Is Hell real?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
A Near Death Experience needs a person to die first.

A revelation from God can happen anytime God chooses to give one to a man or woman.

You are talking like "revelation from God" has already been shown to be a valid phenomena, from your perspective. Again, it has not been shown to be any different from any other type of "hallucination."

And it's not my "opinion" this man had a revelation from God, it's HIS OWN TESTIMONY.

Then it's a common opinion that the both of you share. Because you are both Christians, coincidentally enough. That's all.

When you can demonstrate that this man's hallucination was any different or more valuable than a hallucination of Buddha, Mohammad, or anyone else's fantasy or fancy, then I will start to pay attention. But if you are unable to demonstrate it's any different, then I'm left to conclude you are just perpetuating an ideological bias no different than a Buddhist or Muslim would.

reply to post by bsbray11
Then we can agree to disagree.

I'm glad you'll quit claiming this man had or did not have an NDE though.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Ah OK, I thought there were three temples this whole time originally.

After a little search on the temple itself, it hasn't been built exact as the first one. So with that in mind, there has been no destruction of the second temple as it hasn't been built to the exact specifications of the first temple. The supposed second temple had some minor changes made and quiet a few missing things required in the first temple.

So I suppose, the prophecy just hasn't come to light yet until the second temple is built to the exact specifications of the first temple as given by God, as you said.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Ah OK, I thought there were three temples this whole time originally.

After a little search on the temple itself, it hasn't been built exact as the first one. So with that in mind, there has been no destruction of the second temple as it hasn't been built to the exact specifications of the first temple. The supposed second temple had some minor changes made and quiet a few missing things required in the first temple.

So I suppose, the prophecy just hasn't come to light yet until the second temple is built to the exact specifications of the first temple as given by God, as you said.

Sources?

Don't shift the burden of proof to me to support your claim.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

This second temple was missing the Ark of the Covenant, the Urim and Thummim, the holy oil, the sacred fire, the Ten Commandments, the pot of manna, and Aaron's rod. The Kodesh Hakodashim was separated by curtains rather than a wall as in the first Temple. As in the Tabernacle, there was in it only one golden lamp for the holy place, one table of showbread, and the incense altar, with golden censers, and many of the vessels of gold that had belonged to Solomon's Temple that had been carried to Babylon but restored by Cyrus (Ezra 1:7-11).

en.wikipedia.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink">LINK

Both ancient Jewish Temples are of interest to Christians as well as to Jews. The Second Temple was modest in size and furnishing until Herod the Great began his grand remodeling plans which continued for 40 years. It was in this enlarged and expanded Second Jewish Temple and its grand courts where the naming and circumcision of Jesus took place (Luke 2:21-39). Later, Jesus astonished the religious leaders with his understanding and insight as a twelve-year-old boy (Luke 2:41-50). On two separate occasions Jesus entered and cleansed the temple by throwing out the money changers and commercial vendors from the courts. (John 2:12-25; Matthew 21:23-26)

LINK

I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound exact to God's specifications to me.

[EDIT TO ADD]

So if the Messianic Prophecies don't talk of a second coming, indicating that the Messiah would complete the prophecies outright during his reign on Earth and the Second Temple hasn't been built to the exact specifications as given by God and thus hasn't actually been destroyed as of yet due to this small problem, then the Messiah has not appeared yet. The prophecies neither indicate in which *year* the Messiah would come, only that he would come before the second destruction, which until the second temple is built exact as the first one hasn't happened yet.

But, let's look at the prophecy of God where he tells Satan he will give him his followers.

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer . . . be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. . . . Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Revelation 2:9-10, 3:9.

So let's look at Christians. Jesus was a Jew, but not a Jew as he went against Jewish belief and failed at being the Messiah nor are his followers Jewish. When I read that passage it reads as if this is talking about Jesus. Christians worship at Jesus' feet and 'know' that God loved Jesus and what not. Neither house to my knowledge bow's down to someone else' feet in worship, this is only something I see Christians doing.


[edit on 26-10-2009 by sirnex]

reply to post by sirnex


Maybe you've never known this, but.. HERE

INFO to note, a professor of statistics at MIT dis an experiment and determined that for just 1 man to fulfill 8 prophecies written about him thousands of years before his birth would be the same probability of an "X" being drawn on a quarter, and mixed in with a pile of quarters 1 foot deep the size of Texas, and a man being blindfolded and him pulling out the "X" marked quarter on the first try. That's just with 8 prophecies.

Jesus Christ fulfilled over 300, statistically this is impossible by someone other than the messiah.

HERE

Your "vineyard" was lent out to strangers because your people rejected and murdered your Messiah. Have no worries though, there are prophecies that state the Jews will be reconciled at the end times, they will accept their messiah when He comes back to destroy satan and set up His kingdom on Earth.

The "two witnesses" spoken of in Revelation will be Elijah and Enoch. The only 2 men in the OT who did not taste death. Both were raptured because the Word of God says "all men are appointed once to die, then the judgment".

The probability is ENORMOUSLY against any random man even fulfilling 8 of the prophecies Jesus did when He was born. Now when He fulfilled hundreds more, that makes it a mathematical impossibility for Him not to have been the Messiah.

BTW, the professor at MIT only looked at 8 prophecies that Jesus could NOT control, i.e. Born of a virgin, born in Egypt, etc.

Jesus Christ was your Messiah, His blood sacrifice on the cross was payment for all men's sins. He was the Lamb without blemish.

When He comes the 2nd time, He won't be coming as the Lamb, He will be coming as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the Lion of Judah. To destroy the NWO and set up His millennial kingdom.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So we're going to appeal to authority and completely disregard that the second temple has not been built to the specification of the first temple given by God as commanded by God meaning the prophecy has not been fully realized as of yet until the temple proper is built? Where are you getting this second coming BS from anyways? There is no Messianic Prophecy indicating a second coming. Why not just concede to the fact that Christianity is the synagogue of Satan that God describes, Jews that are not Jews who will worship before his feet.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
INFO to note, a professor of statistics at MIT dis an experiment and determined that for just 1 man to fulfill 8 prophecies written about him thousands of years before his birth would be the same probability of an "X" being drawn on a quarter, and mixed in with a pile of quarters 1 foot deep the size of Texas, and a man being blindfolded and him pulling out the "X" marked quarter on the first try. That's just with 8 prophecies.

Great. Now all that's left to prove is that the prophecies themselves actually being fulfilled.

Jesus Christ fulfilled over 300, statistically this is impossible by someone other than the messiah.

I think hundreds of years of zealous religiosity and propagandizing have given you more material to work with than is legitimate.

First of all let's prove that the man "Jesus of Nazareth" existed when and where you believe he did, and did the things you believe he did. Not just using the Bible, but other historical sources as well.

There were several well-known historians that were around in the time and place that Jesus supposedly was. Whether or not there was a single man that this "Jesus" stuff was pinned on, none of those historians ever made any reference to him or anything that he did. There is a reference to a "Christos" in one historian's account, but that name actually meant something specific in those times, particularly to the Jews.


Here is a list of the things the Jewish Messiah was to do upon his/her/its appearance (note that these were written BEFORE Jesus' time):

# Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
# The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
# He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
# The Mashiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
# Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
# Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
# He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
# All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
# Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
# There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
# All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
# The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
# He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
# Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
# The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
# The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
# Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
# Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)[2]
# He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
# He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

en.wikipedia.org...


Do I need to go down the list or is it clear what has and hasn't happened since Jesus' time?


Now the only question is -- in this age of information, communication, and a general wealth of knowledge -- do you realize what the OT originally was, who wrote it, and all of the things that it states as listed above? Or are you going to say things are different now since Jesus was supposedly here, even though he didn't fit the requirements for Messiah in the first place?

[edit on 26-10-2009 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Why not just concede to the fact that Christianity is the synagogue of Satan that God describes, Jews that are not Jews who will worship before his feet.

Are you mad? You're going to quote Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 which is God speaking to His Son Jesus Christ:

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." Revelation 2:9

Again God is talking to Jesus Christ:

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." Revelation 3:9

Re-read Revelation, specifically chapter 1 verse 1.

Because of the Messianic prophecies in the OT, ANYONE who claims to be the Messiah will have to PROVE that he is from the tribe of Judah and the line of David. Since the only way that was possible was through the genealogical records that were kept in the Temple, and since those records were destroyed with the Temple by the Roman Legions under Titus in A.D. 70, then the Messiah would naturally need to have come before then in order to be able to prove His Messiah-ship. Anyone coming after the destruction of the Temple claiming to be the Messiah, would obviously have to be rejected on the grounds that he could not prove his claim.
There was only one who claimed to be the Messiah and was able to prove His lineage through the Temple records...

And that man was Jesus Christ.

It must be gleaned from the OT prophecies that there are obviously 2 comings of the Messiah, there is a prophecy that the Messiah will come first as the suffering servant and he would be killed by His own people; Isaiah 53:5-12

And there is another prophecy that He will come again as the conquering King to stand on the mount of olives. Zechariah 14:3-4

You cannot fulfill both those prophecies with ONE coming. Both have Him rejected and killed by His own people and also a conquering King on the mount of olives... it's impossible with only 1 coming of the Messiah.

For those that really want to know if Yeshua is the prophesied Messiah or not, the only way to truly find the answer is by sincerely asking God:

"You shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart."

Jeremiah 29:13

reply to post by bsbray11


Wow, you only posted verses that prophesy His 2nd coming, what about the prophecies that the Messiah will be "hated, beaten, lied about, and murdered by His own people"??

Why didn't you post ANY of those prophecies???? Hmmmm?

Is it PERHAPS because a Messiah CANNOT fulfill all prophecies with ONE coming to Earth??

reply to post by bsbray11

And P.S., I hope you realize there is more contemporary writing about Jesus Christ both by His followers and those who hated Him than there are contemporary writing about Alexander the Great.

Even people who hated Jesus stated that He did many great works and miracles, but they attributed it to Him being a "magician" and from the power of satan.

Even those who hated His guts admitted He did miracles.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Wow, you only posted verses that prophesy His 2nd coming

Excuse my ignorance of Christian talking points, but where in the OT does it say the Messiah has to come twice before he accomplishes what he was supposed to come here to accomplish in the first place?

I didn't see any sources for the other claims you made, either.

reply to post by bsbray11
I posted this above:

"It must be gleaned from the OT prophecies that there are obviously 2 comings of the Messiah, there is a prophecy that the Messiah will come first as the suffering servant and he would be killed by His own people; Isaiah 53:5-12

And there is another prophecy that He will come again as the conquering King to stand on the mount of olives. Zechariah 14:3-4

You cannot fulfill both those prophecies with ONE coming. Both have Him rejected and killed by His own people and also a conquering King on the mount of olives... it's impossible with only 1 coming of the Messiah."

Even a 6 year old can tell you a dead man cannot reign over the whole Earth from Jerusalem. Are you under the impression there are no OT prophesies that the Messiah would be "hated, beaten, lied about, rejected by, and murdered by His own people"??

How does one correlate these prophesies?? Either A: there are two prophesied Messiahs, or B: There are 2 comings of one prophesied Messiah.

A or B??

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Or C: it's all a bunch of bull anyway and it's been changed and manipulated constantly by all sorts of power-hungry individuals for thousands of years.

The bottom line is there is no spiritual merit to all this mythology. You can think you are living a righteous life if you want, but I just don't buy it. Hitler could have found validation in the Bible for killing so many Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals if he looked hard enough.

Guys put it this way. God is a alien, period. Hell is a perspective of what we are going through with our lives. It very well depends on where we live and how we live. Karma usually dictates of what we deserve in life. So don't blame it on God, blame it on ourselves, because we attracted this unwanted energy. One of these days energy will rebalance itself, and we'll be in happiness once again, think of our lives and everything else as a cycle.

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Or C: it's all a bunch of bull anyway and it's been changed and manipulated constantly by all sorts of power-hungry individuals for thousands of years.

The bottom line is there is no spiritual merit to all this mythology. You can think you are living a righteous life if you want, but I just don't buy it. Hitler could have found validation in the Bible for killing so many Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals if he looked hard enough.

no one lives a righteous life dude, I'm a sinner, everyone sins. thank God he says in His Word that the believer in Jesus Christ isn't judged by our works of righteousness, no one would have a chance them. trust of Christ and His righteousness alone.

I'll be the FIRST to tell you my life has been ANYTHING but righteous!!! That's the beauty of the free gift of grace and mercy offered by God through His Son Jesus Christ our Lord Savior.

Listen to this man, he has had TWO experiences with the afterlife, one when he was going up, and the other when he was going down because he was into witchcraft.

Video

The Word of God says "all our works are filthy rags" to God. And "whosoever believes on His only begotten Son shall have everlasting life".

I'm the last one to claim righteousness on this website, I sin daily and have to ask for forgiveness. I was a monster before I was born again.

Is Hell real?

Yes it is, and all of humanity is currently living in it. It's called "planet earth." The good thing is that heaven is also here, too...if you can access it.


An old zen tale:

A soldier named Nobushige came to Zen master Hakuin, and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"

"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.

"I am a samurai," the warrior replied.

"You, a soldier!" exclaimed Hakuin. "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? Your face looks like that of a beggar."

Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword, but Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably much too dull to cut off my head."

As Nobushige drew his sword Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"

At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, sheathed his sword and bowed.

"Here open the gates of paradise," said Hakuin.


[edit on 10/26/09 by silent thunder]

reply to post by silent thunder


All of THESE men say otherwise.

And they have seen the other side, "been there, done that" kinda thing.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


That video features NDE's. Like I said earlier, people see all sorts of different things during NDE's, and not just heaven or hell.

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

That video features NDE's. Like I said earlier, people see all sorts of different things during NDE's, and not just heaven or hell.

I know it does, but the point I was making to the other gentleman was that people who had the NDEs who didn't have the Lord as their Savior all described going to a place that they NEVER wanted to return to, a place of sheer terror.

Every single one of them. One of the people on the video who gave their testimony even went to Hell once, was resuscitated, died again went to Hell, was resuscitated, accepted Christ by prodding of the doctor who brought him back, then the next two times he died on the floor of the hospital room went to Heaven. This man died several times while they were attempting to restart his heart again and get the pacemaker working on him.