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This is a Test! Are you a moral person? If so, how moral?

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posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 09:41 PM
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reply to post by kinda kurious
 



nah, just thought you'd like the 'Flavor' of TC, did you see vid?

OT's a conservative, btw....

Also Clinton's done some good things since gone....we can learn from him, that's alot from OT you know...?

Watch vid....alright?




posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 09:52 PM
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Thank you everyone for responding.....


Here are the levels of morality from Lawrenc eKolberg, the designer of the OP's question....

Where did you line up?

See:


From a theoretical point of view, it is not important what the participant thinks that Heinz should do. Kohlberg's theory holds that the justification the participant offers is what is significant, the form of their response. Below are some of many examples of possible arguments that belong to the six stages:

Stage one (obedience): Heinz should not steal the medicine because he will consequently be put in prison which will mean he is a bad person. Or: Heinz should steal the medicine because it is only worth $200 and not how much the druggist wanted for it; Heinz had even offered to pay for it and was not stealing anything else.

Stage two (self-interest): Heinz should steal the medicine because he will be much happier if he saves his wife, even if he will have to serve a prison sentence. Or: Heinz should not steal the medicine because prison is an awful place, and he would probably languish over a jail cell more than his wife's death.

Stage three (conformity): Heinz should steal the medicine because his wife expects it; he wants to be a good husband. Or: Heinz should not steal the drug because stealing is bad and he is not a criminal; he tried to do everything he could without breaking the law, you cannot blame him.

Stage four (law-and-order): Heinz should not steal the medicine because the law prohibits stealing, making it illegal. Or: Heinz should steal the drug for his wife but also take the prescribed punishment for the crime as well as paying the druggist what he is owed. Criminals cannot just run around without regard for the law; actions have consequences.

Stage five (human rights): Heinz should steal the medicine because everyone has a right to choose life, regardless of the law. Or: Heinz should not steal the medicine because the scientist has a right to fair compensation. Even if his wife is sick, it does not make his actions right.

Stage six (universal human ethics): Heinz should steal the medicine, because saving a human life is a more fundamental value than the property rights of another person. Or: Heinz should not steal the medicine, because others may need the medicine just as badly, and their lives are equally significant.
en.wikipedia.org...


Stage 1 thru 6?

OT



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
Read the following dilemma..

5) What would the Good Samaritan do?


Thoughts?

OT

Thank you in advance for replying!




[edit on 22-10-2009 by OldThinker]



The good Samaritan would give the drug to save the woman from cancer to Hienz...... simple as that. JMO ~



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:08 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


A moral or immoral action all depends largely on circumstance, and the maximum level of stress the person can endure.



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:11 PM
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reply to post by hhcore
 


clever...

but in reality you ignored the OP's questions, you know...

OT



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:13 PM
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reply to post by SpacePunk
 


Morality is NEVER.........

EXTERNALLY (circumstances) nor INTERNALLY (stress) based...never....

try again friend....ok

OT waitin...



[edit on 22-10-2009 by OldThinker]



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


sirnex, thx for your thoughts friend...


OT



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:34 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 

I love tests! Okay here goes.

1) What would you do?

I would NOT XbuyX the medicine. Edit: Sorry I meant to say "steal". I would NOT steal the medicine. (Nor would I buy it! The whole deal just 'feels' wrong! There's something wrong with the medicine (snake oil).)

I'd see it as a "sign", whether you want to call it divine guidance or intuition is up to you. It would be a personal decision based on my own life experiences.

Furthermore, I'd suspect "snake-oil."

2) Why? Are you justified?

In my own past, if I pushed for something that didn't work easily the first time, it always ended up a mistake.

I would not hold others to my opinion because it's purely personal choice.

3) Isn't stealing a sin? always? maybe not? While the pharmacist was stealing, I don't feel two wrongs make a right.

4) Does LIFE trump everything else? Definitely not.

5) What would the Good Samaritan do? Heck if I know! Ask him! *smirk*

6) What would Martin Luther King do? Martin Luther King plaigarized (sp?) papers in college; so, he was not adverse to a wee bit of indiscretion. Based on this fact, I'd say he would steal the snake oil.

7) Is sin really relative?

Sin is not relative to "man's law".

It's still felony theft and burglary.

If you are asking whether a theft of this nature would violate the 10 commandments ... well Jesus overturned most of them! He said something 'similiar' to this, "If a man (highway bandit?) asks you for your hat, give him your coat as well."

So, yes, stealing the medicine is against the Old Testament but MIGHT not be against the New Testament.



[edit on 22-10-2009 by Trexter Ziam]



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:36 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


What do you want to discuss?

For 5 i came to this conclusion because he is a good Samaritan, i don't think they would openly break the law, they won't be able to justify the action. Remember the old adage that good guys finish last. And well, i'm sure he wouldn't be happy about his situation as well.

And well, MLK is MLK. If his wife needed the same thing, he'd hold a drive or do something capitalizing on his fame to help raise the money.



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:40 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 
Explanation: So, according to the creator of the scenerio's moral yardstick which has 6 incremental measures or stages accorded to it, I would, after self assessing my own post
, line up what I posted in the isolated context of the 1st question that OT asked against that yardstick as a stage 2[self interest] level of morality. Would you concur with my self assesment OT?

Personal Disclosure: I'd be highly interested in what your own answers to this scenerio are? Also, how do you think your answers would measure up according to the same standard as set by the scenerio's creator?

P.S. Some stars for you. ***



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 11:05 PM
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Originally posted by cloakndagger
...... The real guilty person in this whole thing is the greedy person who puts money above life itself. He will be the one paying a spiritual price.


[edit on 22-10-2009 by cloakndagger]


Great point there...I tend to agree!

OT



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by Trexter Ziam
 


I appreciate your well thought thru response!



OT



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 11:10 PM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 


I'd steal it...quietly...and pay him back quietly...if I could get away with both.

OT



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Are we moral canons?

I think we are.

Is human moral good!

By who’s standard is human moral good?

By who's moral standards should we measure our morality of good and bad? Mine, yours or someone Else's thoughts?

As you see it becomes a moral dilemma. Moral is a collective thing within our system. We side with the collective of morals that fits our own moral values. Then we say we have to make sacrifices to keep our moral standard.

A sacrifice is to abuse a moral value to keep another. Like you illustrate with the sick woman.



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by tankthinker
 


tankthinker!!!!

where you been?

school got you busy?

Thx for the great post, my bud!

OT



oh yaaa schools a killer, but mainly ive taken to observing more, though im rarely on the site anymore, im glad ur still kicking.



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 11:43 PM
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1) What would you do?

I would most definitely try and steal the drug. I mean, why not? I love my wife, and the uhh..."druggist" sounds like he's a greedy person anyway.

2) Why? Are you justified?

I mean, I guess. My wife is dying and this medicine could save her life. I have tried bargaining with the dude, and, as I said before, he sounds like he's only in it for the money. He would use the medicine for his own personal gain rather than allow someone the gift of living.

3) Isn't stealing a sin? always? maybe not?

Probably but why would it worry me? I haven't read the bible, and am an agnostic. I'm pretty sure that it's definitely a sin to steal, but that wouldn't deter me. God apparently broke his own rules by killing all or severely punishing those who would oppose him, so if he were to somehow punish me, I'd think that the dude's a hypocrite anyway.

4) Does LIFE trump everything else?

Not necessarily. In this case, though, my wife is in the situation where her life could be saved. I'd probably see her as the most pure and beautiful thing that could ever have an impact in my life, so it's a definite yes.

5) What would the Good Samaritan do?

A good samaritan would probably let the wife die. He'd end up realising he doesn't have enough money and would think that it's fair enough that he can't obtain the cure. He'd much prefer to go home in his minivan, tell the kids the bad news, give them a great big hug and continue drinking non-fat milk with his morning cereal for the rest of his life.

6) What would Martin Luther King do?

I dunno. Probably write a speech about blacks or something. I dunno how that would help in this case.

7) Is sin really relative?

If you're not religious who even cares?



posted on Oct, 23 2009 @ 12:09 AM
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"This is John Galt Speaking" Some great movies about morality.




posted on Oct, 23 2009 @ 12:10 AM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Interesting. I guess that makes me a non-conformist of sorts because I went completely outside the parameters of the test in both sets of answers.

In neither case did I steal but in both cases I would ultimately win. One with clean hands and in the other by a bit of wet-work. Bring on the Kobayashi Maru.



posted on Oct, 23 2009 @ 12:17 AM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 
Explanation: Awsome! How would you rate that against the morallity scale that you yourself provided?

Personal Disclosure: I've had some time to spuriously speculate upon what I, as the good samaritan or in Martin Luther King place, would do and the best I can come up with is that as either of them, both being staunch believers in YHVH, I would pray and have faith that if I have done all that is humanly and morally possible, that God would , as promised, take care of the rest! After all isn't that the key to passing the test as it was applied to Abraham and Isaac? Wasn't Abrahams faith steadfast in the face of the logical consequences of carrying out YHVH's commandment? I would have to deduce the answer to that as yes! Do you concur OT?

Edited to add and clarify....

Wouldn't giving into the temptation to steal the cure [which completely exposes one's victim mentality when dealing with the Devil], directly show God that you don't actually have any real faith at all in God's ability to perform miracles? Wouldn't he judge you more harshly if you don't pray to him for guidance in this issue and get his go ahead in the first place?


Why not pray to God for the same wisdom bestowed upon the extortionist Dr who isn't even offering a garanteed cure! God might just hear and grant such a plea and hey presto and by the power of the holy spirit, one could be undermining the devilish Dr and his exhorbitant cure and also get a healed wife in the process! Calebs attitude in this respect was unshakable and with God on his side he was willing to take on the Nephalim...Upfront and Personally! Moses,Joshua and David also showed and displayed such acts of unshakable faith in the face of overwhelming odds!

[edit on 23-10-2009 by OmegaLogos]
Edited to remove accidental Italicization of whole post! :shk:

[edit on 23-10-2009 by OmegaLogos]



posted on Oct, 23 2009 @ 12:25 AM
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Let's see - just thinking out loud again: First thought that popped into my small mind: do nothing. It's another one of those catch 22. The decider is damned either way. That scenario was an easy way out of the dilemma. Let her die. Live another day.

Stealing (or borrowing): Thou shalt not steal (or borrow) (a Biblical reference).
1. Heinz should NOT have borrowed from anyone or risk going to jail for stealing.
2. The drug dealer should NOT charge too high a price on one's life or risk going to jail, knowing that the drug might have killed the wife.



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