ½ ounces that has been made into an attachment for a driver's helmet. "This award is like a Nobel Prize for technical people"

[edit on (10/26/09) by AllSeeingI]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 06:25 AM
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It is possible nano-technology is being used in the Chemtrails. Here is a short article form 2003 discussing some possible methods.

Nanotechnology could save the ozone layer



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 07:31 AM
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This Science journal just published in August of 2008 suggests using Sulfates and sulphur-enhanced fuel additives employed to emit aerosol precursors in a jet engine exhaust stream.

AUG 2008: An Overview Of Geoengineering Of Climate
Using Stratospheric Sulphate Aerosols


"Two rather conservative injection scenarios are evaluated, both assume baseline emission equivalent to approximately 2.5 Tg S yrK1 (which ultimately forms approx. 10 Tg of particles) as follows: (i) insertion of a primary aerosol, such as fine sulphate particles, using an injector mounted aboard an aircraft platform cruising in the lower stratosphere and (ii) sulphur-enhanced fuel additives employed to emit aerosol precursors in a jet engine exhaust stream. In each case injection is assumed to occur uniformly between 15 and 25 km"
-Page 8

[edit on (10/26/09) by AllSeeingI]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by OzWeatherman
 



That correct.

Just wanted to add that contrail presence is an indicator as its an indicator that humidity is on the increase in the upper atmopshere. Due to the mechanisms of cold frontas this should be apparent (thats if you know how cold fronts work of course). Amatuer forecasters and proffesionals alike have been using this as an indicator for years

On the OP, while it is an interesting read, and while I agree it would work in theory....it doesnt mean its occured.


Nor does it mean that it has not occurred.

Do you believe the government informs its citizens of experimental technology that may be proprietary and/or dangerous in nature? They would not as it could be quite disastrous if it were to "get into the wrong hands" so to speak. For years the US Government performed environmentally damaging research in areas of Maryland and Delaware that they are just now opening to the public, and then only as it was necessary for "clean up" solicitations. I am certain there were conspiracy theorists then arguing that they were creating bio-weapons and others, like you, arguing against it for lack of evidence and/or more "reasonable" theories.

What if this is similar to the "cloud seeding" being performed by Russia and China? Perhaps, this is Phase II or III research? The possibilities are endless for what the human will research and/or experiment with. Look at the RFPs coming out by ONR and NASA. To negate the entire idea is rather limiting the abilities of one's brain to seek out answers.

To deny the possibility of chemtrails being research and/or a governmental program is to not understand the nature of governmental proprietary ("confidential") information, let alone that of "Secret" programs. If it has been theorized, they have experimented with it. That is the nature of our contractor-driven economy.



Contrails themselves have a better albedo for reflecting and trapping in heat alone, than anything other than snow. Coincidently I actually started a thread at the same time as you explaining the implications of this

www.abovetopsecret.com...

A star for your effort though


Something about this did not sit right with me, OzWeatherman. I certainly hope you are not being dismissive to your fellow poster and meant that with a happy spirit. Were I to get a " A star for your effort though" I would feel it a condescending pat on the head, and, well, that is not very respectful.


reply to post by wanderingwaldo

What to you mean "become active"? Each day the solar wind injects huge quantities of charged particles into the ionosphere. When we get exposed to a nice CME that number really goes up, that's why we get really nice auroral displays. All those charged particles are entering the Earth's atmosphere and lighting up. Each year 40,000 tons of dust falls to Earth from space. Do you really think that the 250 pounds of dust released in the CARE experiment amounts to a hill of beans?

The purpose of the experiment was to study the ionosphere (including its effects on communications) and the formation of noctilucent clouds. It had nothing to do with the lower atmosphere. By the time the dust enters the atmosphere it will be so dispersed that it will be indistinguishable from the rest of the natural dust.

The CARE experiment was not an "alternate delivery method". There is only one way to get the dust 173 miles into space, a rocket. [edit on 10/26/2009 by Phage]


I would think that the only people who know what CARE's full implications and intentions are would be the program officer, the SES oversight manager, and the scientists with a clearance beside their name.

We cannot guess the breadth of any government program until we are on it, therefore, I feel it is somewhat short-sighted to dismiss the possibility of any program--especially those funded by NASA, ONR, or NRL as being solely what they release to the public. Wouldn't exactly make for an effective program if they did otherwise.

I have worked on programs before with a "public face" and a classified portion. There were things we could say and things we could not. There were levels of secrecy on the project and each of us only got our tiny portion to work on.

I am not entirely certain of the purpose of those posters that must dismiss any theories put forth by other posters. They are theories because they cannot be proven or disproven at this present time. The are presenting what meager information that can be culled by FOIA, and that, is truly lean information. Nothing currently in classified research can be distributed to the public.

If there was a chemtrail program neither you nor I would or could know about it. It is absurdity to state definitively that if there was such a program that we would know about it, ergo why do we treat those that conjecture its existence as though they are naive rubes?



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by A Fortiori
 

The point is that persistent contrails form as a result of atmospheric conditions. They have been observed for a very long time. Other than a lack of understanding about the science behind their formation there is no reason to believe that the persistent contrails we see today are any different than the persistent contrails which were seen in WWII and earlier.

I rarely see contrails, persistent or otherwise. Does that mean I just happen to live in a location that is blessed with being ignored by this massive "spraying" effort, or could it be because I live in the tropics where the conditions rarely are favorable for contrail formation.

Yes, there is cloud seeding going on. Yes, there have occasionally been chemical releases outside of the atmosphere. No, these activities do not have anything to do with contrails or "chemtrails".

[edit on 10/26/2009 by Phage]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 12:05 PM
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Military experiment like the chemtrails is difficult to prove! And if you do, you will probably only get 1 post on this forum.......



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by AllSeeingI
reply to post by honkusbobo
 


I do not see ANY comparison between the "Anti-Wrinkle Bra for Sleeping" or "talking toilet paper role" and a method for altering global climate invented by Hughes Aircraft scientists. Scientists which still are employed by the same company (bought by Raytheon) some nearly 20 years later.

Please dont derail me bro!


Excuse me, but I think his point was not to derail your thread but to cast doubt on whether the existence of a patent necessarily means that the idea is being put into practice. It has direct relevance for your thread because you suggest that the existence of the patents lends credence to your belief that chem trails are real, and now for the purpose of controlling climate.

With that said, if you are interesting on more information that could sway your opinion on whether global climate change is really happening you may want to check out this link:

www.cbsnews.com...


In my opinion, there is climate change happening at an alarming rate. Whether it is caused by humans or not is not nearly as important as whether humans can do something to slow down the change. Climate change disrupts ecosystems and could have an effect on food production, that's where it can become a problem.

-rrr



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 12:26 PM
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Theyre chemtrailing here in So Cal as I type this.



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by A Fortiori
 

The point is that persistent contrails form as a result of atmospheric conditions.


No, that is not the point. The point of the OP was to discuss research and patents that were submitted, whether they came to fruition or not.

Contrails are left by jet aircraft, mostly commercial jetliners. Bringing contrails into a discussion about the possibility of research being conducted in support of a confidential program or even the facilitation of a confidential program is obscuring the OP's submission with the mundane.

I'm sure that the average high school student understands that jet aircraft produce contrails and that those contrails are subject to a lengthy dissipation depending upon atmospheric conditions.


They have been observed for a very long time.


Anyone may look up into the sky and see them. Your point?


Other than a lack of understanding about the science behind their formation there is no reason to believe that the persistent contrails we see today are any different than the persistent contrails which were seen in WWII and earlier.


Again, why are you referring to persistent contrails? I believe I am missing the point.
Was the OP not talking about patents, research, and potential programs to reduce the effects of global warming or am I on the wrong thread?

Can we not discuss the OP? I found that to be interesting. Now, if you would like to discuss the science behind the patents or the programs referenced that would be on topic and helpful. Telling us all what we already know is a deflection of the originating supposition.

Of course, contrails linger. Unless someone refutes that this is possible, and I doubt that we will find someone who will, I don't see a reason to continue on that vein when the OP is about patents.

Now, can we move on and talk about the rather intriguing patents brought forward?


I rarely see contrails, persistent or otherwise. Does that mean I just happen to live in a location that is blessed with being ignored by this massive "spraying" effort, or could it be because I live in the tropics where the conditions rarely are favorable for contrail formation.


Well, logically would not the hypothetical "chemtrail" act in a similar manner to the "contrail"? By your observation I could therefore see why you do not see chemtrails and therefore any skepticism regarding firsthand observation of potential chemtrails would be lacking, would it not?


Yes, there is cloud seeding going on. Yes, there have occasionally been chemical releases outside of the atmosphere. No, these activities do not have anything to do with contrails or "chemtrails". [edit on 10/26/2009 by Phage]


Unless you have "Commander in Chief" or other such title behind your name I hardly think, no offense, that you would know that definitively. It really wouldn't be in the best interest of classified research to announce their activities to the world and therefore lose the edge on other research organizations. When I worked for the government sometimes we kept a program classified because of "the enemy" and sometimes we kept it classified because our agency funded it and we didn't want others to benefit from our funding.

I mean, let us all be honest. Even if we were in the know about the existence of so-called chemtrails we certainly couldn't share it, and if we were even more honest we would have to downplay it lest it appear we were violating terms of a nondisclosure.

Now, let's not be rude to each other and further derail the topic at hand. Let's return to the original post's content and get into the science of the patent. That sounds yummy!

[edit on 26-10-2009 by A Fortiori]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 01:06 PM
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The patents exist. The will to experiment exists. The desire to keep the public in the dark exists. The disinformation campaign exists. The people seeing abnormal phenomena in the skies on a regular basis exist. The only problem is that the skies don't lie.

Anyone who tries to tell you that patents are there just in case we need them is not thinking clearly. Patents are made and granted because there is a niche for them or one being created for them.

Ever since the Native Americans were ousted from their birthright, the powers that be in this country have done EVERYTHING conceivable to maintain that dominance over every living creature on this continent. With such facts as a basis for conjecture, nothing these monsters can dream up is out of the realm of possibility.

So there are some folks on here who would like to insult and degrade others who do not believe in their so called expertise. Ignore them. Let them insult and rave on. Lets just keep this discussion on track for once. The Patent is important information and new data for me.



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by AllSeeingI
 





A bit about the Inventors: David B. Chang of Tustin and I-Fu Shih of Los Alamitos
“David B. Chang of Tustin and I-Fu Shih of Los Alamitos, who both work for Hughes Aircraft Co. in Manhattan Beach, received a patent last month for a controversial method to seed a portion of the atmosphere with certain types of dust particles. These particles would screen out radiation from the sun while allowing heat from the earth's surface to pass through.
"We think it could conteract completely the amount of heating that would be caused by the greenhouse effect," said Chang, who is director of technology for the training and support systems group of Hughes Aircraft, a subsidiary of General Motors-Hughes Electronics Corp.”

I did a little digging and found that Chang and Shih are were still working for Raytheon (the company who bought Hughes Aircraft) as of at least 2005.
Raytheon Technology Today 2005 Issue #2


I really am interested in the possibilities that this method could afford us as I am not a global warming naysayer. My only concern is that to mimic a volcano, or other natural coolant we may do more harm than good.

Can you provide any additional information on this patent?



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 01:46 PM
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reply to post by Hazelnut
 



The patents exist.


So what? Really, if you stop to think about it....the MILITARY doesn't need a "patent", does it???

What is a "patent" for? To Make Money on your invention. That's it. To be able to claim sole ownership of an idea and invention, to preclude others from profiting off of YOUR idea. Period.



The will to experiment exists.


Pure speculation. "Will" exists in everything - such a blanket statement as that isn't logical "proof" of anything!



The desire to keep the public in the dark exists.


Now, again...paranoia extraordinaire!



The disinformation campaign exists.


What "disinformation campaign"???? My gosh! It's all over the 'Net! Actually, there is you 'disinfo' campaign...sites like 'carnicorn', et al.



The phenomena in the skies on a regular basis exist. The only problem is that the skies don't lie.


Oh, geeze...why cannot anyone see how illogical this is???


Here: Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to 'spray' terrible chemicals in the skies above the population of the planet, but do it covertly!! For gosh sakes, DON'T LET THEM SEE YOU do it!!!

Oooops...so, the things that are supposed to be covert are plain to see???

ermmmmm.....sound like contrails, to me.


On another tack, maybe someone will get it....

Anyone can look up the history of major volcanic eruptions in modern times, and the post-eruption studies of thier effects on the atmosphere.

Has the world come to an end?

Has there been a major de-population event on a gloabal scale?

Did all of the sulphur, and other nasty stuff (alleged to be "sprayed' in the so-called "chemtrails" today) cause any permanent physical harm to people on the planet?

Because, IF anyone can say "yes" to any of those, then something is terribly wrong with their perception of reality.

NOW....if anyone wishes to claim that HUMANS can possibly compete with a large volcanic outburst, in terms of mass and quantity of material, then by all means, PLEASE show us!!!






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