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The U.F.O. Party Gatecrashers

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posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by Malcram
And if the disbelief is proclaimed repeatedly as fact - "There are no ET's. It's ridiculous to believe that" - then that is not a "discussion" but a pointless proclamation, a useless sermon. It's only an annoyance.


Then don't debate those people. This seems pretty simple and obvious to me.



We've been over this several times. I don't think we are going to get any further.


Agreed.




posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by Malcram

Originally posted by Wh00pS
Ok then this means that if i start a thread in the UFO section stating that " I 100% do not believe that ET life exists" then this means that you would not be able to join in said discussion because you find what i have just said to be absurd.


LOL. I'd be interested to see if you were going to argue the case or were just stating disbelief. If it was just disbelief/denial, I'd wonder why you were at ATS at all, as obviously your mind would be made up and therefore you have nothing to contribute to the investigation except your denial of it's value. I might also post that in your thread.


[edit on 24-10-2009 by Malcram]


But thats what im getting at, you wouldnt be able to post in the thread due to the rule which you yourself are proposing, because you dont believe in what im stating in such a thread, the rule has to work both ways


At the end of the day it's just easier to use the ignore button instead of having a thread with X amount of pages which is probably going to lead to nothing



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by Wh00pS
But thats what im getting at, you wouldnt be able to post in the thread due to the rule which you yourself are proposing, because you dont believe in what im stating in such a thread, the rule has to work both ways


LOL No it doesn't. If the premise of the forum is the support of the investigation of the ETH then those who believe an investigation of the ETH is futile and stupid because no ETs exist have no place in such a forum.

IMO, it's simply testimony to how far the forum has drifted from is claimed purpose that this fundamental concept is being contested.

If you started such a thread in a new dedicated ATS forum for deniers of the ETH then I'd happily avoid it.



[edit on 24-10-2009 by Malcram]



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by Malcram
 


I can Imagine your frustration. And it would be easy if everybody felt the same thing. about what you believe or not

But if there were no skepticism. We all would be sheep with out a herd.
some times they can put feet back on the ground but some can also put your whole ego in the ground.

The thing is most of us cant proof the things we write about . sometimes with source from some news paper you can direct them from your path and they will hit the source with skeptical illusions that they wanna sell.

Then you can almost follow it from sideline.
I think its all a game.
And they are losing this game!

And they know it



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 04:49 PM
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This thread is little different than the common skeptic v. believer threads and it has the same goal.

Malcram is right, there is sometimes a toxic atmosphere in some of the threads. He said little wrong in the opening paragraphs of his post. However, where he goes off the rails is attributing this to just one perceived extreme position and advocating the official sanction of this perceived extreme. I say perceived because often extremism is subjective. One man's extremism is another's rational position. For instance, a skeptic will often be accused of not believing in extraterrestrials in toto for not subscribing to the ETH, no matter how adamant said skeptic is that they do believe in life Out There. Similarly, we see closed-minded used as an ad hominem against someone for the simple act of disagreeing. And often someone writing a rational, thought-out post will be accused of being hysterical or attacking whomever they are responding to.

As others have brought up, what Malcram is advocating would be detrimental to the forum and only increase the toxic atmosphere. It would further divide us. When a dissenting post is made, instead of focusing on the point, many here would focus on the member making the post and any perceived underlying attitude. Indeed, in subsequent posts on the matter, Malcram and his supporters seem to have moved away from what certain members say but the underlying attitude behind it.

In fact, in latter posts, Malcram makes it very clear his intentions. He has no problem with extreme positions as long as it is extreme positions he is sympathetic to. He has no problem with the closed-mindedness as long as that closed-mindedness supports his beliefs. He does not care about the contributions that many believers make to the toxic atmosphere. What Malcram wants is to shut down dissent to a particular viewpoint. Any and all dissent.



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by 0bserver1
reply to post by Malcram
 


I can Imagine your frustration. And it would be easy if everybody felt the same thing. about what you believe or not

But if there were no skepticism. We all would be sheep with out a herd.


Thanks Observer


Although I have no problem with disagreement or true skepticism, which I agree, is very useful. True skeptics remain open-minded to the possibilities and that's all I think is needed.



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 05:12 PM
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Notice who it is throwing around labels such as "disinfo agent" or ad hominems such as "closed-minded" for those they don't agree with. Notice who wants to focus on whether a member is a "pseudo-skeptic" instead of focusing on the substance of their post. Notice those who want to ban people for holding certain viewpoints they don't agree with.

Notice who is doing these things then ask yourselves if it's really the ETH-skeptics who are creating a toxic atmosphere.



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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Hi Rex. I'm not sure who exactly you are addressing in your post. You seem to addressing everyone in the "room" except me with your critique of my thread and my posts. But I'll respond as if you were talking to me, for the sake of the discussion.



Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
Malcram is right, there is sometimes a toxic atmosphere in some of the threads. He said little wrong in the opening paragraphs of his post. However, where he goes off the rails is attributing this to just one perceived extreme position and advocating the official sanction of this perceived extreme. I say perceived because often extremism is subjective. One man's extremism is another's rational position.


But this ignores the purpose of this forum.

Support for the discussion and investigation of the "ET phenomenon" is the stated purpose of the forum. While it might be nice to welcome all "extreme positions", those which run directly counter to the purpose of this forum and actually undermine it have no place here. You are ignoring this. The outright denial of even the possibility of ET life and of ET visitation runs directly counter to the purpose of this forum and serve no purpose but to stall it and generate uneccessary conflict.

It seems like some would like to reconfigure the forum's purpose as the membership steadily come to include more and more who do not share the original stated aims of ATS and this forum in particular.


As others have brought up, what Malcram is advocating would be detrimental to the forum and only increase the toxic atmosphere. It would further divide us. When a dissenting post is made, instead of focusing on the point, many here would focus on the member making the post and any perceived underlying attitude.


Would it? Would they? How do you know?

Seems to me that it's a very, very simple requirement for participation that I'm asking - to have an open mind to the possibility of ET life and ET visitation to earth. That's it. People can be as skeptical as they like, as long as they are not continually denying the very possibility of ET life and the ETH and insisting it's investigation is futile and the preserve of the mentally incompetent. That's not much to ask in an "Aliens and UFO" forum, is it? it beggars belief that this would be seen as unreasonable and cast as some attempt to suppress the legitimate views of members.


In subsequent posts on the matter, Malcram and his supporter seem to have moved away from what certain members say but the underlying attitude behind it.


Hmm. You then immediately go on to repeatedly cast aspersions my supposed attitude and my intentions.


In fact, in latter posts, Malcram makes it very clear his intentions


My 'intentions' have not been hidden, but have been very explicit Rex. I'm not sure why you would want to claim you have to somehow reveal them to everyone. You seem to be implying I have a secret agenda. Not cool. And the uncoolness keeps on coming



He has no problem with extreme positions as long as it is extreme positions he is sympathetic to. He has no problem with the closed-mindedness as long as that closed-mindedness supports his beliefs. He does not care about the contributions that many believers make to the toxic atmosphere.


I've addressed this at length and explained my position and I can't help thinking this paragraph is specifically designed to polarize the readers and to "rally the troops" by totally misrepresenting my position (which is confirmed by you last comment, which we'll come to soon).

I have problems with a position which serves no purpose but to stall the discussion and which run contrary to the purpose of the forum - a forum created to support the investigation of the 'ET phenomenon'. I have a problem with closed minded posts which insist that the very investigation this forum was created to support is futile and stupid and that those who take part in it are gullible fools. I find unrestrained true believers to be irritating, but they do not oppose the investigation of the ETH, the very purpose of this forum. This paragraph of yours is totally ad hominem and completely untrue. As I said, not cool.

And now the crescendo that the last paragraph of yours was working towards!


What Malcram wants is to shut down dissent to a particular viewpoint. Any and all dissent.


More wild ad hominem. I've been perfectly clear about what I want throughout and why and it is certainly not to shut down dissent to a certain viewpoint. That should be perfectly clear to anyone who bothers to read what I actually wrote rather than your skewed 'Rex notes'.

To restate, what I 'want' is for the original raison d'etre of this forum to be maintained, and for participating members to have an open mind to at least the possibility that there may be ET life and the possibility that it may have visited earth.

I want the evidence to be open mindedly examined, without the prejudgement that the investigation itself is futile and those engaged in it are idiots because the premise it is based on is impossible and wholly wrong.

I'm asking for the bare minimum of objectivity in this regard and that you should resist than and insist my real intent is to shut down any and all dissent from the beliefs I hold is shocking and pretty disappointing.

Oh well.



[edit on 24-10-2009 by Malcram]



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by DoomsdayRex
 


LOL. You are very adept at what you do Rex, I'll give you that.


[edit on 24-10-2009 by Malcram]



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by MalcramIMO, participation in the Aliens and UFO forum thread should, at the very least, require openmindedness to the POSSIBILITY that ETs exist and that some UFO's may be ET craft. I'd like to see ATS enforce this requirement and deny participation to those who are completely closed-minded to the possibility and are only here to absolutely deny and to mock and sneer.

After reading your introduction post, I can see why you are having issues with skeptics. Even though I do respect your observations, I think they are shrouded by the search for the metaphysical. If we (skeptics & believers) are looking for 'truth', then we will need something that is physical in nature. Don't we?

Since we are talking about a physical foreign invader, don't we need some type of physical evidence to prove its existence?

Sure, we can look at tapes, pictures, and testimonials for clues; however, they only provide a fraction of truth. Since they are all based upon subjective interpretation, personal perspective, they will not tell you the whole truth. Tapes and pictures can also be doctored. Testimonials (interviews, books, and other formats) are limited to the knowledge of the person being interviewed, so you should question the person behind the storytelling. Who are they? Where do they come from? Do they have mental illness? What type of books do they read? Do they have an education? Are they making money from their experiences? Etc... You should also except one major factor, no one in the UFO community can tell you how every man made craft functions. If a person says they were in the know, I can guarantee you that they are lying.

Here is something believers also don't get:

If aliens have been visiting Earth since the dawn of time, they would have already taken over the planet by now. They would have interfered and stopped human evolution a long time ago. Experiments would have been done about 12,000 years ago when man was defenseless. I'm not saying that they will never-ever visit our planet, but I'm saying you should look at other possible logistics. Since they had a good 12,000 years to study mankind, they wouldn't need all those modern day abductions. Why all the abductions? They would have had their answers by now. Wouldn't they?

Approaching any subject with an open-mind is a good start; however, heavily open-minded people are easy to influence and manipulate.

When trying to identify an unknown object in the sky, there are many Earthly explanation to eliminate. Unless we can become an all knowing entity, we will never-ever be able to eliminate man made and natural causes. It impossible from our limited perspective.

Since we are talking about a physical foreign invader, we need some type of physical evidence to prove the existence of aliens? Until that one day comes where we have that proof, no one can currently prove the existence of extraterrestrials.

When a skeptic asks to see and touch a body (or ship), don't take what they are asking for to be foolish.

Physical = Physical Evidence
Metaphysical = Spiritual

When you are trying to prove the existence of aliens, which of those two mentioned above do you prefer? Physical or Metaphysical.


[edit on 24-10-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 06:10 PM
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Hi Pathos. Very interesting post. I'll have to get back to you on most of the points you made as it's late here and I'm falling asleep LOL.

On this point:


Originally posted by Pathos
Approaching any subject with an open-mind is a good start; however, heavily open-minded people are easy to influence and manipulate.


Good point, I agree, and that's where true skeptics are useful. They remain open minded, have not reached a conclusion, are willing to examine the evidence and where they consider something as yet unproven, they make that clear and explain exactly why.

I have no problem with skeptics. This thread is not about skeptics, but those who have made up their mind that there is nothing to investigate, because ETs don't exist and the whole investigation is futile and pointless.

As for your other points, I'll have to get back to you



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by Malcram
I have no problem with skeptics. This thread is not about skeptics, but those who have made up their mind that there is nothing to investigate, because ETs don't exist and the whole investigation is futile and pointless.



Those type are what the "ALERT" button is for. People who espouse such bollocks are not here to discuss and therefor will not be tolerated period.

This is a discussion forum.

I would caution you that just because you think that's what somebody meant in a post isn't going to get their post removed.

They would literally have to be as crass as what you've written. If they do that, then the post is OFF TOPIC and will be removed if it is brought to the attention of the staff.

Also remember this, with well over 6,000 new posts a day, we need the help of the membership to see posts like this and deal with them.

That's why the ALERT BUTTON exists... (is there an echo in here?)

Springer...



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by Pathos
If aliens have been visiting Earth since the dawn of time, they would have already taken over the planet by now. They would have interfered and stopped human evolution a long time ago. Experiments would have been done about 12,000 years ago when man was defenseless. (...) Since they had a good 12,000 years to study mankind, they wouldn't need all those modern day abductions. (...)


You argue that there is no evidence that extra-terrestrial life is visiting Earth, but somehow you know their, hypothetical, motivations? Those are assumptions you cannot make. You're giving extra-terrestrial beings human motivations.

These beings could have no relation or could have evolved in a completely different manner and environment, that could be radically different from human beings in all aspects, including thought processes, motivations and so on.

You either consider there's enough data for you to make these extrapolations, or they are based on your own personal beliefs and images of what intelligent extra-terrestrial life would do, or care about - making your statements par on those of the believers you talk about.



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by Malcram
 


Don't you think CNN would give anybody a million dollars if he/she had indisputable physical proof that ET existed. It would be the story of this young century.

Funny, it hasn't happened.



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by Springer
Those type are what the "ALERT" button is for. People who espouse such bollocks are not here to discuss and therefor will not be tolerated period.

This is a discussion forum.


Thanks very much for that.

I did also want to point out that the type of posts I am referring to are not exactly rare these days and are certainly on the increase as the ATS Aliens and UFO forum seems to be increasingly becoming a target for pseudo-skeptics and 'sport' posters whose purpose seems to be sneering mockery and/or outright categorical denial, rather than open minded discussion.

The following multi-starred post was one among several like it I noticed yesterday which I quote just as an example, and it's a pretty mild example of the type, but I'm too tired to spend any time searching for others, especially as we all know the type of post anyway:




"I hope this'll finally show those who want disclosure that it WILL NOT happen. Come on! If they wanted to disclose and if there was anything to disclose, they would regardless ... There's always an excuse for no disclosure. Please.

I wonder if the real freedom would be to not believe in life on other planets...hmmm...I think I'm right because there is NONE"


No disclosure ever because there's nothing to disclose because there's no life on other planets - "NONE". Case (and mind) closed, apparently.

Such posts contribute nothing positive whatsoever, IMO.

Now I'm definitely off to bed!



[edit on 24-10-2009 by Malcram]



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 07:34 PM
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Originally posted by Nichiren
reply to post by Malcram
 


Don't you think CNN would give anybody a million dollars if he/she had indisputable physical proof that ET existed. It would be the story of this young century.

Funny, it hasn't happened.


I'm not sure how your post is relevant to what we are discussing here?



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by converge
You argue that there is no evidence that extra-terrestrial life is visiting Earth, but somehow you know their, hypothetical, motivations? Those are assumptions you cannot make. You're giving extra-terrestrial beings human motivations.

Within my above reply to the thread's owner, I never once mentioned that I didn't believe aliens exited elsewhere. You can believe that aliens exist elsewhere, and at the same time believe they have not visited the Earth. They are not inclusive.

When it comes to comparing a foreign species to humanity, what other species should we compare them to?

If you look around your environment, life is just busting from Earth's seems. All life on Earth share the same universal motivations, which is the search for shelter, food, and reproduction. Intelligence comes from mastering the environment in such a way that it contributes to the longevity of a species.

In order for any species to make it to Earth (or another planet), they would have to be masters of their environment. Tools and materials to build shelter, vehicles, and farms, in an advanced society, would need to have evolved in such a way that they don't damage the environment (and they are efficient in what they do). Advance forms of protective reproduction methods would eliminate the possibility for the transmission of diseases, genetic defects, and illnesses.

According to the main premise behind Roswell Gray aliens, they use cloning to prolong their species. If something is wrong with their reproduction methods, they devolved as a species to such an extent its leading to extinction. That is not mastering your environment, nor it is mastering technology for that mater. Since human methods for reproduction haven't changed for 12,000 years, they could have done all their research a millennium ago. They would have solved their own reproductive issues a long-long time ago. Why do they need to abduct several members of the human species? They wouldn't. If alien abductions were true, we would only have a very-very few reported cases. Controlled studies based upon certain criteria only require a very small group of individuals. There would be less than 100 reported cases based upon gender, ethics, and age. You wouldn't have more than a hundred. Why so many modern day abduction cases? It would be a waste.

Shelter, food, and reproduction are the key motivations of all species. Regardless about where they are in the galaxy, they need to master them before reaching another world.

Malcram is looking for skeptics who understand the above mentioned logic, but he also wants them to keep the door open for other possibilities.

In order to understand what is in the sky, you would have to understand the human condition. Before we can come to any alien conclusions, the Earthly possibilities have to be eliminated. I don't know about you guys, I am sure to hell that I don't have ESP. I can only speculate about what our governments have been working on, and how they technologically evolved over the many years in production.

When a government official tells you to look right (at aliens), I would quickly turn my head to the left (at the government). Alien visitation is a great cover story to hide military secrets. Even though its not as exotic as the alien factor, the human factor is the more realistic and plausible answer.



[edit on 24-10-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by Malcram

Originally posted by Nichiren
reply to post by Malcram
 


Don't you think CNN would give anybody a million dollars if he/she had indisputable physical proof that ET existed. It would be the story of this young century.

Funny, it hasn't happened.


I'm not sure how your post is relevant to what we are discussing here?


Let me type it slowly for ya: there is no indisputable proof that ET is real. You are assuming things. Otherwise you should post it here and silence the skeptics for all eternity.



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 08:43 PM
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The problem with:

UFO Researchers (hobby and professional):
Nothing

Skeptics:
Nothing

The problem lies in the far off from these two catagories...the ones that call every satellite and airplane in the sky ETs from Wherever, or the ones that will immediately dismiss something before even clicking on the thread, much less reviewing the evidence without a open mind.

Both do a disservice to whatever field they pretend to represent.

Now...people may not believe in UFOs...but beliefs should be based on a reasonable amount of evidence, and I can see the point...along with that, someone might decide to believe based on the leads that are out there in swarms.

I think ultimately both sides can agree that something is happening now and again that is more than a simple weather balloon, and both sides are trying to find not simply an answer (we have been getting answers for 60 years from both sides)...but rather the truth.

The answer people are the ones that are to be avoided, and the ones loudest unfortunately..both sides.

I would like to believe in friendly ETs visiting earth, but I have yet to see any evidence of it...so I cannot fault any skeptic deciding to believe the opposite as ultimately it is just a lead they choose not to view.



posted on Oct, 24 2009 @ 08:44 PM
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Originally posted by Springer
Also remember this, with well over 6,000 new posts a day, we need the help of the membership to see posts like this and deal with them.


Are you saying you're understaffed?



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