This is a Test! Are you a moral person? If so, how moral?

Read the following dilemma...

The Heinz dilemma is a frequently used example in many ethics and morality classes. One well-known version of the dilemma, used in Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development, is stated as follows:

A woman was near death from a special kind of cancer. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to produce. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $1,000 which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said: "No, I discovered the drug and I'm going to make money from it." So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man's store to steal the drug for his wife.
Should Heinz have broken into the laboratory to steal the drug for his wife? Why or why not?[1]

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

1) What would you do?

2) Why? Are you justified?

3) Isn't stealing a sin? always? maybe not?

4) Does LIFE trump everything else?

5) What would the Good Samaritan do?

6) What would Martin Luther King do?

7) Is sin really relative?

Have you read the Bible, in James 2:25? It says, "In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?"

How was she 'justified'???? By LYING? hmmm???

Thoughts?

OT

Thank you in advance for replying!



[edit on 22-10-2009 by OldThinker]

reply to post by OldThinker


Stealing is never justified in my opinion , however, to save someones life I would do it in a heartbeat. I will worry about the judgement later. Love is a driving force that will make you do things you would not ordinarily do. Because Im honest, I will admit I would do it in a heartbeat. I would however spend the rest of my life trying to repay the person I stold from.

The drug companies steal form the dying all of the time, so in my opinion it's not a crime to steal from then if given the chance or circumstances dictate no other means.

Originally posted by OldThinker


1) What would you do?

2) Why? Are you justified?

3) Isn't stealing a sin? always? maybe not?

4) Does LIFE trump everything else?

5) What would the Good Samaritan do?

6) What would Martin Luther King do?

7) Is sin really relative?

(1) Steal the drug.

(2) To save a life.

(3) Yes it is but is letting somebody die when you have the means to save, murder and is not murder a sin?

(4) In this case yes, because profit is less important then life.

(5) In wich case? a good samaritan would not put profit before life.

(6) Hard to say but I'm leaning to him stealing the drug if a loved one's life depended on it.

(7) No, because if you believe in god's will then the person would die regardless of medicine given that is if it were god's will for them to die.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by alyosha1981]

1) What would you do?


Steal the medicine, no doubt.



2) Why? Are you justified?

Because i would want my wife to live.
Not legally justified and perhaps not "Morally" justified... but in your own world, in what matters to you... you are justified.

The guy is gonna make a lot of money from this drug....so I'm taking it and my wife is gonna live.



3) Isn't stealing a sin? always? maybe not?

Don't really believe in sin.
But some laws/rules have to be broken at certain times.

Like... life or death situations.



4) Does LIFE trump everything else?


Not necessarily... but in this situation it does, yes.



5) What would the Good Samaritan do?


Broke in and stole the drug for the guy.... and then handed himself in for the crime.



6) What would Martin Luther King do?


He's dead... so not a lot.
But were he alive, he would do what any devoted husband would do.... break in and steal that medicine.



7) Is sin really relative?


Extremely.... most things are relative.

reply to post by OldThinker


I love posts like these and it pertains to the ATS community as well. By simply being a regular here, darn near everyone is considered "fringe" by the mainstreamers...sheep!

1) What would you do?
The same thing

2) Why? Are you justified?
To save my wife. Yup and i would make sure to tell everyone i'd do it again too..

3) Isn't stealing a sin? always? maybe not?
Well, i don't believe the bible or what it preaches so..Stealing something can be justified.

4) Does LIFE trump everything else?
To a point.

5) What would the Good Samaritan do?
Nothing but watch the wife die and curse there luck and situation.

6) What would Martin Luther King do?
Hold a fund raiser, or do something else using his fame to generate the money.

7) Is sin really relative?
No, "sin" as we know it is a Christian/Judaic concept (i think i'm right). So i don't believe in anything being a "sin". Right from Wrong is another story however

[edit on 22-10-2009 by cenpuppie]

Like most others, I would steal it, admit to it and pay for it, sell something, whatever...take my punishment.

I have had too much pride in my morality...living by my conscious...must be ever mindful lest I fall flat on my face.

Your story is akin to, would you lie to hide a Jew from Nazi's. The answer is yes.

I think morality is not as black and white as we would like to make it.

Gotta run.

reply to post by OldThinker


1) What would you do? Steal it and beat the Pharmacist.

2) Why? Are you justified? To save my wife. Sure

3) Isn't stealing a sin? always? maybe not? Yes, Yes

4) Does LIFE trump everything else? No

5) What would the Good Samaritan do? He would not steal

6) What would Martin Luther King do? Sleep with my wife.

7) Is sin really relative? In Gods eyes no.. in mans eyes yes

reply to post by OldThinker



Well this a bit of a long one .....eh?

Yes I would break into the druggist to get the cure. I would also leave the thousand dollars and an anonymous IOU for the remainder (Do I know about the druggist costs?).

I would not be justified for stealing but isn't he stealing too. I am a sinner, the druggist is a sinner, but I love her and could not bear to lose her when there is a possible cure within reach. I suppose he has his love also, in this case it sounds like money. I would not care about the cause and effect for me later.

In this matter I have no idea what Martin Luther King would have done. He probably would have stolen it also. A good samaritan....well...... maybe they would allow you to take the medicine but let you know that they would turn you in if you did not finish paying the druggist.

Sin is relative to each and every person. Some consider sin non-existent while other fear it and go to church each day to counteract it.


The other I will have to think about...ie ....James 2:25.

reply to post by OldThinker

1) What would you do?

I would steal the drug.

2) Why? Are you justified?

I would steal it and feel justified for stealing it because the drug is a natural product of the Earth and thus not something that should be patented and exploited simply because someone figured out it could cure an illness. I would also feel justified by the act because the crime is morally superior to the crime of being instrumental to someones death by refusing treatment.

3) Isn't stealing a sin? always? maybe not?

In the same light, is allowing the death of someone else over a matter of money any more right than stealing in order to save a life?

4) Does LIFE trump everything else?

Seeing as that life is sacred and precious I would say yes, any act of saving a life would trump any act viewed as immoral.

5) What would the Good Samaritan do?

I would imagine that if truly good by nature and not just good because of some higher view of what good is, they would have helped save the wife's life.

6) What would Martin Luther King do?

Who cares. What would George Bush Sr. do? What would Abraham Lincoln do? What would Genghis Khan do?

7) Is sin really relative?

There is no such thing as true sin as all views of sin are based on cultural, religious and current societal views and are subject to change and do change regularly.

Originally posted by Magantice
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Stealing is never justified in my opinion , however, to save someones life I would do it in a heartbeat. I will worry about the judgement later. Love is a driving force that will make you do things you would not ordinarily do. Because Im honest, I will admit I would do it in a heartbeat. I would however spend the rest of my life trying to repay the person I stold from.

Magantice, nice to meet you!

Thx for being the first out of the shoot...

OT

The sin vs redemption are weighed on a scale. On one end of the scale you have the sin of theft and on the other end you have the redemption of saving a life. In this case the theft was justified. This is of course on the spiritual level of justice. The person who stole the medicine would not be found guilty in the eyes of G-d. Now that doesn't mean it's the same with the eyes of man. The real guilty person in this whole thing is the greedy person who puts money above life itself. He will be the one paying a spiritual price.


[edit on 22-10-2009 by cloakndagger]

reply to post by alyosha1981




Great response alyosha1981!

So glad you replied friend....

btw, Sorry bout the Rockies...

OT

Is it cold there yet?

reply to post by blupblup



blupblup,

Very perceptive responses!!!

Thx for stopping in...

OT

PS: We've come a long way huh?

I'd steal the drug in a heartbeat for a loved one.

Then, I'd be willing to face the consequences.

I don't care what other people would do .


This to me is a choice between a little wrong and a big wrong. It's a little wrong to steal. It's a big wrong to let someone die that you can help.

I know that two wrongs don't make something right.

Originally posted by OldThinker
1)What would you do?

I would break into the man’s house and take what I needed to save the woman’s life and if Mr greedy got in my way he would wish he had not.

Originally posted by OldThinker
2) Why? Are you justified?

I am justified because the druggist thought that the value of a person’s life hinged on the dirty coin, and when he objectified a human life in that way he had already lost the argument way before I broke into his house to steal his drug.

Originally posted by OldThinker
3) Isn't stealing a sin? always? maybe not?

Stealing is wrong but I do not class theft as sin because I am an atheist and so I am free from what is in my opinion shackles for the mind. I would steal from this man because a life depended on my act of theft – pure and simple!

Originally posted by OldThinker
4) Does LIFE trump everything else?

In this particular scenario this cancer stricken woman’s life trumped because her life is more important than some greed driven plan. In the wider world such a scenarios in regard to the question of “life trumping everything” else would depend on who was about to lose their life and why? It is all relative to the situation you might find yourself in.

Originally posted by OldThinker
5) What would the Good Samaritan do?

A Good Samaritan might not steal but a person who respects life and sees’s life as more important than the dirty buck would steal and that to my mind is the real Good Samaritan.

Originally posted by OldThinker
6) What would Martin Luther King do?

I think he would steal but not before ripping the druggist a new one for putting the value of the woman’s life in balance with the importance of his bank balance.

Originally posted by OldThinker
7) Is sin really relative?

In my world sin is a myth and the only thing that matters to me is I harm no person unless that person wishes to harm me and actually tries to do so. Live and let live.

Life for me is the real importance here and stealing from a person to save a person transcends the fact that the druggist expended much time, effort and finances into his project.

No argument from him or a court of law could sway me from knowing that I did the right thing.

1) What would you do? I would without a doubt steal the medicine.

2) Why? Are you justified? Because I would be saving a life and the justification would be life over a theft.

3) Isn't stealing a sin? always? maybe not? Stealing is a sin, yes it is. I would sin for the one I loved. If I had to sacrifice myself to save a life I will.

4) Does LIFE trump everything else? Good question. I am going with this scenario as a reference and just say YES.

5) What would the Good Samaritan do? Have someone else do it.

6) What would Martin Luther King do? He would do the same.

7) Is sin really relative? Yes but in this situation it does not weigh so heavy. Imagine you are asked to tell a small white lie to a criminal who has a shotgun pointed at your mothers head. The only way he would not shoot her is if you tell him that the moon is made out of used MP3 players, which is obviously not true. What would you do then...I am pretty sure 99 percent of you would lie to him. Bit of an odd analogy but the point gets across.

I think most everyone would steal the medicine as they think it would be worth the moral and legal costs of doing so.

A more important and relevant question is should our government have a role in making sure situations like this do not occur? Is the right for someone to make windfall profits more important than a life or multiple lives as would surely be the case down the road with this druggist?

My answer is that the goverment should be responsible to ensure that commerce and trade is done in the way that is in the best interest of society as a whole. When certian actions threaten the well being of society, the government needs to step in do something about it. Otherwise why do we even need government if it is just going to be each man for himself? Let's just fight it out in the streets.

It also begs to the inconsistencies of our system. The druggist is using the each man for himself mentality but when the husband takes the drug the he is also using that philosophy, but now all of a sudden the druggist has an issue with it.

Don't get me wrong, the druggist needs to be rewarded adequately for his cure, but it can't be too such a degree that society as a whole is worse off.

1) What would you do?
If not able to get the drug through the druggist directly, go over his head.

2) Why? Are you justified?
Because HE IS WRONG TO OVERCHARGE.

3) Isn't stealing a sin? always? maybe not?
It is the druggist stealing- not I.

4) Does LIFE trump everything else?
In some cases, yes.

5) What would the Good Samaritan do?
Go public and expose the druggist as the vile person he is.

6) What would Martin Luther King do?
Irrelevant to the question as much as what would Jesus or anyone else do.

7) Is sin really relative?
Not in my world. My code of ethics, morals, values, come from within me and my personal experience. The word "sin" has no meaning to me.

Originally posted by cenpuppie
..........
5) What would the Good Samaritan do?
Nothing but watch the wife die and curse there luck and situation.

6) What would Martin Luther King do?
Hold a fund raiser, or do something else using his fame to generate the money.
.......

Great responses for most of them, thank you for your time!

May we discuss 5 and 6 ok?

OT

reply to post by liveandlearn


liveandlearn,

Great connection/linkage to WW2!

Thx my good friend...

btw, you are TOOOOOOOOO busy....

You must be a manager....

OT