It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Question; Catholics vs. Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia and Obama's Admin?

page: 2
1
<< 1   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 07:55 PM
link   
reply to post by adama1
 


You wrote:

'That's the thing Eric anything that a Non Catholic types or reports against the Vatican is automatically called Anti-Catholic rhetoric.'

That is absolutely and completely not true. As it is a subject that I am interested in, I often post in threads about Catholicism. Why don't you take a look at any of my posts in the threads about (for example) the sex abuse scandals. Do you see me (or other Catholics) deriding the source or the other posters?

If something is anti-Catholic, I'm going to say so. But I don't make that claim spuriously and I don't use it as a knee-jerk defense substituting for apologetics. If you use sources from universities or studies by qualified academics I'm not going to say that they are anti-Catholic in the pejorative fashion. If you use Jack Chick or Alamo Ministries as a resource, I'm going to call a spade a spade.

Your claim is deceptive and I seriously hope that you were just mistaken and not trying to 'score points' with a falsehood.

Eric




posted on Oct, 29 2009 @ 10:10 PM
link   
Ok, so I've doing some reading to refresh my memory on a few things.

I would be happy to discuss the photos that you are referencing if you can give me the dates for them. The 'nazi salute' was in use starting in 1923, prior to most of the current significance that it has now and what the Nazi party came to represent.

You claim that there were Catholic clergy who were Nazis by day and Clergy at night. Please provide a link to a reputable source for that as it was my understanding (and I may have to refresh my memory on that as well) that you had to renounce your Catholicism to become a Nazi as they considered the Catholic Church as a foreign potentate.

You claim that Stepinac was a nazi killer. He was in actuality a Catholic Cardinal. I'm afraid that we will never know how culpable he was in the atrocities in Croatia. His trial was largely considered a farce by western powers and was held by the communist government when they filled the power vacuum after the war. Like many other new 'eastern block' countries, they were attempting to eradicate religion and remove religious leaders from places of authority.

On the other hand there is no disputing that there were atrocities committed in what was a country with a dense population of Catholics and it is certainly feasible that Stepinac could have done more to intervene. Sadly, I don't think that we will ever have a clear, cut and dry view of what happened.

Eric



posted on Oct, 31 2009 @ 10:56 AM
link   
reply to post by EricD
 


Here you go my friend in bed with the devil!! I could post if you want pictures showing this getting signed your church is a disgrace i have been following some of your posts and you are the first to defend the Vatican. My god come to your senses how would you wish to be an apologist for a Church that has committed unthinkable deeds against humanity?

You never posted about why they beatified FATHER STEPINAC the Nazi Roman Catholic mass murderer? Why would such a nice church would do this?

This is for everyone to see the Vatican enetering into agreement with their Nazi friends. Explain this Eric!

en.wikipedia.org...

Hear is the reason the Vatican sheltered some Jews so they could be converted news.scotsman.com...

You are talking about a Church that has killed Jews in the Spanish inquisitions and elsewhere and you want us to believe a word they say.

The Vatican took Italian Jewish children and converted them a swell.

This is a Church that has killed Protestants, Jews, Orthodox Christians invaded countries and became political powers using their secret societies to change constitutions to suit their own ends and you want us to believe them ERIC WAKE UP!

[edit on 31-10-2009 by adama1]

[edit on 31-10-2009 by adama1]



posted on Oct, 31 2009 @ 03:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by adama1
reply to post by EricD
 


Here you go my friend in bed with the devil!!


This is unacceptable. Please refrain from this type of behavior.



.... for a Church that has committed unthinkable deeds against humanity?



Are you contending that the entire body of the Catholic church knew of and or endorsed the behavior of those within the institution that abused their authority and trust and generally betrayed the Church herself and what she stands for? It is quite realistic to suppose that there must have been some crass abuses of trust by those who favored Nazi ideology... but "The Church" refers to a far larger group than those in the arena of diplomacy and intrigue.

"People" commit acts, not churches. If your logic held true, every person who claims any tie with any institution that has ever existed, or exists today, are guilty of any crime made by anyone with a similar claim.

It is the breadth of your derision that makes it wrong.

Make your case well, because what you have to say MUST be heard. Too frequently members of the church have avoided learning just how wrong some of their members have been, all in the name of refusing the principle that holds true universally - people are people - regardless of what they claim to believe, or are supposed to represent.

But you must know that saying the Catholic church supported the Nazis is as realistic as saying Americans supported the invasion of Iraq. That's a little too neat and easy if you ask me. It's the logic of division.

Sorry for interrupting your discourse...

[edit on 31-10-2009 by Maxmars]



posted on Oct, 31 2009 @ 06:04 PM
link   
reply to post by adama1
 


I'm going to ask you politely to raise the level of your discourse. I have not insulted you, nor have I been disrespectful. Your opening sentence was despicable.

You have three main points in your reply:

1) You discuss Stepinac. I have already stated that I don't think either one of us will ever know the truth of what happened in Croatia during and immediately after WWII. What we do know is that he was tried by Tito following WWII for complicity in atrocities during the war. This trial was considered a farce by most western powers and was seen as an attempt to separate the people from their religion by destroying their religious leader as they moved into a new era of communism, the trial was repudiated by people such as Louis Brier, head of the American Association of Jews at the time and his prosecutor, Jokov Blazokiv, admitted in 1985 that Stepinac was set up and was framed due to his refusal to break from the Church.

So, I'm using non-Catholic sources to say that neither of us knows the truth here. You are using anti-Catholic sources to speak with certainty. Is that at all troubling to you?

2) You mention the Concordat without saying what you believe is objectionable. I don't see you exhibiting similar outrage for other supranational entities having treaties and agreements with Germany during the same time period, such as Poland, Russia, France and Britain. You also don't seem to mind that fact that Hitler FOUNDED the German Protestant Church.

And again, I implore you to use sources that have at least a modicum of neutrality and academic esteem. As laughable as it is, I do appreciate your link to wikipedia.

3) You imply (and almost outright state) that the only reason that Catholics aided Jews in WWII was to convert them. This flies in the face of the fact that in almost every case of a country being held by the Nazis, those that were predominantly Catholic had a smaller percentage of Jews killed than those that were predominantly Protestant. In addition, the country that had the LEAST amount of Jews killed (by population percentage) was Italy.

You seem to take your responsibility in spreading calumny against people who risked their own lives to save others very lightly. You might want to tread with care. Bearing false witness is serious and the context makes it more so.

In summation, I'm certainly willing to accept a nuanced argument and entertain the possibility that more could have been done or done better by Catholics in general and the Catholic hierarchy itself. I have offered you quotes from non-Catholic sources and asked you to similarly refrain from not using sources who 'have a dog in the fight'.

That you seem to see things in black and white and utilize resources that are clearly biased is telling. The fact that you use personal invective and try to assail the poster and not the post is more so.


Eric




top topics
 
1
<< 1   >>

log in

join