'A Universe From Nothing' by Lawrence Krauss, AAI 2009

reply to post by EnlightenUp


I still have to disagree. Personal experiences has lead man to develop a lot of spiritualistic idea's, such as rain God(s) and yet we now know that form of personal experience is faulty to a point of being utterly wrong. The same applies when we call in for thing's like ESP or prayer, with the effects easily attributed to something mot mystical or spiritual at all. Personal experience even being used to develop a new theory, like trying to bring QM into the equation is faulty because QM does not actually allow for those things, which many people do not even realize. I've thought it myself, but as I learned more about the theory I realized I was dead wrong in what it was saying. Now I know better. Even the erroneous use of 'energy' as a way to explain these thing's is wrong.

reply to post by sirnex


You're filling in all sorts of gaps that my assertion does not require, most namely with refutations of superstition. Do not conflate realization with experience or experienceing a realization. What I believe in particular of what exists as far as other realms, dragon universes or magic has no bearing here.

One thing is for sure, no theory of everything is a theory of everything unless it accounts for everything. I do not need to bring in QM, M-Theory or other pseudodrivel explanations to know there is a problem. My prediction is that the more is accounted for, the more complete our understanding of the physical the more obvious the problem will be. Perhaps a solution will come but it will be of a nature not yet explored, at least in a rigorous way.

I will wrap it back into personal experience anyway.

Why would the world that it appears that you align yourself with even discuss the hard problem of consciousness when there is absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever that a first-person experience of qualia exists? It's all anecdotal evidence and you know it. No number of reports counts as evidence. It should be categorized as superstitious nonsense. Do you acknowledge or deny this said phenomenon as fact?

I see only one option for you.

reply to post by EnlightenUp

One thing is for sure, no theory of everything is a theory of everything unless it accounts for everything. I do not need to bring in QM, M-Theory or other pseudodrivel explanations to know there is a problem. My prediction is that the more is accounted for, the more complete our understanding of the physical the more obvious the problem will be. Perhaps a solution will come but it will be of a nature not yet explored, at least in a rigorous way.

What I find uniquely interesting is that most if not all of these 'experiences' can be and some have been shown to occur all within the brain. What it sounds like to me is that you would rather the TOE explain these thing's as existing outside of the brain, regardless of labs being able to reproduce these events in a controlled setting.

Why would the world that it appears that you align yourself with even discuss the hard problem of consciousness when there is absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever that a first-person experience of qualia exists? It's all anecdotal evidence and you know it. No number of reports counts as evidence. It should be categorized as superstitious nonsense. Do you acknowledge or deny this said phenomenon as fact?

I am what you would call a qualophobe. Red isn't red because it is red, rather it's red because the brain interprets that particular wavelength separately from the other wavelengths and then we utilize our capacity for language to label that particular wavelength as red. Red can equally and validly be called twelve or bridge.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by EnlightenUp

 

What I find uniquely interesting is that most if not all of these 'experiences' can be and some have been shown to occur all within the brain. What it sounds like to me is that you would rather the TOE explain these thing's as existing outside of the brain, regardless of labs being able to reproduce these events in a controlled setting.

Ah, but they have not. They've only shown correlates of neural activity to reported conscious experience. We know correlation isn't causation (please excuse my use of that cliche, I had to ). Even if the TOE explains it on a neurological level, it is still left to explain this other thing. If it cannot or will not explain it while remaining adamant that it is a TOE, it has to admit that something is outside its reach, at least as it stands. Once it does that it is no longer a TOE. To remain a TOE it must deny what's obvious to a good number of experiencers.

I am what you would call a qualophobe. Red isn't red because it is red, rather it's red because the brain interprets that particular wavelength separately from the other wavelengths and then we utilize our capacity for language to label that particular wavelength as red. Red can equally and validly be called twelve or bridge.

That is an interesting roundabout denial. Basically you said you deny its existence. Very well. The weavers blush. Red is red in its essence because it looks red. I have attached a label to a particular descrimination. I still see the this thing I happen to have associated with various other things. I can call it "tunafish" and the essential basic thing is not lost, though it seems smellier than usual.

You are dealing with it on the level of the easy problems that are not unlike determining how the ATA controller in a SoC functions.

reply to post by EnlightenUp

Ah, but they have not.

Have not what?

They've only shown correlates of neural activity to reported conscious experience. We know correlation isn't causation (please excuse my use of that cliche, I had to ).

Effects are reproducible.

Even if the TOE explains it on a neurological level, it is still left to explain this other thing.

What other 'thing'?

If it cannot or will not explain it while remaining adamant that it is a TOE, it has to admit that something is outside its reach, at least as it stands.

So your demanding that this 'other thing' resides outside of the brain whilst lacking to explain it yourself.

Once it does that it is no longer a TOE. To remain a TOE it must deny what's obvious to a good number of experiencers.

Such as rain Gods instead of water cycles?

Red is red in its essence because it looks red.

Red is not red because it looks red. It is red because we agree upon labeling that wavelength of light as red. Red can equally be labeled milk dud. Our brains could even interpret that wavelength as a different color or not process that wavelength at all or properly as in color blind individuals.

The so called 'experience' of red, or "qualia" is nothing more than an attempt to mysticize a natural occurrence and process of how the brain differentiates between various inputs. Without showing how consciousness is separate from the brain and body and is experiencing these "qualia" of it's own direct accord, then all arguments of "qualia" are moot. We can show that consciousness is a direct effect of a species brain. composed of many different systems acting in unison and any one system dis-functioning or failing to work at all has a direct effect on the state of consciousness itself. Without the brain, there is no consciousness.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by EnlightenUp

 

Have not what?

By tweaking the brain they have not shown that the experience of experience originates in the brain even if experience, or perhaps more accurately, the specific form experience takes originates in the brain.

Effects are reproducible.

Of course they are. Alter the brain and what is observed by the reasearcher changes in fairly predictable ways if the function of various regions are known. Subjective reports of subjects are in fact observations by the researcher.

What other 'thing'?

This other thing. The thing I know is there. My personal inner experience of my experiences.

So your demanding that this 'other thing' resides outside of the brain whilst lacking to explain it yourself.

It isn't being explained by anyone. Even the idea of a soul is a homunculus. That is obvious but in itself neither confirms nor denies the soul's reality. Really, I don't need that here anyway.

Such as rain Gods instead of water cycles?

Ummm...no. That's just your attempt at being patronizing towards me. It's rather pathetic. I am neither bothered nor deterred. It makes me laught a bit and so in a way you are giving me a blessing.

Red is not red because it looks red. It is red because we agree upon labeling that wavelength of light as red. Red can equally be labeled milk dud. Our brains could even interpret that wavelength as a different color or not process that wavelength at all or properly as in color blind individuals.

What is red in essence is not subject to change. You've just admitted it would require a different interpretation to not experience it as such, in which case it would no longer be "it". If someone experiences a lemon as sweet rather than sour, they are experiencing sweet, not sour.

'Miracle fruit' turns sour things sweet

There are also myriad colors I have no name for but can still see. In fact, they must be seen first then a label attached to the perception. I saw colors before classifying them. The essences haven't changed, only the associations. Those associations do bend the experience a little but don't take away the essential substance of it. They don't make red look cyan. If I could bend it that far it would be an experience that isn't of red. Even in cases of color illusions, the experience is of the final shift in perception to something other than the wavelengths correlations.

Zombies may in fact exist. You may be one. I cannot say for sure. At least your are being somewhat consistent with the only logical possibility that your assumptions leave open to you. One thing is for sure, my own internal awareness of my awareness is not subject to your evaluation of your own subjective state, which is the only thing anyone can really know. Outside of that, all is subject to fakery.

We can show that consciousness is a direct effect of a species brain.

Who is "we" and how have y'all shown it? Nothing has been shown that consciousness itself, the experiencing of experience, awareness of awareness, the apparent presence of qualia rather than the specific ones, is a direct effect of any spiecies' brain. Great knowledge is being uncovered however in how an organism operates and is quite intriguing.

The problem is is that if you are one of those zombies, you'll not have any grasp of what I am speaking. If you have been blind since birth, you'll never understand the visual experience of purple or a painting no matter how much I speak about it. The only possible way to have that understanding is the experience.

Without the brain, there is no consciousness.

I could agree more along the lines of without the brain, there is no experience, at least not of the variety of a human or other biological entity. With a different brain, there is different consciousness. Anyone denying that a good smack to the head can alter the apparent organism is clearly delusional.

reply to post by EnlightenUp

By tweaking the brain they have not shown that the experience of experience originates in the brain even if experience, or perhaps more accurately, the specific form experience takes originates in the brain.

They've been able to show certain areas of the physical brain that fire up when these experiences happen, showing that the physical brain is a part of the process.

Of course they are. Alter the brain and what is observed by the reasearcher changes in fairly predictable ways if the function of various regions are known. Subjective reports of subjects are in fact observations by the researcher.

If consciousness were not a direct effect of the brain, then why does it utterly rely on the proper working of the brain and why does alteration of the physical brain effect consciousness itself?

This other thing. The thing I know is there. My personal inner experience of my experiences.

experience is an abstraction of memory of past events.

It isn't being explained by anyone. Even the idea of a soul is a homunculus. That is obvious but in itself neither confirms nor denies the soul's reality. Really, I don't need that here anyway.

Experience is explained, hell I even just explained it.

Ummm...no. That's just your attempt at being patronizing towards me. It's rather pathetic. I am neither bothered nor deterred. It makes me laught a bit and so in a way you are giving me a blessing.

Your full of it. Personal experience and certainly such an obvious experience as praying and receiving rain whilst not understanding the water cycle is certainly just as valid as the garbage I am hearing here.

What is red in essence is not subject to change. You've just admitted it would require a different interpretation to not experience it as such, in which case it would no longer be "it". If someone experiences a lemon as sweet rather than sour, they are experiencing sweet, not sour.

Wrong. It is simply labeled sweet. We can label it dog crap, does that now mean we are tasting dog crap?

There are also myriad colors I have no name for but can still see. In fact, they must be seen first then a label attached to the perception. I saw colors before classifying them. The essences haven't changed, only the associations. Those associations do bend the experience a little but don't take away the essential substance of it. They don't make red look cyan. If I could bend it that far it would be an experience that isn't of red. Even in cases of color illusions, the experience is of the final shift in perception to something other than the wavelengths correlations.

If the brain even interprets them to begin with or interprets them as color and not various levels of pain.

Zombies may in fact exist. You may be one. I cannot say for sure. At least your are being somewhat consistent with the only logical possibility that your assumptions leave open to you. One thing is for sure, my own internal awareness of my awareness is not subject to your evaluation of your own subjective state, which is the only thing anyone can really know. Outside of that, all is subject to fakery.

And unicorns and dragons and God and little keebler elves.

Who is "we" and how have y'all shown it? Nothing has been shown that consciousness itself, the experiencing of experience, awareness of awareness, the apparent presence of qualia rather than the specific ones, is a direct effect of any spiecies' brain. Great knowledge is being uncovered however in how an organism operates and is quite intriguing.

Consciousness is another way of saying self aware.

The problem is is that if you are one of those zombies, you'll not have any grasp of what I am speaking. If you have been blind since birth, you'll never understand the visual experience of purple or a painting no matter how much I speak about it. The only possible way to have that understanding is the experience.

Ah, your one of *those* people.... Cute.

I could agree more along the lines of without the brain, there is no experience, at least not of the variety of a human or other biological entity. With a different brain, there is different consciousness. Anyone denying that a good smack to the head can alter the apparent organism is clearly delusional.

OK, good. So your not one of those nutters who think consciousness is some magical thing that detaches from the body after we die? I assumed you were for your other nuttery.

[edit on 3-11-2009 by sirnex]

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by EnlightenUp

 

They've been able to show certain areas of the physical brain that fire up when these experiences happen, showing that the physical brain is a part of the process.

I agree on that. It's too obvious that the brain is important to the man, even to my own inner experience.

experience is an abstraction of memory of past events.

I'm experiencing experience NOW, as I type this along with those pesky qualia that will never go away. Perhaps the real armageddon will be fought over it-- between the Zombies and the Awares. LOL.

Experience is explained, hell I even just explained it.

Ok, call off the scientists. We don't need them now. It's all explained.

The problem with a TOE is that the TOE must declare what "everything" is and formulate around that. Tied to that TOE for better or worse comes "everything else" that it decided it didn't need to include.

Wrong. It is simply labeled sweet. We can label it dog crap, does that now mean we are tasting dog crap?

If it's a new experience and there is no label, then it's difficult to call it anything. If some chemical altered the brain so that a new color appeared in an hallucination that can't be made from any primaries, then it something unique that cannot be communicated in words to convey it, other than to say essentially that it was just too weird to explain. YOU, having not experienced that anomaly, cannot know what I experienced. It is patently obvious to me.

If the brain even interprets them to begin with or interprets them as color and not various levels of pain.

With synaesthesia, it is certainly possible.

Letters look like frozen sound patterns to me, to the point they look like facey mouths making a silent sound. That's the truth. It's about the best description I can come up with for it. I have asked others and they do not know what I am talking about. If you do not experience text in that manner, do you know what I really mean about my own consciousness in that regard? No way.

And unicorns and dragons and God and little keebler elves.

The term "zombie" relates to entities that are not conscious but perform all the functions and have all the responses of the organism, etc; etc. It's not about faeries, goblins or unicorns.

Consciousness is another way of saying self aware.

It's a lousy was to define it. I don't think it requires awareness of being a self, not on an intellectual level anyway.

Ah, your one of *those* people.... Cute.

Ahem, perhaps.

OK, good. So your not one of those nutters who think consciousness is some magical thing that detaches from the body after we die? I assumed you were for your other nuttery.

I'm probably worse. It's never really attached to the body per se. In some pure form it exists in a potentiated way but not defined by brain organization. What it experiences is related to brain organization.

But, I am checking most of my more aberrant thinking at the door. Catch me in a thread about astral projection you'll see a nutter extraordinaire. I'll even argue with a different set of rules.


[edit on 11/3/2009 by EnlightenUp]

reply to post by EnlightenUp

I agree on that. It's too obvious that the brain is important to the man, even to my own inner experience.

Good, at least we're not 'mysticizing' something natural.

I'm experiencing experience NOW, as I type this along with those pesky qualia that will never go away. Perhaps the real armageddon will be fought over it-- between the Zombies and the Awares. LOL.

Are you really? How can you experience something that you recall moments before a next 'now'?

Or rather, let's define experience and now so we can have more understanding here.

Ok, call off the scientists. We don't need them now. It's all explained.

That's a bold statement, certainly not one I made.

The problem with a TOE is that the TOE must declare what "everything" is and formulate around that. Tied to that TOE for better or worse comes "everything else" that it decided it didn't need to include.

What 'everything else'? If we ever develop a TOE, then what would be left that it just decided to not include? How would that be considered a TOE? Your not making much sense there.

If it's a new experience and there is no label, then it's difficult to call it anything. If some chemical altered the brain so that a new color appeared in an hallucination that can't be made from any primaries, then it something unique that cannot be communicated in words to convey it, other than to say essentially that it was just too weird to explain. YOU, having not experienced that anomaly, cannot know what I experienced. It is patently obvious to me.

Your right, your brain interprets various inputs differently than mine. Your genetic code created a uniquely different neural network that will interpret everything different. So where is the 'qualia'? If sweet is sweet to you and not sweet to me, then does sweet exist as something to "be experienced" or is it just something you labeled?

Letters look like frozen sound patterns to me, to the point they look like facey mouths making a silent sound. That's the truth. It's about the best description I can come up with for it. I have asked others and they do not know what I am talking about. If you do not experience text in that manner, do you know what I really mean about my own consciousness in that regard? No way.

I still don't see how this qualifies as a concept of 'qualia'.

The term "zombie" relates to entities that are not conscious but perform all the functions and have all the responses of the organism, etc; etc. It's not about faeries, goblins or unicorns.

Ah OK.

It's a lousy was to define it. I don't think it requires awareness of being a self, not on an intellectual level anyway.

All life is self aware to a degree, thus conscious to a degree. The brain is composed of many different systems working in unison all to certain various degrees.

I'm probably worse. It's never really attached to the body per se. In some pure form it exists in a potentiated way but not defined by brain organization. What it experiences is related to brain organization.

Never attached? So where was it before your birth? What evidence do you have for that statement?

But, I am checking most of my more aberrant thinking at the door. Catch me in a thread about astral projection you'll see a nutter extraordinaire. I'll even argue with a different set of rules.

Let's call astral projection the willful conscious meditative dream-state.




[edit on 3-11-2009 by sirnex]

At this point in the discourse, I am impelled to reach into a different bag of communicative tools in order to express the ineffable.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
I'm experiencing experience NOW, as I type this along with those pesky qualia that will never go away. Perhaps the real armageddon will be fought over it-- between the Zombies and the Awares. LOL.

Originally posted by sirnex
Are you really? How can you experience something that you recall moments before a next 'now'?

Or rather, let's define experience and now so we can have more understanding here.

I AM experiencing NOW. Experience through the senses and cognition is actually an impression from the past. The movements of the ions through the axons are a memory of their cause. Form is a memory of that which did the forming. In this sense, I AM experiences NOW, ever-and-swiftly-changing memories of moments that are gone.

NOW is the experience, I AM. The man of I AM experience is always dead. The man of NOW is yet to be known and is unknowable. In that "future" NOW, he won't be that man that was in that NOW. I AM sees a ghost.

The NOW is NOW and does not change. It is a fixed "point" of ALL. Form passes before it, the old selflessly giving its very life to shape the new.

In this we can see why decisions are made before we are aware we made them. We can also see why absense of experience is not experience of absence (ie. the illusion of why your identity appears to have continuity rather than pointility).

Originally posted by sirnex
[Ok, call off the scientists. We don't need them now. It's all explained is] a bold statement, certainly not one I made.

To wit:

Originally posted by sirnex
Experience is explained, hell I even just explained it.

If all is certain about what experience is, there is nothing to learn about it. We can allocate funds to more perplexing subjects.

Originally posted by sirnex
What 'everything else'? If we ever develop a TOE, then what would be left that it just decided to not include? How would that be considered a TOE? Your not making much sense there.

Precisely.

Originally posted by sirnex
Your right, your brain interprets various inputs differently than mine. Your genetic code created a uniquely different neural network that will interpret everything different. So where is the 'qualia'? If sweet is sweet to you and not sweet to me, then does sweet exist as something to "be experienced" or is it just something you labeled?

And what did I have available to label if I didn't experience it first? In that, my cognitive organ had to have the potential to process it in such a way that it can be categorized.

Originally posted by sirnex
I still don't see how this [experience of letters] qualifies as a concept of 'qualia'.

It is not experienced intellectually. It is experienced subjectively as belonging to. However, even the experience itself of intellect is qualia.

Originally posted by sirnex
Never attached? So where was it [your consciousness] before your birth? What evidence do you have for that statement?

It is not really MY consciousness. Our consciousness is the same consciousness. Before I was born, it never experienced me. It is currently experiencing us.

When my biological processes halt, it will stop experiencing me, here, now-- even if the essential form can be transfered after death into a different medium. The interesting thing is, is that this also occurs across the moments, leading to what we consider a "lifetime". Yes, we are now experiencing the residue of this process, NOW. Also, the process can be observed in process but the experience is not observed across interconnections of form.

Originally posted by sirnex
Let's call astral projection the willful conscious meditative dream-state.

You may willfully call is as you please. That is only partly correct from my vantagepoint. For it to be truely willful for myself would help evaluate its nature. To perform research with those experienced individuals who can do it willfully and naturally would be more valuable than relying on NDE's, stories of accidental flukes or using invasive stimulation to the temporoparietal junction.

Good post. Star+flag.

More people should watch this video.. but somehow I doubt it will ever "reach" any of the people who need it most.

For all of us who are sane, however, and gifted with intelligence, this was very refreshing.

EnlightenUp, I tried to read all your replies.. but I don't have nearly enough patience or tolerance to go through that much garbage. I just wanted to say that I think, in my own personal opinion, that you are totally "missing the plot," as the English would say. Thank you.

reply to post by EnlightenUp

Experience through the senses and cognition is actually an impression from the past.

Isn't that the gist of what I was just saying? Maybe I am just remembering a conversation I had with my wife about this post.

If all is certain about what experience is, there is nothing to learn about it. We can allocate funds to more perplexing subjects.

As I said, I never laid claim that everything was explained. What experience is may be explainable, but the process therein is still not explained fully, hence the research. Like evolution and gravity.

Precisely.

Evade tactics again. You still have not explained this other thing nor have you explained how your drawing the conclusion that a TOE would leave this other thing as unexplained.

And what did I have available to label if I didn't experience it first? In that, my cognitive organ had to have the potential to process it in such a way that it can be categorized.

Abstract thought and capacity for language.

It is not experienced intellectually. It is experienced subjectively as belonging to. However, even the experience itself of intellect is qualia.

I disagree.

It is not really MY consciousness. Our consciousness is the same consciousness. Before I was born, it never experienced me. It is currently experiencing us.

What evidence do you have for that claim?

When my biological processes halt, it will stop experiencing me, here, now-- even if the essential form can be transfered after death into a different medium. The interesting thing is, is that this also occurs across the moments, leading to what we consider a "lifetime". Yes, we are now experiencing the residue of this process, NOW. Also, the process can be observed in process but the experience is not observed across interconnections of form.

I refer to my above question.

You may willfully call is as you please. That is only partly correct from my vantagepoint. For it to be truely willful for myself would help evaluate its nature. To perform research with those experienced individuals who can do it willfully and naturally would be more valuable than relying on NDE's, stories of accidental flukes or using invasive stimulation to the temporoparietal junction.

It would be more valuable to conduct these thing's in a controlled setting rather than taking word of mouth on the honor system that these people aren't lying or speculating on a remembered lucid dream-state.

Good Post!
And the two of you have some interesting things to say. Might you two think that maybe you are both right or that maybe you are both wrong or that parts of each other statements are true!

Originally posted by Key2life
Good Post!
And the two of you have some interesting things to say. Might you two think that maybe you are both right or that maybe you are both wrong or that parts of each other statements are true!

sirnex is essentially trying to say I don't experience what I experience (ie. I don't believe in qualia therefore you don't experience them). This is clearly absurd since I experience what I experience at all times as no alternative exists for me as an experiencer (the alternative being that I don't experience what I experience). Such an assertion is a form of manipulation. The question of its "correctness" relative to "objective" observations, which don't exist because an observer is always involved, needs not even be considered. sirnex's experience of my experience doesn't match my experience of my experience. If our experiences were in lock-step, we would be indistinguishable to each other as separate entities and could not even meet in order to carry on a conversation.

Wrong, there are FIVE lights!

Except in this case there is noone to save me from sirnex's deception but myself! Noone else can observe the "lights" to reassure me that there are really four, except on faith of course. Bravo to his Cardassianmanship!

I/you do/don't experience what I/you do/don't experience.

I experience what I experience.
I don't experience what I experience.
I experience what I don't experience.
I don't experience what I don't experience.

You experience what I experience.
You don't experience what I experience.
You experience what I don't experience.
You don't experience what I don't experience.

You experience what you experience.
You don't experience what you experience.
You experience what you don't experience.
You don't experience what you don't experience.

I experience what you experience.
I don't experience what you experience.
I experience what you don't experience.
I don't experience what you don't experience.


[edit on 11/7/2009 by EnlightenUp]

reply to post by EnlightenUp

sirnex is essentially trying to say I don't experience what I experience (ie. I don't believe in qualia therefore you don't experience them).

Not at all, I am just not elevating the status of experience to something that it is not.

This is clearly absurd since I experience what I experience at all times as no alternative exists for me as an experiencer (the alternative being that I don't experience what I experience).

We have our five senses, but at no time are those five senses or the brains ability to process the inputted information from the sensory organs an accurate enough depiction of reality to simply state that I experience red because it is red. All that is doing is simplifying the issue.

The question of its "correctness" relative to "objective" observations, which don't exist because an observer is always involved, needs not even be considered.

Pure BS honestly. A conscious observer is not required for thing's to exist and there is no theory or observation to prove this assertion.

sirnex's experience of my experience doesn't match my experience of my experience.

Case in point against concepts like qualia. You may process a particular wavelength and label it red by your capacity to abstractly think about that information received and your ability to use language to apply a label to it, whereas I may not even process that wavelength the same way and it would appear to be a different color or heck, I could experience it as pain.

If our experiences were in lock-step, we would be indistinguishable to each other as separate entities and could not even meet in order to carry on a conversation.

You would be on to something there only and *only if* we were actually the same individual person and not separate entities. Seeing as how we are separate biological entities, your argument is worthless and wrong. Experiencing the same thing's or living the same life would not inherently make us the same person. We are composed of separate genetic coding instructions that give rise to our own separate personality traits. Even in identical twins raised the same way don't inherently come out into life the one and the same indistinguishable from one another.

Except in this case there is noone to save me from sirnex's deception but myself! Noone else can observe the "lights" to reassure me that there are really four, except on faith of course. Bravo to his Cardassianmanship!

Cute, but pointless crap spouting that doesn't really appear to help your case in my opinion.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by EnlightenUp

 

Not at all, I am just not elevating the status of experience to something that it is not.

Precisely how I experience myself is irrelevant to debate in itself rather simply posing an inquiry on your part out of curiosity as it not testable by any instrument. This is not an elevation of anything.

If you mean the initial posts, I intended to be clear early-on that I'm not here to convince you of the reality of any personal trancendence or advanced knowledge grasped even momentarily. I know there are certain things you will resist rather than remain ambiguous about. One thing I do claim is that the knowledge is available to investigation and will be unlocked at the appropriate time. So, I'll just keep that on track.

We have our five senses, but at no time are those five senses or the brains ability to process the inputted information from the sensory organs an accurate enough depiction of reality to simply state that I experience red because it is red. All that is doing is simplifying the issue.

You do not understand the issue. This is either something beyond your grasp or you deny it for the sake of conflict, which I expect you to deny. I am not foolish, not naively so. I wasn't born yesterday.

Pure BS honestly. A conscious observer is not required for thing's to exist and there is no theory or observation to prove this assertion.

Not at all. Theories don't prove assertions until they've been proven consistent with evidence. That reveals your ignorance about investigation.

The observation IS in fact that many report to experience something of a similar nature to what I also know I experience. Their claims have empirical evidence for me personally. You will not succeed in undermining a well-established fact for them or I. It just won't happen for all eternity. If your knowledge cannot encompass that and your empirical data cannot establish that, it is your shortcoming, not mine. You will eventually find yourself sharing company with the flat-earthers. You will find what you are seeking.

That a conscious observer is not required is supposition as this universe does have conscious observers. There is no evidence you have to the contrary as no universe without conscious observers has been observed (at least no reports have been published to my knowledge). The idea seems absurd given that observing it would imbue it with conscious observation. That conscious observation is limited entirely to animalistic material forms is undecidable and unproveable in a general way at this point merely by their needed presence to prove it. Wherever you assign the cutoff point of "conscious observation" is the limitation you have imposed and the domain you have circumscribed.

Case in point against concepts like qualia. You may process a particular wavelength and label it red by your capacity to abstractly think about that information received and your ability to use language to apply a label to it, whereas I may not even process that wavelength the same way and it would appear to be a different color or heck, I could experience it as pain.

Since you deny qualia, you considerer it only as a concept or philosophical construct? Do you readily grasp this concept with little effort? If so, that is rather suggestive of your actual intuitive experience of it and suggests that your denial is an artifice.

Experience of the quality of perception that is "red" is because of particular patterns. I don't label a wavelength and I don't see a wavelength. In fact, my experience in no way resembles a wavelength. I know what a graph of a sinusoid looks like but I haven't the slightest clue what a wavelength looks like. A wavelength is a complete abstraction and something that does not exist in and of itself in the time domain that we experience.

Also, I've never experienced a sugar molecule directly through any sensory modality. My various apparatuses are not equipped to do this. I feel them in bulk as "gritty" or "syrupy", see them as "white" or taste them as "sweet".

I don't experience in my subjective self the brain and nerve activity that is part of the process. All I experience is an end result-- the look, taste, feel, sound and smell.

These perceptions are labeled as whatever they are because they were available to me as an experience to be labeled that could be labeled.

With other species it is apparent through experments that descrimination exists and comparisons can be made in the absence of language. Language is not the determining factor here at all.

There is also evidence that essential patterns in the brain tend to be more alike than different which is something I would expect you to know. In all likelyhood our experiences of what you and I label red, sweet, etc.-- aside from some severe neural or sensory anomaly-- are more alike than unalike on that basis. If we shared the same anamoly, our anamalous experiences would be more mutually alike than they are to the "normals".

The mere stating that there is a perception that could be labeled the same regardless of what it "looks like" is a tacit admission to the possibility that it does have a "look".

So, for a minute let us pretend I do not see "red" and have not the slightest clue of its appearance. Tell me what it looks like. Make me know the experience itself. Next, tell me what ultraviolet-B looks like. Tell me what ultrasonic sounds like. Don't attempt to skirt these under one of *those* people heading as you have before. That's simply casting perjorative language about and an indication of impotence.

You would be on to something there only and *only if* we were actually the same individual person and not separate entities. ...

Even in identical twins raised the same way don't inherently come out into life the one and the same indistinguishable from one another.

You display an acute lack of depth of abstraction. Lock step would mean in every manner with no state distinguishable. In such a case, we are the same person. Twins are an incredibly weak comparison, hardly a comparison at all, especially because the are in contact which precludes lock-stepping.

Cute, but pointless crap spouting that doesn't really appear to help your case in my opinion.

It doesn't hurt it. It's quite fair after many somewhat inflammatory remarks and has actual grounding in reality. Double standard FAIL on your part.

An FYI:
Make no assumption that I'm "science retarded" or anything of that ilk. You aren't saying anything that I haven't mulled over since childhood. You have not expressed an opinion that I did not progress through at one time. I consider your views valid but incomplete. That kind of knowledge plays an important role in my thinking but it is also only a subset of my understanding.

As far as a TOE, do (re)familiarize yourself with Godel's Incompleteness Theorems.
link

I like this one since it also discusses ramifications compactly. One is that a complete physical description will very well leave certain things as undecidable or unproveable. So, as I stated before, there is always "everything" and "everything else". Abuse critique is valid where it is construed to refer to it as "proof of God". All it proves is ultimately certain things could be unanswerable with absolute proof and that there are no ultimate answers that can be proven. A TOE within the domain of forces is likely achievable but certain phenomena that are entirely of the subjective nature lay outside it.

Can someone give me a brief explanation of this video if that is ok? How can something come from nothing

Never mind, found a summary of the video online

reply to post by Maddogkull


Nothing is Something ???

No wait...

This "Nothing" may NOT be as simple as you think ?

Seriously.... consider the following...

It is one of the “Opposites” (Components) of a Geometric Algorithm.

If "Nothing” wasn't “Something” i.e. Nothing.... then you would Not be asking your question.

Yea I know, it’s a tricky one to fully understand.

We can even recognise this nothing, and it can also have size and shape so Nothing can be dimensional as well as being non dimensional.

The Shape of "Nothing" is dictated by the Shape of what "Contains" this Component we call "Nothing".

Another Example of referring to "Nothing"…

“There is Nothing IN there.”

Or “I heard Nothing.”

So you see we can recognise or detect this Component we call “Nothing.”

So if in fact, if “Nothing” doesn’t exist, we would not be able to recognise it or detect it…

So you see in a very strange way, "Nothing" is in Fact "Something" ???

One example of the Existence of "Nothing", and yet it is "Something" ???

The Centre of a Circle, where the theoretical centre has No Size or Shape and thus is Nothing, yet it still exists.
So this is an example of something being both “Nothing” and “Something” at the same time..

The only reason anything exists is because of “Communication”.

The very Universe you are looking at, communicates with us. i.e. we recognise things by their Shape, Position, and Colour.
So this is a form of "Geometric Communication".

Our experience is but a Geometrical based "Story", involving Laws that govern Interactions.

Our history is based on changing Geometric Information.

If you understand programming, you will know that all is based on concepts and involves Data and Instructions, that present the End result. Not forgetting the Communication Media.

It may be that it is a form of Communication, which produces our experiences, and that it is merely this Communication within a Conscious State (Not of the Brain, as the Brain is only the Decoder Encoder).

If this is the case, then all may Not be physical at all, but is only interpreted as being of physical nature, and is only the result of a “Story” i.e. Communication involving Fixed Laws or Rules that govern and portray it to appear to be physical in nature..

If all is only Intelligent Communication, involving Identification and Instructions, in the form of a "Story" or "Program", then certainly All may come from “Nothing” or is Both, “Something” and “Nothing”.
And what manifests this experience may be just a Story.

Whether or Not, all has come from “Nothing”, Awareness, is still required in order for anything to be known or exist.

Another example of "Nothing" being "Something"… if the Centre of anything has No Size or Shape, then everything contains this Nothing.

All exists between 2 ends i.e. between the Centre (Nothing yet Something) and its “Outer”…

In the case of a Disc.. One end is "Nothing" and its other end is it's "Outer".

A Line exists between 2 Ends...

Crazy thing is, the Ends consists of both "Something" and "Nothing", or is Contained in its "Outside" environment.

And between the Ends of the Line and the Environment it is in, is "Nothing".

It is its “Outer” that gives shape, but the “Outer” comes from the “Centre”. For example a Species comes from something Smaller than it’s complete Form.

Even in a Visual example.. If there is an object that is so far away it may not be seen at first, but as you approach it, at some point is will appear from "Nothing" and as you approach it, it will appear to become larger, yet in reality it has not grown in size. You could say that it comes from the Centre of its origin, peraps "Nothing" via a Story involving Communication, between 2 Ends of Awareness or Consciousness or what ever title you attach to it ???

[edit on 25-6-2010 by The Matrix Traveller]