Royal Navy surrendering one of its aircraft carriers!, page 3

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reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 05:18 AM by neformore

Originally posted by jensy
Not to mention only single engined on a carrier is never a good idea.

Umm...Jensy....

The Harrier only has a single engine.

Rolls Royce Pegasus

You might wanna rethink your position there

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 06:40 PM by ArMaP

Originally posted by djusdjus
Good for the gov of the UK.
One more country that keeps it's military industrial complex in check.

Rule the waves? Please. lol

People forget that before "Britannia ruled the waves" it was Spain and Portugal that ruled, those things do not last forever, so it's better to move before being forced by outside actions.

reply posted on 31-10-2009 @ 01:25 PM by orangetom1999

reply to post by xmotex

From page 1 of this thread

Maybe we could sell you guys across the pond a Nimitz or two at a really good price? I'm pretty confident they'd be in good hands then at least.

We could give the Brits a Nimitz class carrier and they could not afford to maintain it much less train enough people for it. They cannot afford to keep Trident Submarines running...they most certainly cannot afford a Nimitz Class Carrier. The only way they can afford such a carrier is if they are subsidized by us as to the costs.

Keep an eye on the Astute submarine program for cost cutting next.

Watch carefully as to what is happening to the British Carriers. This too is what is going to happen to the next class of carriers...the Ford class ..here stateside as our own government chooses to deliberately ruin our economy and dollar value...just as the Brit government has done to the Pound.
We are slated to follow the British pattern of government excesses by putting as many people on the public dole as possible. Especially immigrants/new voters. Our military and defense will follow suit and be stuck out in the far world ill equipped and ill lead. It is already happening now.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 31-10-2009 by orangetom1999]

reply posted on 31-10-2009 @ 10:17 PM by jensy

reply to post by neformore

Er, very good point neformore.

May have posted that after a long pub session. But I stand by my dislike of the JSF, it is not worth the money we will have to pay for it. It should be the preserve of nations either with greater threats in smaller numbers such as Taiwan, Israel and Japan; or else the worlds only superpower.

The RN is when it comes down to it the UK's first strike force. It allows power projection and force deployment anywhere on the planet.

Jensy

reply posted on 1-11-2009 @ 03:00 AM by Ulala

Well, work continues apace on our new carriers.

Rolls Royce have just delivered the first pair of Neptune retractable stabilising fins for HMS Queen Elizabeth to the BAe yard at Govan. It's an important moment because it's the first component of the power/propulsion systems to be delivered. Telindus are the beneficiaries of a new order from the Aircraft Carrier Alliance, they're going to be providing the computer servers, tv & radio equipment, a fully kitted out tv studio.

Following items are on order ... bought & paid for, presumably explaining why the government can't back out now ... 80,000 tons of steel, wholeship pumps, uptake & downtakes, modular cabins and wetspaces, furniture, gallery equipment, vertical landing aids, gas turbines, shaftline & props, mechanised weapons handling systems, high voltage electricity networks, aircraft lifts, doors & hatches.

I think if the JSF is coming in over budget that we should seriously consider the Rafale M as an off the shelf alternative.

Sad truth is the UK can afford Nimitz class ships, could probably afford two or three such carrier battlegroups if the political will was there. Sadly, as Orangetom says, the British government prefers to squander most of its income on social security benefits. The government has, this year, got something like £700 billion to spend ... how much is defence getting ? Less than £50 billion. It's tragic.

reply posted on 1-11-2009 @ 05:18 AM by Fang

reply to post by Ulala

The more I read about the Rafale, the more I think it is an over hyped and at best, mediocre, 'Jack of all Trades'.
I would have much preferred that these carriers had never been ordered. It is not just their cost and the consequences for the Defence budget. It is the way in which it will 'skew' the posture of the Navy. There will inevitably be a reduction in the surface fleet and subs as a result of the expenditure on the carriers. When at sea, a carrier will need at least 5 surface escorts, a Hunter Killer (or two) and a large number of auxiliaries in support. That doesn't leave much for showing The Flag, Force projection, or having the ability to quickly react to emergencies in the Carribean, Med,Indian Ocean or any where else. The Navy will become a one trick pony, configured for the needs of the carrier at sea.

As for the Defence Budget in general, with our current military commitments, and equipment wish list, it's doubtful whether a doubling of the current budget would be enough.

reply posted on 1-11-2009 @ 07:21 PM by orangetom1999

reply to post by Ulala

Ulala,

Stabilizing fins as is done on ocean liners?? I did not know this was a feature of these new carriers. Interesting ..thanks for that info.

Rolls Royce have just delivered the first pair of Neptune retractable stabilising fins for HMS Queen Elizabeth to the BAe yard at Govan.

Ocean liners have this stabilizing feature to keep the passengers from excessive sea sickness as well as keep the gambling tables somewhat stable. Sea Sick passengers do not book return passages or another cruise.

Nimitz class carriers do not have this feature.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 1-11-2009 by orangetom1999]

reply posted on 2-11-2009 @ 05:28 AM by Ulala

reply to post by orangetom1999

Yes, the very thing.

Sorry, I ought to have provided a link.

Rolls Royce - Neptune Stablising Fins

The Courier - Dalgety Bay Team Finishes Fins for Carrier

reply posted on 3-11-2009 @ 02:09 AM by orangetom1999

reply to post by Ulala

Hey Ulala,

Thanks for the links. Very interesting. I have worked on numerous ocean liners and hence my familiarity with this type of system.

I have also worked on Nimitz class carriers both in and out of dry docks and hence know that they do not have them.

Thanks again for the links....

Orangetom

reply posted on 3-11-2009 @ 02:27 AM by Silver Shadow

I did not know this was a feature of these new carriers. Interesting ..thanks for that info.

Not a bad idea though.

The helicopter guys hate landing on decks that are going up and down thirty or more feet and rolling fairly badly..

A really rough sea cannot be a whole lot of fun for the fixed wing guys trying to land either.

[edit on 3/11/2009 by Silver Shadow]

reply posted on 3-11-2009 @ 01:56 PM by Ulala

Just as an aside, the British Government this afternoon has provided bailout assistance to two "broken banks" ... to the tune of £39.2 billion ... which is pretty much near the entire annual defence budget. USD $60 billion ? Wonder how many Nimitz class ships we could've bought with that ....

reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 09:41 AM by orangetom1999

Originally posted by Ulala
Just as an aside, the British Government this afternoon has provided bailout assistance to two "broken banks" ... to the tune of £39.2 billion ... which is pretty much near the entire annual defence budget. USD $60 billion ? Wonder how many Nimitz class ships we could've bought with that ....

You folks in the UK cannot afford Nimitz class ships..not only to build them but to run them as well. It wont be long at the rate we are spending here in the states before we too cannot afford them.

Some people are saying that the new Brit class carriers will never leave the drydocks. I think it will be similar here with the Ford class carriers. I think also they will begin to cut the class down in number just as is being done in the UK. All of this while the government spends billions/trillions on social programs which are designed to get certain political parties re elected and in power.

We here are being turned into Englishmen...by our government or whoever is actually running our government as the operational templates/tempo seem to be the same. Thus indicating the same hand behind the scenes running things for a particular benifit or outcome/goal.

Thanks,
Orangetom

reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 09:54 AM by Fang

"We here are being turned into Englishmen... "

Congratulations! Celebrations must be in order.

See you in the Pub later on.

[edit on 4/11/09, by Fang]

[edit on 4/11/09, by Fang]

reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 01:15 PM by maintainright

yeah congrats

at this rate it wont be long before your upgraded again to scotsmen

reply posted on 6-11-2009 @ 08:15 PM by Zaphod58

According to what I read on another forum, the MOD said today that they are NOT scaling down the second carrier and both will have the JSF on deck.

reply posted on 12-11-2009 @ 03:53 PM by Retseh

Some of us had this figured out some time ago, see my first post on this page:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Anyone else want to argue about my knowledge of the incompetent and highly predictable British military procurement system?

reply posted on 12-11-2009 @ 04:02 PM by Ulala

reply to post by Retseh

Your prediction wasn't far out ... kudos

Word on the street is that the 2nd ship may well complete with its air wing intact, so I'm told by a friend who works at one of the yards. It all depends on funding granted by parliamentary announcement later in November. But the yards obviously need to know as soon as possible otherwise there'll be even further delays, cost overruns.

So. We'll see if you're up there with Nostradamus in a few weeks time

reply posted on 12-11-2009 @ 04:13 PM by Retseh

Originally posted by Ulala
So. We'll see if you're up there with Nostradamus in a few weeks time

That's fair

But I still won't believe it until I see it.

British military development projects are soooo predicatable.

The ONLY thing you can ever count on are those programs that have a collaborative element - Jaguar, Tornado, Eurofighter, and now the F-35.

The MoD would rather see front line troops armed with bows and arrows than pull out of their JSF commitments.

But anything that's truly British made will ALWAYS be made to suffer, just look at the weapons fit on the Type 45 "Destroyer".

reply posted on 14-11-2009 @ 11:19 AM by Tormentations

Even in happier economic times, the Carriers and aircraft would have driven a coach and horses through the Navy budget. One point that has to be borne in mind is that the Navy and RAF would have shared the costs of the JSF's (like the combined Harrier force) . Now it seems the whole cost will have to be met by the Navy.

Interesting...

reply posted on 19-11-2009 @ 11:21 AM by Ulala

It gets curiouser and curiouser.

Latest speculation is that the English Ministry of Defence is seeking a buyer for one of the two carriers ... and India is expressing interest.

One of Britain’s new £2bn aircraft carriers could be sold off under cost-cutting plans being considered by the Ministry of Defence. India has lodged a firm expression of interest, the Observer has learned. The sale of one of the two 65,000-tonne vessels would leave the Royal Navy with a single carrier and could force Britain to borrow from the French fleet, which itself has only one carrier and is reluctant to build more. Last summer the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, proposed to Gordon Brown that the two navies co-ordinate maintenance and refitting so that one was at sea at all times. According to senior defence sources, Whitehall officials are examining the feasibility of a sale as part of the strategic defence review that will start early next year and is expected to result in savage cuts. The carrier programme has already been delayed by two years to push back spending commitments, which itself will end up costing the taxpayer more in the long run. BAE Systems began work in July on HMS Queen Elizabeth, which is due to come into service in 2016. Preparatory work on the Prince of Wales, due for launch in 2018, has also started. The two carriers will replace the ageing Invincible class and are three times the size. There were fears that the government could scrap one altogether. But it is understood that the financial penalties would be prohibitive. About 10,000 jobs in Portsmouth, Barrow-in-Furness, Fife and Glasgow depend on the orders.

Indian Defence Research Wing

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