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Question; Catholics vs. Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia and Obama's Admin?

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posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 09:26 AM
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I heard recently that the Catholic Church fought against Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia. Does anyone have any idea, or links on how or if the Church did this?

I have also heard the Catholic Church has issues with the Obama Admin. Does anything have any info on this?

I tried doing a small amount of research and haven’t really came up with anything, though I may just be using incorrect searches.....

The whole point of this post is, IF the above has any validity to it and there is/was a secret, or non secret battle between the church and the regimes mentioned, I thought to my self "why would this be taking place, and what could an administration to do fight against the church?" My mind keeps landing with ET Disclosure.

Maybe this whole post is silly, but I figured the brains of ATS could contribute.

Anyone?




posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 09:47 AM
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reply to post by Thumb
 

From what i am lead to believe the Vatican was hand in hand with the German high command, source "the rat run for more info" The catholic church sponsored top Nazis with fake passports and money to get them to southern America colonies,
My theory is this that the high command of Germany basically threatened to blow up the vatican if they did not hop into bed with the Nazis. IMO



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 10:24 AM
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Taken from forums the axies ww2

but on that thing they dont talk about it as they should. I want to know true facts not talk about some game. So heres what i know, Hitler(Along with many other high rankig officers) was involed in many occults at the time but the one he most favoried would be the "Thule Socity". And that he was also a "Knight of Malta" which was closly tied to the catholic church and they took part in the "Rat Run". They also had the church smuggle the Nazi gold through there bank (Vatican ??) for safe keeping.
So the theory goes..

[edit on 24-10-2009 by foxhoundone]



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 10:27 AM
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Your kidding right? Well look the Vatican also sponsored the nazi's durind world war 2 secretly



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 10:45 AM
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From what i know, Soviet Union fought with any religion ,including Catholicism. So it is logical that Catholicism fought back. But as far as Nazi thing goes - not that sure. I mean - Hitler was not big fun of Catholic church and tried to cut its influence, but i think that church officials tolerated Nazism and rarely openly criticized it because alternative was Communists.



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 11:43 AM
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Is not so simple but a lot of the prisets and nuns was murdered by the Germans for helping the partisants hiding the jews etc.Google for M.Kolbe name or even the "Holocaust victims" in wikipedia for start. As for the alleged Vatican help it may be just another conspiracy theory...

Catholic fight against the Communists is well known...of course peacefull fight but anyway in the thirties to become communist it was equal with exclusion from the Church. They killed a lot of Catholics, in Spanish civil war already, read some Orwell about that period- I dont remember details but from what he write killing of the priests anddesacrating churches was kind of normal for the "good" communists fighting against Franco. The Catholics were killed in WWII in places like Katyn, Smolensk, Miednoye etc- priests along with the Polish Army officers and the representants of the polish inteligentsia.
During the war and after there was numerous prosecutions. The catholics were sent to Siberia. Even at the end of the regime in Poland some "unknown perpetrators" asasinated many of the priests known for their anty communism. Google J. Popieluszko...The Hero an in this exceptional case we know who done it.
Of course in the most cases the fight was peacefull. Priests keep the society well informed and reminded them about some moral values- it seems it was dangerous enough for the both regimes.

Actually the Church are all the Catholic people so there was sometime the phisical fighting as well...But the strongest blow for the communists was Election of the Polish Pope John Paul II and as if his very presence was not enough during his numerous visits he make the polish society concious how numerous they are and how unified against the regime, even after the decades of Church suppresing and atheist propaganda.
The resulting Solidarność movement was in the begining of the eighties, till nowit seems the most massive peacefull anticommunist movement of the world- about 10 milions of the members!
The Pieriestroyka, the Berlins wall and the rest was only another pieces of domino falling after...



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 11:59 AM
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go to vids.myspace.com

search for "illuminati exposed" its 34 min long.



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 07:07 AM
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The American government drew up plans to invade the Republic of Ireland as it was suspected that Ireland was suing for peace with Nazi Germany, thus letting them station their military forces in the republic,
At that time the Roman catholic church had a big say in what went down,
Please correct if iam wrong..



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 08:13 AM
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I just googled this, this is a very interesting thread, hand in hand i would say going by the Pictures of the clergy doing those Nazi or they might say Roman Salutes.

alamoministries.com...

www.liberalslikechrist.org...

www.emperors-clothes.com...



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 11:52 AM
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Let's take a look at contemporaneous views of the Vatican's actions during WWII.

(Quoted from Rabbi David Gellin)

As early as December 1940, in an article in Time magazine, Albert Einstein paid tribute to Pius: “Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly.”

In 1943, Chaim Weizmann, who would become Israel’s first president, wrote that “the Holy See is lending its powerful help wherever it can, to mitigate the fate of my persecuted co-religionists.”

Moshe Sharett, Israel’s second prime minister, met with Pius in the closing days of the war and “told him that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews.”

Rabbi Isaac Herzog, Chief Rabbi of Israel, sent a message in February 1944 declaring, “The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world.”

In September 1945, Leon Kubowitzky, Secretary General of the World Jewish Congress, personally thanked the Pope for his interventions, and the World Jewish Congress donated $20,000 to Vatican charities “in recognition of the work of the Holy See in rescuing Jews from Fascist and Nazi persecutions.”

Goodness and magnanimity
In 1955, when Italy celebrated the tenth anniversary of its liberation, the Union of Italian Jewish Communities proclaimed April 17 a “Day of Gratitude” for the Pope’s wartime assistance. ...

To deny the legitimacy of their gratitude to Pius XII is tantamount to denying the credibility of their personal testimony and judgment about the Holocaust itself. “More than all others,” recalled Elio Toaff, an Italian Jew who lived through the Holocaust and later became Chief Rabbi of Rome, “we had the opportunity of experiencing the great compassionate goodness and magnanimity of the Pope during the unhappy years of the persecution and terror, when it seemed that for us there was no longer an escape.”...

The Talmud teaches that “whosoever preserves one life, it is accounted to him by Scripture as if he had preserved a whole world.” More than any other twentieth-century leader, Pius fulfilled this Talmudic dictum, when the fate of European Jewry was at stake. No other pope had been so widely praised by Jews–and they were not mistaken. Their gratitude, as well as that of the entire generation of Holocaust survivors, testifies that Pius XII was, genuinely and profoundly, a righteous gentile.



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by Thumb
 


I learned the Catholics helped some GERMANS EXCAPE, SO?

A Catholic seminary in Rome has opened its wartime archives to shed light on a notorious Austrian bishop who supported the Nazis.

Nazi-hunter Wiesenthal dies Bishop Alois Hudal, who died in 1963, was the director of the Pan-Germanic College of Santa Maria dell' Anima in Rome between 1923 and 1952. The college is the main training centre in Rome for German priests.

The priest openly declared his pro-Nazi views and has been labelled the "Black Bishop" by Simon Wiesenthal, the Nazi hunter whose foundation gathered evidence against him.

Inside the vault, historians from the Institute for Austrian History in Rome found a copy of a telegram sent to Adolf Hitler by Hudal supporting the annexation of Austria.

The archive also confirms that Hudal helped many German soldiers escape to South America. Among those he is suspected of helping is Franz Stangl, commander of the Treblinka death camp.


[edit on 10/26/09 by Ophiuchus 13]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 11:56 AM
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What did Pius XII and the Vatican do during the time of WWII?

(again, quoted from Dallin)

• Of the forty-four speeches Pacelli gave in Germany as papal nuncio between 1917 and 1929, forty denounced some aspect of the emerging Nazi ideology.

• In March 1935, he wrote an open letter to the bishop of Cologne calling the Nazis "false prophets with the pride of Lucifer."
• That same year, he assailed ideologies "possessed by the superstition of race and blood" to an enormous crowd of pilgrims at Lourdes. At Notre Dame in Paris two years later, he named Germany "that noble and powerful nation whom bad shepherds would lead astray into an ideology of race."

• The Nazis were "diabolical," he told friends privately. Hitler "is completely obsessed," he said to his long-time secretary, Sister Pascalina. "All that is not of use to him, he destroys; . . . this man is capable of trampling on corpses." Meeting in 1935 with the heroic anti-Nazi Dietrich von Hildebrand, he declared, "There can be no possible reconciliation" between Christianity and Nazi racism; they were like "fire and water."


• The year after Pacelli became secretary of state in 1930, Vatican Radio was established, essentially under his control. The Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano had an uneven record, though it would improve as Pacelli gradually took charge (extensively reporting Kristallnacht in 1938, for example). But the radio station was always good—making such controversial broadcasts as the request that listeners pray for the persecuted Jews in Germany after the 1935 Nuremberg Legislation.

• It was while Pacelli was his predecessor's chief adviser that Pius XI made the famous statement to a group of Belgian pilgrims in 1938 that "anti-Semitism is inadmissible; spiritually we are all Semites." And it was Pacelli who drafted Pius XI's encyclical Mit brennender Sorge, "With Burning Concern," a condemnation of Germany among the harshest ever issued by the Holy See. Indeed, throughout the 1930s, Pacelli was widely lampooned in the Nazi press as Pius XI's "Jew-loving" cardinal, because of the more than fifty-five protests he sent the Germans as the Vatican secretary of state.

To these must be added highlights of Pius XII's actions during the war:

• His first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus, rushed out in 1939 to beg for peace, was in part a declaration that the proper role of the papacy was to plead to both warring sides rather than to blame one. But it very pointedly quoted St. Paul—“there is neither Gentile nor Jew”—using the word "Jew" specifically in the context of rejecting racial ideology. The New York Times greeted the encyclical with a front-page headline on October 28, 1939: "Pope Condemns Dictators, Treaty Violators, Racism." Allied airplanes dropped thousands of copies on Germany in an effort to raise anti-Nazi sentiment.

• In 1939 and 1940, Pius acted as a secret intermediary between the German plotters against Hitler and the British. He would similarly risk warning the Allies about the impending German invasions of Holland, Belgium, and France.

• In March 1940, Pius granted an audience to Joachim von Ribbentrop, the German foreign minister and the only high-ranking Nazi to bother visiting the Vatican. The Germans' understanding of Pius's position, at least, was clear: Ribbentrop chastised the pope for siding with the Allies. Whereupon Pius began reading from a long list of German atrocities. "In the burning words he spoke to Herr Ribbentrop," the New York Times reported on March 14, Pius "came to the defense of Jews in Germany and Poland."

• When French bishops issued pastoral letters in 1942 attacking deportations, Pius sent his nuncio to protest to the Vichy government against "the inhuman arrests and deportations of Jews from the French-occupied zone to Silesia and parts of Russia." Vatican Radio commented on the bishops' letters six days in a row—at a time when listening to Vatican Radio was a crime in Germany and Poland for which some were put to death. ("Pope Is Said to Plead for Jews Listed for Removal from France," the New York Times headline read on August 6, 1942. "Vichy Seizes Jews; Pope Pius Ignored," the Times reported three weeks later.) In retaliation, in the fall of 1942, Goebbels's office distributed ten million copies of a pamphlet naming Pius XII as the "pro-Jewish pope" and explicitly citing his interventions in France.

• In the summer of 1944, after the liberation of Rome but before the war's end, Pius told a group of Roman Jews who had come to thank him for his protection: "For centuries, Jews have been unjustly treated and despised. It is time they were treated with justice and humanity, God wills it and the Church wills it. St. Paul tells us that the Jews are our brothers. They should also be welcomed as friends."



posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by EricD
 


Ok that is another side of the coin. Can you explain those picture i googled and posted because i think they are genuine and tell me if all the information on these sites are fabricated. When i googled it hundreds of links showing the Catholic Church in cahoots appeared. Their was even Catholic Priests that were Clergy by day and Nazi soldiers by night killing Non Catholics ie Orthodox Christians. Their was a Nazi Catholic Killer by the name of Stepinac that the vatican wanted to beatify why would the vatican reward a killer in such a way?

Thanks in advance.



posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 05:38 PM
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reply to post by adama1
 


I will check two of the three out and try to get back to you by tomorrow or Thursday.

I'm not going to bother with Alamo. He and his 'ministry' are jokes. Do some research on him and you'll be shocked.

It would help if you were able to provide photos you would like explanations for from unbiased sites, such as those of universities or historians.

Before I dive into this, please be aware that like the human race in general, there are and were bad Catholics and bad priests.

Eric



posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by adama1
reply to post by EricD
 


Ok that is another side of the coin. Can you explain those picture i googled and posted because i think they are genuine and tell me if all the information on these sites are fabricated. When i googled it hundreds of links showing the Catholic Church in cahoots appeared. Their was even Catholic Priests that were Clergy by day and Nazi soldiers by night killing Non Catholics ie Orthodox Christians. Their was a Nazi Catholic Killer by the name of Stepinac that the vatican wanted to beatify why would the vatican reward a killer in such a way?

Thanks in advance.

There is even very famous movie where they show the Real Catholic Ninja Assassin... The da Vinci Code...
With so many views it cant be false...



posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 04:45 PM
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reply to post by EricD
 



This will dispell your propoganda You never acknowledged those photographs of the Catholic Clergy with the Nazis doing the salute. Also while investigating this their evidence to suggest that the Catholic Church had a hand in war crimes in the former Yugoslavia against Orthodox Christians. I will post links to this once you post your reply.

in his book, "The Myth of Hitler's Pope"
One of the main thrusts of Ultra-Conservative Rabbi David Dalin is an attempt to shift blame for the Nazi Holocaust from the Catholic Pope in Rome to the Muslim Mufti in Palestine. Alhough the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini, may well have been a more willing collaborator of Hitler's than was the Pius XII - and therefore more culpable morally -, how many Muslim followers was the Mufti able to persuade to do Hitler's bidding? How many Jews were ratted out by Muslim neighbors, gathered up by Muslim police, guarded, beaten, killed and incinerated by Muslim, as opposed to Catholics or Lutherans who were recruited to fulfill all of those roles? The answer, of course, is only a tiny fraction of the number of Catholics who did the bidding of their Nazi Catholic and Protestant leaders. I don't know how many Muslims there were in Germany to be moved by the Mufti to embrace the Nazi agenda, but my reading tells me that some 98% of Germans were either Catholics or Protestants. Allowing for the Jews, the Jehovah Witnesses, the atheists and agnostics, the "Bolsheviks" that Hitler claimed were under every bed, how many of the balance were Muslims?
See our extensive refutation of Rabbi Dalin's book at CatholicArrogance.Org/Catholic/Hitlerspope.html



posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by adama1
 


Ok, here's the thing; I could offer you Catholic refutations all day long. I purposefully used a non-Catholic Jewish resource. Your sources are clearly anti-Catholic.

He has a PhD from Brandeis, is a conservative Rabbi and was an associate professor at Harvard.

Although it's certainly no game, we are clearly playing on an unlevel playing field.

As promised, I will have a reply for you tonight or tomorrow. I don't want to offer a flippant or inaccurate response.

Eric



posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by adama1
 


BTW, I'm not sure what 'propaganda' of mine that you think you are thwarting and your refutation of the Rabbi's work comes from a site called Catholic Arrogance.

A more neutral resource would seem to be in order.

Eric



posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 06:40 PM
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reply to post by EricD
 


That's the thing Eric anything that a Non Catholic types or reports against the Vatican is automatically called Anti-Catholic rhetoric. The Catholic church is full of propoganda recently instead of admitting they were the biggest abusers of children on the planet they made a statement saying this goes on in all churches to take the bad look of themselves. But back to the point i suppose these Serbs and Jews in this column are just Anit-Catholics?


Nazi-Era Victims Want UN to Investigate Vatican
By Patrick Goodenough
CNS London Bureau Chief
29 June, 2000

(CNSNews.com) - The Vatican, with its permanent observer status at the
United Nations under fire, may now face a challenge from survivors of
Nazi-era war crimes in the Balkans.

Serb and Jewish survivors of atrocities committed by the Nazi-installed
puppet regime in wartime Croatia have asked U.N. secretary-general Kofi
Annan to investigate their claims that the Vatican and a Roman Catholic
monastic order collaborated with the perpetrators.

In an open letter issued through their lawyers, the victims - who are
bringing a class action lawsuit against the Vatican Bank and the
Franciscan order - urged Annan to persuade the Vatican to open its
wartime archives, or face "appropriate action" to encourage them to do so.

The Vatican enjoys permanent observer status at the U.N., while
Franciscans International is a recognized non-governmental organization
at the U.N.

The Vatican's status is currently under fire from a coalition of
pro-abortion, feminist and other organizations, spearheaded by a
Catholic "pro-choice" group, campaigning to have it revoked, charging
that the Holy See's statehood is legally questionable.

The groups are incensed at the Vatican's consistent opposition in U.N.
forums to measures that would liberalize abortion and contraception,
particularly in developing countries.

The group of victims and relatives of victims who are bringing the
lawsuit in a San Francisco district court currently number 25. They come
from the United States, Yugoslavia and the Ukraine, said their attorney,
Jonathan Levy.

Papers have been served on the Vatican Bank, the Franciscans, and were
soon to be served on the Croatian Liberation Movement, which Levy said
was understood to be the "direct successors to the Ustashe" - the
wartime fascist organization which ruled Croatia.

The suit alleges that gold and other assets worth about $170 million
today, not including interest, were looted by the Ustashe and
safeguarded by the Vatican after World War II.

In their letter to Annan, the victims charge that some members of the
Franciscan order collaborated with the Ustashe, were actively involved
in atrocities, and knowingly helped wanted Ustashe war criminals,
including its notorious leader Ante Pavelic, to escape justice after the
war.

They say the Vatican organized and financed the "rat line" which enabled
leading Nazis and Ustashe members to escape to Latin America. The escape
route was allegedly partly funded by assets stolen from concentration
camp and other victims, looted by the Ustashe, and removed to the Vatican.

The Vatican and Franciscans have consistently denied involvement in
these activities.

Pope Pius XII's alleged silence in the face of Nazi genocide has long
sparked controversy. His defenders say he spoke out in Christmas Eve
homilies during 1941 and 1942 against the extermination of Jews.

Many European Christians, Catholics and Protestant, took a stance
against the Nazis during the war. Thousands of Catholics, including
clergymen, were murdered by the Nazis because of their opposition to Hitler.

The Nazis installed the Ustashe in power in Croatia after Yugoslavia
fell to the Nazis in April 1941. More than 600,000 people - Serbs, Jews
and Roma (gypsies) - were killed in the Balkans by the fascist regime.

Those bringing the lawsuit say family and community members were subject
to "mass rape, beheadings, torture, mutilations, burnings, establishment
of concentration and forced labor camps, destruction of Orthodox
Churches and Jewish Synagogues, and looting of assets valued in the
hundreds of millions by the Ustashe and Franciscans."

They wrote to Annan: "Unlike every other civilized nation the Vatican
has refused to acknowledge its complicity in genocide and has refused
repeated requests by the United States government, Jewish and Roma
organizations to open its World War II archives to public scrutiny."

Levy said the plaintiffs were seeking access to more than 250 U.S. Army
Intelligence documents on one Krunoslav Draganavich, believed to have
been the head of the Vatican operation which laundered Ustashe funds and
smuggled Nazis out of Europe.

Some "heavily sanitized" documents had been released to the attorneys,
he said, but Army Intelligence withheld over 250 documents on grounds of
"national security."

"We are appealing this decision through an administrative process and if
unsuccessful will go to Federal Court."

A 1998 State Department report entitled "The Fate of the Wartime Ustasha
Treasury" implicated the Vatican and Franciscans is a number of postwar
crimes now being cited by the lawsuit plaintiffs.

Wartime documents raise questions

Recently a London newspaper published previously undiscovered documents
which showed that Britain's wartime leader, Winston Churchill asked a
prominent British Catholic family in 1940 to lobby the Vatican at the
time to denounce the Nazis and support the Allied cause.

The Sunday Telegraph said the discovery of the 1940 papers "undermine
the arguments of papal apologists who claim that the Allies understood
the reasons for the Pope's silence because they appreciated he was in an
impossible position."

One letter, from former Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax, warned that Pope
Pius XII's stance left Catholics with the impression that a Europe
dominated by Hitler was the Pope's preferred outcome to the war.

"If the Catholics of, say, Belgium, Holland and France could be
persuaded that somehow Nazism was reconcilable with their religious
faith and moral outlook, then a potentially powerful center of
resistance to Nazi plans of domination would be removed," Halifax wrote
to Lord Fitzalan, a leading Catholic and former Conservative lawmaker.

One Foreign Office telegram questioned the wisdom of the Vatican's stance.

"What in the day of triumph for justice and fair-dealing will be the
feeling of Catholics the world over towards the church if it can be said
of it that after at first standing against Nazi paganism it eventually
agreed by its silence to assist in discrediting the principles upon
which it is founded?"

The London Times last month cited newly-found documents showing that
Britain's Minister to the Holy See, Francis D'Arcy Godolphin Osborne,
had given the Vatican a daily report of Nazi atrocities, starting in 1940.

Last April, Stuart Eizenstat, U.S. special representative and secretary
of state for Holocaust issues, told the Senate foreign relations
committee that the Vatican had "authorized a group of Jewish and
Catholic scholars to thoroughly review its collection of published
documents from the Nazi era."

He welcomed the step and expressed the hope that it would "lead to
additional measures for archival openness."

But it is unpublished records that Jewish scholars would like to see,
rather than an 11-volume work commissioned by the Vatican and published
by four Jesuit priests in the 1980s.

Israeli government minister Natan Sharansky urged Pope John Paul II
earlier this year to open the wartime records.

"As long as the Vatican archives are off-limits to historians and
survivors, the full truth will remain elusive, thereby casting a shadow
over efforts toward Jewish-Catholic rapprochement," he wrote.


 

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[edit on 29/10/2009 by ArMaP]



posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 07:26 PM
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Good thread.

Your work thus far collectively speaking merits review but a warning:

You will not attack each other nor address anything other than the topic. If you believe this is as important as you appear to believe; then it shouldn't be hard to simply speak your mind without calling each other out.

I hope you don't mind the bluntness; but I like this OP and want to see it explored.

In the way of an apology for barging in, I offer a meager contribution of my own.

Important aspects of this discussion have been presented but not fully explored.

Why, I wonder would anyone fail to recognize that the Catholic Church is nothing more than an institution. It is not a nation, it is not a club; it is a collection of people who, in an ideal world, believe in the same ideological principles regarding metaphysics.

There were Catholics who actually were members of the NAZI movement. There still are. There were Americans, British, French, who were NAZI supporters too. Some of them were Catholic. Some weren't.

The institution itself operates at a diplomatic level because of the sheer numbers of churches it operates globally. That is why those in positions of authority and influence seek and benefit from political relevance.

Some of those people had authority to be of assistance to the movement. Others could profit from it. Both types of people existed, as such always do. These people could not muster the humanity to resist the temptation.

Some are still prominent in the world. But that time has passed for the Church. and I suspect that any attempt for the church to become of predominant political relevance now, as in these times, would be very alarming and poorly received.

Of course, that doesn't mean that they won't still behave as if they matter very much indeed.

People did some really heroic things back when, before TV raised the children. They also did some really sick stuff too. Oddly, all we hear about today is the sick stuff nowadays.... it seems to sell better ....that should tell you something about who you're listening too.

They just want us to be obedient consumers.... and they will sell you the tragic examples of the past. They won't care what you think about it, just that you associate the evil then with the world today. They keep the hate alive that way.

I think until we stop grouping people like ice cream flavors, we'll end up like little puppets. Obedient consumers.

If you want to catalog all those who helped the Nazi's that's one thing. You'll find there's plenty of guilt to go around.

If you want to specifically categorize those which can be directly attributed to Catholic officials, you will find those who believed in the NAZI message, which has absolutely nothing to with most of today's Catholics.

If you want to somehow question any of the Catholic institution's alleged criticisms of the Obama administration, you need to be more direct. Because I think there are too many individuals within the church to be able to say it feels any particular way as a whole (except, of course, on matters of dogma.)



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