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The U.F.O. Party Gatecrashers

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posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by Nichiren

Sorry, but you are intellectually dishonest.


Really, how? You didn't say. You get "Intellectual dishonesty" simply from me pointing out that you are off topic? Wow.


You clearly asked "any thoughts" and I gave you my thoughts.


No, my request for "Any thoughts?" was in the OP and the context was about how to solve the problem of continual conflict and derailed threads at least in part due to posters who are not here to discuss the investigation of the ETH - which is the purpose of this forum - but to sarcastically deny outright that the ETH is even possible by insisting that ET's do not exist. On that topic, I asked for "Any thoughts". I wasn't asking for random unrelated thoughts. Your response to this OP was:


Don't you think CNN would give anybody a million dollars if he/she had indisputable physical proof that ET existed. It would be the story of this young century.

Funny, it hasn't happened.


...which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject we are discussing. Its completely off topic. So, I said that "I'm not sure how your post is relevant to what we are discussing here?"

Your response - which as a another poster noted was: "off-topic, needlessly antagonistic and contrary to the forum's purpose" - was to say:


Let me type it slowly for ya: there is no indisputable proof that ET is real. You are assuming things. Otherwise you should post it here and silence the skeptics for all eternity.


....which - again - has absolutely nothing to do with the OP and is completely off topic. I asked you to reread the OP and pointed out your comment was not relevant. You haven't been saying anything on topic so far! Which brings us to this point and your latest post:


Your initial statement says that anybody who claims that ET don't exist should be banned. You simply reverse the attitude of the worst "debunkers" and make it a belief-system that everybody should subscribe to. Are you kidding me? Don't you see the hypocrisy in your statement.


Now you're finally on topic. No, I said that those who are here merely to continually flat out deny even the possibility of ETs existing and visiting earth and who sarcastically insist the investigation of the ETH is futile and a waste of time should not be able to continue to post that here because the actual purpose of this forum IS the investigation and discussion of the ETH and it's possible relationship to UFO's.

Such people are not open to the premise this forum is built on and so have nothing to contribute but denial of the purpose of the forum itself. They are merely hecklers. I'm sorry if this upsets you but as has already been made clear, that is the purpose of this forum, and such posts run completely counter to that purpose.

I never said that people had to subscribe to a belief in the ETH, as you claim. I said that they should be open minded to the possibility (as true skeptics are), otherwise there is no point them being here endlessly posting denial. As Springer said "this is a discussion forum". If people are not here to discuss the ETH in relation to UFOs but just here to closed mindedly deny the very possibility of Alien life, and mock the concept and those who investigate it, then they do not belong here.


Are you kidding me? Don't you see the hypocrisy in your statement.
I do think my post is very relevant to your thread, because it exposes your bias.


Are you referring to your two other completely off topic and irrelevant posts or this last one? Whichever, you haven't said anything to 'expose' any bias, you have just claimed that I am biased. And, as has already been made clear by Springer, the type of posts I am talking about in this thread are not allowed at ATS and should be alerted and will be removed by Mods because they do run contrary to this forums purpose.

If you think that is 'biased' then you should look again at this forums mission statement and take it up with ATS.


[edit on 25-10-2009 by Malcram]




posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 08:03 PM
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reply to post by Malcram
 

Wouldn't it be easier if we could just ban all thick people?
Or instead we could kill them then they couldn't log on...



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 08:21 PM
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reply to post by Malcram
 


ATS has become like any other forum where people enjoy trashing each other and creating negative energy that is counterproductive to rational discussion of ANY issue.



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 11:05 PM
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reply to post by Malcram
 


Look, I understand that you want to BELIEVE that ETH is real, but that's the rub. I can believe in the possibility that the earth is flat, I can believe that the sky is green, but facts don't support my belief-system. You've stated:



I have noticed recently an increasing number of members whose posts make it clear that they absolutely DO NOT BELIEVE IN EVEN THE POSSIBILITY of Alien life or of ET piloted craft visiting earth.


It's not about believing, it's about data and facts. There is no data out there that shows without a shadow of a doubt that UFOs are ET-made and aliens have made no official public contact. Why???

I'm very happy to learn if you can present undeniable proof. That's what I meant with my post about CNN.



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by Nichiren
reply to post by Malcram
 


Look, I understand that you want to BELIEVE that ETH is real, but that's the rub. I can believe in the possibility that the earth is flat, I can believe that the sky is green, but facts don't support my belief-system. You've stated:



I have noticed recently an increasing number of members whose posts make it clear that they absolutely DO NOT BELIEVE IN EVEN THE POSSIBILITY of Alien life or of ET piloted craft visiting earth.


It's not about believing, it's about data and facts. There is no data out there that shows without a shadow of a doubt that UFOs are ET-made and aliens have made no official public contact. Why???

I'm very happy to learn if you can present undeniable proof. That's what I meant with my post about CNN.


Nichiren, you and I and others who don't share the views expressed on this thread are beating our heads against the wall. I understand that we are persona non grata because of our differing opinions. We are being told to not disturb their status quo. These people are happy commiserating with each other about unreasonable and unreachable goals. I'm not coming back after this reply and you ought to consider moving on to threads that will appreciate your logic which is useless here. Ciao.



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 12:17 AM
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If non believers can accept there are people who believe in the possibility of ET why can't believers accept there are people who don't.

It would be ignorant to ask non believers to wait at the door wouldn't it?



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 12:43 AM
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Originally posted by Jazzyguy
reply to post by Chadwickus
 






No, I don't think it's too much to ask since this is ATS, people come here for precisely that reason. If they absolutely believe that it's impossible for ETs to exist, they should stay away from ATS and stay with the mainstream forum or at least stop calling people names. Unless their real reason of coming here is to feed their addiction to conflicts.


Actually many skeptics come to ATS because the UFO phenomena bothers their ALT belief system (accepted-learned-taught). If for instance there is no God, then evidence of supernatural events would have to be denied in force, even to the point of disbelieving their own senses and eyes.

Same with the ET/UFO argument. If there are no other intelligent beings besides humans who descended from apes, then the ET presence would have to be denied in force, since admitting that they exist leads one down the path of intelligent design by a far more advanced intelligent being. Evolution theory is thrown out the window.

So, that is why they argue until they are blue in the face on both sides, Each trying to achieve something for furtherance of their own agenda, or beliefs, or science, or again just for the sake of argument to take a side and be counted.

[edit on 26-10-2009 by skepticantiseptic]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 03:57 AM
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reply to post by Nichiren
 


Nichiren, again, your post has absolutely nothing to do with the subject being discussed in this thread and is totally off topic.

I'm not sure if you are intentionally trying to derail the thread by continually trying to avoid the topic and raise other issues which you think will be contentious, or if you are just unable to grasp what is actually being discussed here. Either way, your comments are irrelevant and aren't making any sense within context and If I were to address them any further it would just further derail the thread. So we're done here. Further off topic posts will be alerted.

If you want to continue this preferred discussion of yours then I suggest you start a thread in which it would be on topic and I'll be happy to speak with you there.


[edit on 26-10-2009 by Malcram]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 04:08 AM
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Originally posted by and14263
reply to post by Malcram
 

Wouldn't it be easier if we could just ban all thick people?
Or instead we could kill them then they couldn't log on...


Hmm, no that would be completely unreasonable.

However, maintaining the actual original purpose of this forum and requiring that participants have a modicum of open-mindedness and respect for the subject this forum was created to investigate and for those who are engaged in that investigation, is entirely reasonable, rather than insisting that the premise the forum was created to investigate is categorically false, those who entertain it are idiots, and that the whole subject is a stupid waste of time. Such 'comments' serve no useful purpose and have no place here.

Again, I should point out that it has already been confirmed with Springer that the kind of posts I am talking about in this thread - which some are defending so vigorously - ARE against ATS rules and are not permitted and should be alterted and brought to the mods attention. If you don't like it take it up with ATS.


[edit on 26-10-2009 by Malcram]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 04:20 AM
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Originally posted by nerbot
If non believers can accept there are people who believe in the possibility of ET why can't believers accept there are people who don't.

It would be ignorant to ask non believers to wait at the door wouldn't it?


Absolutely. Which is why I have done nothing of the sort.

All you have to do to confirm that is read the OP and my posts carefully, as I have made this crystal clear well over a dozen times now. Perhaps you are unknowingly taking your cue from what a few angry posters have falsely claimed I am saying - which is a usual tactic to engender conflict and derail a reasonable thread they don't like - rather than reading what I actually said?

I have never said that non believers should wait at the door. I have said that endless abusive denial of the very possibility of ET life - as in "Haha! Wake up! There is NO ET LIFE! Stop persuing this fantasy and do something productive with your lives! I repeat ETs DO NOT EXIST! There will NEVER be disclosure because there is nothing to disclose! Sorry" - should be kept out of this forum as it is totally unproductive and only derails threads by creating unnecessary conflict.


[edit on 26-10-2009 by Malcram]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by converge

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
As already highlighted by one of the Site Owners the bias that you speak of, such as it is, is already built into the forum.


Are you talking about Springer's post? There's nothing in it about any bias whatsoever.

What do you mean?


I'm referring to the forum description at the top of the page which states ...Members who would seek to refute such theories should be mindful of AboveTopSecret.com's tradition of supporting the examination of the "extraterrestrial phenomenon".

Springer said


Originally posted by Springer

Originally posted by Malcram
I have no problem with skeptics. This thread is not about skeptics, but those who have made up their mind that there is nothing to investigate, because ETs don't exist and the whole investigation is futile and pointless.



Those type are what the "ALERT" button is for. People who espouse such bollocks are not here to discuss and therefor will not be tolerated period.


It's quite clear that the forum is not intended for people who outright deny the possibility that ETs exist. The only proviso is that such posts will not necessarily be removed but that MODS will have the discretion to determine the intent behind the post.

Any discussion since Springer's post is moot. End of Story.

It's ironic that 'Skeptics' who pride themselves on their logic appear to be responding to what they believe Malcram is saying rather than what he actually said.

I will reiterate that the following is true in the context of this forum:

"UFOs are probably not extraterrestrial, there is certainly no evidence I've seen that convinces me that they are." That's cool.

"Aliens do not exist therefore UFOs cannot be alien spacecraft." Not cool.

There is a clear logical difference between the two statements, one which any student of logic should be able to grasp easily.


[edit on 26/10/2009 by MarrsAttax]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by MarrsAttax
It's quite clear that the forum is not intended for people who outright deny the possibility that ETs exist.

I don't see why not. As long, as the description mentions, people present those hypothesis with whatever they consider good arguments and/or evidence to back it up.

Doesn't the description mention people willing to refute those theories? Then you have to accept the possibility that some people will refute the theory that there is extra-terrestrial life, period.

I'm not saying they will successfully be able to substantiate the argument, or that I will agree with it, but that happens with many believers and their theories as well. I don't deny the possibility of our planet being visited, but numerous theories connected or concluding the extra-terrestrial hypothesis aren't very compelling in many cases, in my opinion.



It's ironic that 'Skeptics' who pride themselves on their logic appear to be responding to what they believe Malcram is saying rather than what he actually said.

And you are concentrating on a very small percentage of people who deny everything without any supporting argumentation or evidence. But there's people like that on the other side of the spectrum as well, perhaps you don't notice them as much because of your position and personal beliefs on the subject.

The 'rules' apply to both sides. Most skeptics - not pseudoskeptics - support their arguments. Most 'believers' - not true/doe-eyed believers - support their arguments. You might disagree with those arguments, but that's where the discussion part comes in.



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by skepticantiseptic
Same with the ET/UFO argument. If there are no other intelligent beings besides humans who descended from apes, then the ET presence would have to be denied in force, since admitting that they exist leads one down the path of intelligent design by a far more advanced intelligent being. Evolution theory is thrown out the window.

Humans didn't descend from apes. We share a common ancestor with them.

Your argument doesn't make sense. The chances that an alien intelligent being, having developed on an alien planet with in all likelihood different conditions and environment, descending from apes is very very unlikely. Who's to say there are even apes on their planet?

More, how does an intelligent being being related to other species would disprove that we evolved from a common ancestor with apes? If dolphins evolved to be as intelligent as humans are now, our evolution and relation to other animals would still be true.


[edit on 26-10-2009 by converge]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by converge

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
It's quite clear that the forum is not intended for people who outright deny the possibility that ETs exist.

I don't see why not. As long, as the description mentions, people present those hypothesis with whatever they consider good arguments and/or evidence to back it up.

Doesn't the description mention people willing to refute those theories? Then you have to accept the possibility that some people will refute the theory that there is extra-terrestrial life, period.


If anyone could prove there was no extra terrestrial life they would be God - it's impossible to prove a negative.

People who refute the theory that UFOs are extraterrestrial are not being discussed here. It is people who take a starting position that there is no possiblity of UFOs being ET in origin. The OP is not suggesting that people shouldn't personally hold this view, only that they shouldn't be allowed to derail threads in the Aliens & UFOs forum. The clue is in the title. There are plenty of other forums on the internet where such views are welcomed.


Originally posted by converge
And you are concentrating on a very small percentage of people who deny everything without any supporting argumentation or evidence. But there's people like that on the other side of the spectrum as well, perhaps you don't notice them as much because of your position and personal beliefs on the subject.


Yes, I'm concentrating on them because they are the people the OP is talking about.

You are right about the other side of the coin. However, annoying though such people may be, they are not contravening the stated purpose of the forum. I don't write the rules.

As far as I'm concerned the discussion about the original topic has already been settled. If you look at my first post you will see I think Malcram has overstated the problem and I believe there are mechanisms in place to deal with such troublemakers. I've only continued to post because I think it's unfair that Malcram's points have been so misrepresented.



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by MarrsAttax
You are right about the other side of the coin. However, annoying though such people may be, they are not contravening the stated purpose of the forum.

The purpose is discussion, so I don't see how the denialists are hindering the purpose of the forum anymore than those people.

In any case, and regardless of our different views, it's been made clear that no further actions will be taken, and certainly not in the way Malcram asks for, about the people he targets with this thread anymore than what already is contemplated by ATS' T&C. So I agree with you on the point that, since made clear by some members of the ATS staff, the discussion about that is moot.


[edit on 26-10-2009 by converge]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by convergeThe purpose is discussion, so I don't see how the denialists are hindering the purpose of the forum anymore than those people.


Hi Converge.

Frankly, t doesn't mater whether you 'see how' or not, they contravene the rules and purpose of this ATS forum "and will not be tolerated. Period.", as Springer has clarified. So as far as that aspect of things is concerned, it's case closed.

And it's a contradiction to speak of "denialists" taking part in a "discussion". They cannot and do not do so. They just deny. As Marrs has pointed out, it cannot be proven that ET life does not exist or that ET is not visiting earth so they cannot 'refute' this concept - so the repeated bald denial of this possibility is pointless and contravenes the purpose of ATS, which is, as you yourself say, discussion.

As I said earlier, I have no real problem with people attempting to make the argument that it is impossible for ET life to exist or to visit earth. I have no problem with debate and evidence based argument to this end (despite the fact that it can't ever be categorically proven that ET life does not exist so it's a bit of a futile exercise, IMO). I made it clear, repeatedly, that I was specifically talking about posts which made no argument but simply DENY OUTRIGHT the very possibility of ET life and visitation and often with great sarcasm and derision. Are you and others here seriously defending such posts and seeking to make sure they proliferate at ATS? Why?


In any case, and regardless of our different views, it's been made clear that no further actions will be taken, and certainly not in the way Malcram asks for


What been clarified is that the people I am talking about in the OP and this thread do not belong at ATS and we have been reassured that such posts will be removed and the people who repeatedly post them dealt with. And it has been clarified that members should feel free to alert such posts in order to assist the Mods in enforcing the forums rules and maintaining it's original purpose. I for one am grateful for this clarification and reassurance from Springer and hope that members do exactly as he asked of us in future, and make sure such all posts are brought to the Mod's attention.

Looks like this is a situation where the members need to help this forum more to maintain it's quality and original purpose.


[edit on 26-10-2009 by Malcram]



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by Malcram
 


I think your signature perfectly describes what you are doing here. Open-minded you are definitely not! Instead of attacking me I would have liked you to address my questions and statements re proof of ET's existence. To me, that's the core point in your initial statement.

I believe that your OP is fundamentally flawed. I always felt that allowing a dissenting opinion is the strongest sign of a healthy community. That is also how the Supreme Court of the US works. You seem to disagree and that's fine. Fortunately not everybody has to march in lockstep with you. I would have expected a more mature approach from somebody who initiated this very thread.



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by Nichiren
reply to post by Malcram
 


Look, I understand that you want to BELIEVE that ETH is real, but that's the rub. I can believe in the possibility that the earth is flat, I can believe that the sky is green, but facts don't support my belief-system. You've stated:



I have noticed recently an increasing number of members whose posts make it clear that they absolutely DO NOT BELIEVE IN EVEN THE POSSIBILITY of Alien life or of ET piloted craft visiting earth.


It's not about believing, it's about data and facts. There is no data out there that shows without a shadow of a doubt that UFOs are ET-made and aliens have made no official public contact. Why???

I'm very happy to learn if you can present undeniable proof. That's what I meant with my post about CNN.




So basically you want Malcram to present undeniable proof of the existence of extraterrestrials before you will entertain the possibility they might exist. And this in a forum called 'Aliens & UFOs'.

Don't expect much do you?



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 12:20 PM
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reply to post by MarrsAttax
 


No, I just want him to understand that anybody who says ET don't exist is on the same level as somebody saying they do exist. The proof is in the pudding and he hasn't presented the pudding yet.



posted on Oct, 26 2009 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by Malcram
Are you and others here seriously defending such posts and seeking to make sure they proliferate at ATS? Why?

I'm not defending any posts, I'm defending the freedom for everyone to post whatever they like, as long as they follow the rules. But that has always been the case, not just because you started this thread.



What been clarified is that the people I am talking about in the OP and this thread do not belong at ATS and we have been reassured that such posts will be removed and the people who repeatedly post them dealt with.

So we could have avoided all this back and forth if you had just, privately or directly, asked for a clarification to your doubt from the moderators; but instead you ended up coming across as wanting to prohibit the participation of some members because they were 'annoying' to you.



And it has been clarified that members should feel free to alert such posts in order to assist the Mods in enforcing the forums rules and maintaining it's original purpose.

And, again, that was already standard procedure and made well aware of.

I'm glad however that you are finally reassured that the rules that were in place before, will continue to be in place after your thread




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