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The U.F.O. Party Gatecrashers

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posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by Pathos
Within my above reply to the thread's owner, I never once mentioned that I didn't believe aliens exited elsewhere. You can believe that aliens exist elsewhere, and at the same time believe they have not visited the Earth. They are not inclusive.


And I didn't say that. If you re-read my post, the first sentence, the one you quoted you can read:

Originally posted by converge
You argue that there is no evidence that extra-terrestrial life is visiting Earth




If you look around your environment, life is just busting from Earth's seems. All life on Earth share the same universal motivations, which is the search for shelter, food, and reproduction.


I wasn't talking about those basic 'motivations'. Those are like primal needs more than anything else. I was talking about your statements that they would have taken the planet, stopped human evolution, or wouldn't have a need to abduct humans.



Intelligence comes from mastering the environment in such a way that it contributes to the longevity of a species.


I disagree. I think, in fact, it's the other way around - mastering the environment is the result of our intelligence. Evolution also shows us that the longevity of a species is dependent on the species' adaptation to the environment, not necessarily because of intelligence.



In order for any species to make it to Earth (or another planet), they would have to be masters of their environment. Tools and materials to build (...)


I agree on this point. From what we know the humanoid shape is the most efficient for any animal that wishes to work with tools and eventually build complex things. No doubt about that.

I'm not convinced, however, that the shape alone is indicative of a species' motivations. Even if an alien species were similar to ours when it comes to physiology, it doesn't mean they would necessarily have the same thought processes or motivations.



According to the main premise behind Roswell Gray aliens, they use cloning to prolong their species.


Do you believe the Roswell alien theory? For some reason I was convinced you didn't. Or are you relying on it just to support the assumptions about their motivations?



Since human methods for reproduction haven't changed for 12,000 years, they could have done all their research a millennium ago. They would have solved their own reproductive issues a long-long time ago.


You are making the assumption that is why they abduct people. And not only it is an assumption, it's an assumption based on the assumption aliens are abducting people based on the assumption aliens are coming here.



Why do they need to abduct several members of the human species? They wouldn't.


We. Don't. Know. That's my point. What's wrong with saying you don't know? All I'm saying those are all assumptions since we just don't know.



Shelter, food, and reproduction are the key motivations of all species. Regardless about where they are in the galaxy, they need to master them before reaching another world.


So tell me. Why would then beings who have not only mastered those basic elements you mention, but have also mastered complex elements in order to travel through space, would need such a basic element as "taking our planet" (territory), or "stopping our evolution"?



In order to understand what is in the sky, you would have to understand the human condition.


If that's not a clear example of the anthropomorphization you're doing, I don't know what is.



Before we can come to any alien conclusions


When you assume to know an alien's motivations, you're way beyond the alien conclusion, so I don't know why are you telling me to not rush to any conclusions.


[edit on 24-10-2009 by converge]




posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by converge
 

You are missing one of the greatest human stories of our time. We are crossing boundaries in information, transportation, and aerospace technology in real time. Everything from the Egyptian Pyramids to the International Space Station (and beyond) is all human ingenuity. They were created by a human need to seek out something better than ourselves. We are driven by the yearning to define our place in existence.

If you don't think the US AirForce is interested in space, you shouldn't be reading this: www.space.com...


"NASA has a long history of involvement with the X-37 program. We continue to monitor and share information on technology developments," said Gary Wentz, chief engineer Science and Missions Systems Office at the NASA Marshall Space Flight Center. "We are looking forward to a successful first flight and to receiving data from some advanced technologies of interest to us, such as thermal protection systems, guidance, navigation and control, and materials for autonomous re-entry and landing."


God only knows how many other types of vehicles, which we have developed through out the years. The AirForce has been working on aircraft that enter and exit our atmosphere for decades. We are now getting a glimpse of our future.

Space Systems Company
www.lockheedmartin.com...


Space Systems Company designs, develops, tests, manufactures and operates a full spectrum of advanced-technology systems for national security, civil and commercial customers. Chief products include human space flight systems; a full range of remote sensing, navigation, meteorological and communications satellites and instruments; space observatories and interplanetary spacecraft; laser radar; fleet ballistic missiles; and missile defense systems.


Its right there in black and white. Do you think companies like Lockheed advertise all of their projects? How many of them are in full production or in use? How many unknown x-planes do you think we have not made public?

Skeptics remind believers that we are living a human story.

[edit on 24-10-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 10:35 PM
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reply to post by Pathos
 

I appreciate your lengthy response, but I don't see the relevance of any of it.

Why are you bringing this up in response to my post? You are mischaracterizing my position on things I haven't even addressed in my posts.



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 10:40 PM
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reply to post by converge
 

I'm covering all of my basis, for your posts have underlying questions. Hidden behind your questions and answers are the real ones. You are asking questions indirectly. You have an alternate motive.

[edit on 24-10-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by Chadwickus
reply to post by Malcram
 


Well considering that the latest "believers vs skeptics" battle has recently subsided, I gotta question the timing of this thread.

With that out of the way, your suggestion of controlling and weeding out anyone who doesn't believe in UFO's is borderline ridiculous.

Like any subject, there are going to be people at both extremities, so you're gonna have to accept this fact, once you do, you won't need to point out your dislike of psuedo-skeptics or whatever.


BTW expect this thread to turn into another one of those threads that you speak of.


Good for you, Chadwickus. I don't understand why people such as the OP don't start their own "believer" forum and then they can dictate who can and who can't post. But as long as the ATS administrators allow pro and con opinions that do not violate the TOS, people such as the OP will have to bite the bullet and just ignore the posters whose responses they don't like.



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 10:51 PM
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Originally posted by Pathos
I'm covering all of my basis, for your posts have underlying questions. Hidden behind your questions and answers are the real ones. Your asking questions indirectly.


I'm sorry to say you are mistaken. All the questions I'm asking I have made directly to you.

You apparently are portraying me, first, as someone who mischaracterized your position when it comes to extra-terrestrial life and visitation. It's quite clear from the first sentence of this post that I didn't. I stated that you didn't believe aliens were visiting Earth and you confirmed this was your position.

Now, you are implying that I don't believe UFOs can have Earthly explanations. Where do you get this idea from? I have never said such thing. On the contrary.

You're apparently also implying, therefor, that I shouldn't jump to conclusions. That's funny since that's what I've been saying you've been doing when you assume to know the motivations of aliens.

I'm left wondering if you're trolling me or you're simply extremely confused. In any case, nothing productive or even relevant, apparently, can come out of this discussion.



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by chiron613
 


If you read some of my threads/posts you'll find that I say the same thing you did about UFOs and ETs. But when you go "against" the mind of a believer your logic, common sense and reason, is ignored because they would rather be contrary and then they get nasty.

Glad to have read your 2 cents, priceless!



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by Jazzyguy
Here's an analogy. If you go to the church and you don't believe in Jesus, don't tell the people there that they're stupid and stuff for believing christ.

Is it a big problem in ATS, not really. But it's certainly a problem, especially since they're insulting in a subtle way, to avoid being discipline by the mods. Usually they do the "your belief is stupid", attacking the "post/belief" instead the poster, although what their real intention is to ridicule the poster for the poster belief in UFO, not even for poster's speculation.


Your "analogy" misses its definition. If you go to a church, that church is a closed system. If you go to ATS, any forum, it is an open system and all views are accepted as long as the views do not violate ATS TOS.



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 10:58 PM
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reply to post by converge
 


What gave you away is that you said "their motivations". When I came up with an answer, you changed the definition of "motivations". You are searching for something, and you are waiting to pounce. I gave you something else to think about.


Originally posted by converge I wasn't talking about those basic 'motivations'. Those are like primal needs more than anything else. I was talking about your statements that they would have taken the planet, stopped human evolution, or wouldn't have a need to abduct humans.


reply to post by converge
 

Within the context of how you ask the question, I gave you an answer on how I interpreted what you said.

Your question was pretty clear to me. What you were asking is - How can you define another lifeforms motivations based upon human motivations? Even though you have never meet another species, it is impossible to make such assumptions. How is that possible?

I gave you my answer. I told you how I came to those conclusions.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Originally posted by converge Do you believe the Roswell alien theory? For some reason I was convinced you didn't.

Nope and never will. If you read my post properly, you will notice I was using them as an example. I was trying to make a point.

When it comes to the classification of aliens, I call the gray ones 'The Roswell Grays'. Since UFO mythology connects the two, I just referenced them in that manner. I personally don't know what to call them. 'The Grays'? Maybe?

[edit on 24-10-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 12:05 AM
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While I agree that people who deny even the possibilities on a subject as complex as UFOs are wasting their own time visiting forums like this, the solution is a lot simpler than the OP is proposing.

I've only used it a couple of times myself, but the ignore button is all you need.

And the moderation is excellent anyway. No changes required IMO.



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 03:35 AM
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Totally agree! one Star to you. I wonder why so many skeptics come here
,this is UFO & Alien forum!!!!



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 04:08 AM
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Originally posted by Nichiren
Let me type it slowly for ya: there is no indisputable proof that ET is real. You are assuming things. Otherwise you should post it here and silence the skeptics for all eternity.


A good example of the type of post Malcram is talking about - off-topic, needlessly antagonistic and contrary to the forum's purpose. The purpose of the forum is not to 'silence skeptics' but to discuss possible explanations.

Let me try and spell out what Malcram is saying in simple terms (forgive me for paraphrasing you Malcram)

"UFOs are probably not extraterrestrial, there is certainly no evidence I've seen that convinces me that they are." That's cool.

"Aliens do not exist therefore UFOs cannot be alien spacecraft." Not cool.

Clear?


[edit on 25/10/2009 by MarrsAttax]



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by Nichiren
Let me type it slowly for ya: there is no indisputable proof that ET is real. You are assuming things. Otherwise you should post it here and silence the skeptics for all eternity.


Thanks for typing slowly for me Nichiren.

However, your post is still not relevant to this thread. There were no assumptions about the existence of ET life in my posts here. You appear to be making a random 'post by'. Please reread the OP so you know what the topic is.



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 06:42 AM
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Originally posted by Skeptical Ed
Good for you, Chadwickus. I don't understand why people such as the OP don't start their own "believer" forum and then they can dictate who can and who can't post. But as long as the ATS administrators allow pro and con opinions that do not violate the TOS, people such as the OP will have to bite the bullet and just ignore the posters whose responses they don't like.


You're completely misrepresenting my position in this thread Ed, but implying that I want to silence "responses I don't like". I've been crystal clear about which posts I am objecting to and they DO contravene ATS rules and undermine it's purpose.

Actually this has already been clarified.

Springer has made it clear that the type of posts I am complaining about in this thread are NOT permitted at ATS and should be alerted so the Mods can deal with them. So, I won't have to 'bite the bullet' on this issue at all. Rather those who have a completely closed mind are are only here to deny the very possibility of ET life and visitation to earth and to mock and sneer at those who sincerely investigate this will have to go elsewhere.

It's about time the sincerely open-minded members of this form (both true 'skeptics' and rational 'believers') felt free to make full use of the alert button, in accord with what Springer said above, to prevent this culture of closed minded snarky denial and pseudo-skepticism from gaining any more of a foothold in this forum than it already has, and hopefully, eliminating it altogether. It serves no useful purpose at ATS but simply engenders endless conflict and derails thread after thread.


[edit on 25-10-2009 by Malcram]



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 08:40 AM
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reply to post by Pathos
 





NASA has a long history of involvement with the X-37 program.


Many of the Nasa vehicles roots can be traced back to German scientists through the Bell program. The X37 wing design was pioneered by the Horton brothers. Unfortunately the HO 5 crashed on its first flight in 1937.
Although originally designed as a plane with a much lower ceiling the basic aerodynamics made it suitable for a high altitude reentry vehicle.

www.ctie.monash.edu.au...

Advanced technology like this gets rationally onion routed through many related reincarnations. Many of the posts here on ATS are superpositions of information that can be read different ways. Generally if a post does not make sense to you it is safe to assume that it is just over your head, not that there is a problem with the posters reasoning.

If you are a newbe it takes a while and you need to read a few ATS posts before you start seeing the easter eggs.



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by Malcram


To be perfectly honest, I think if a member says something like 'Wake up! ETs do not exist! UFO's are not ET craft! Disclosure will never come because there is nothing to disclose!' etc, that members should be able to alert such posts and mods should remove these members ability to post here. Not as a punishment, but because there is no point such people being here as they contribute absolutely nothing to the the debate and only serve to generate unncecessy conflict.

They act purely as a 'drag factor' and an obstacle, and nothing more. And frankly, this forum has enough problems without that. This would at least be a start and might reduce the unproductive and combative atmosphere in this forum somewhat.

Any thoughts?


[edit on 24-10-2009 by Malcram]


Sorry, but you are intellectually dishonest. You clearly asked "any thoughts" and I gave you my thoughts. Your initial statement says that anybody who claims that ET don't exist should be banned. You simply reverse the attitude of the worst "debunkers" and make it a belief-system that everybody should subscribe to. Are you kidding me? Don't you see the hypocrisy in your statement.

I do think my post is very relevant to your thread, because it exposes your bias.



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 12:44 PM
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Just a quick chime in here...

While I am extremely glad this MUCH needed discussion is happening in a mature and reasonable manner.
I think it is also showing the major aspect of why we have this "believer-skeptic" problem in the first place. It is all too apparent that ufology as become a religion of sorts. We have people arguing over nothing but faith and non-tangible evidence. People harassing others who do not believe the same way they do. It is almost like humans have some innate desire to make something that is largely without any solid evidence a matter of faith and belief, rather than science and the pursuit of truth, which is what it should be. I think the sooner we can all get passed this religious-like obsession with the UFO phenomena the sooner we might find out what is really going on.


[edit on 10/25/2009 by jkrog08]



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by Nichiren

....You simply reverse the attitude of the worst "debunkers" and make it a belief-system that everybody should subscribe to. ...

I do think my post is very relevant to your thread, because it exposes your bias.


He has done nothing of the sort. As already highlighted by one of the Site Owners the bias that you speak of, such as it is, is already built into the forum.

Malcram is not saying you have to believe what he believes, nor even that you can't believe the existence of extra terrestrials is unproven. He is saying that in order to post in the Aliens & UFOs forum, you should not hold a position that starts from the premise that extraterrestrials do not and cannot exist. And he is not saying you can't hold hold this belief or propound these ideas elsewhere but just that in this particular forum they are antithetical to the forum's stated purpose. I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp.



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by MarrsAttax
As already highlighted by one of the Site Owners the bias that you speak of, such as it is, is already built into the forum.


Are you talking about Springer's post? There's nothing in it about any bias whatsoever.

What do you mean?



posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 03:09 PM
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Sorry i havent read past page one of replies, and if this doesnt make sense then that is the reason.

I think the OP has it spot on, hes just using an analogy to convey his point that agnostics are not constructive.




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