Police: Man ran down 'too Westernized' daughter, page 6

reply to post by rapunzel222

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Good post, I agree.

Make the wearing of burqa's and head scarves that the women are forced to wear illegal, because they are being used as tools of oppression and religious intolerance.

The U.S. needs to take action now to deal with religious extremists who advocate this abuse religious beliefs.

reply to post by Finn1916

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Explanation: No. Sorry I am unable currently to agree with it being an "attempted honour killing", as until the full story comes out, I'm not willing to go that far! We are all still just speculating on what the police report claims was his motive, as was allegedly accurately garnered from friends and family! If it makes it to court and the prosecutor can validly show that his motive was motivated by her becoming "too westernized" for his liking , then yes I will fully agree that it was a clear case of face/honour saving using the vilest methods against his daughter and her fellow female companion and against the laws of the country they reside in [the U.S.]. Either way I hope the perpetrator [who ever they are] is brought to justice and feels the full weight and extent of the law applied to them!

Personal Disclosure: I'm totally disgusted by who ever perpetrated this crime! I'll be even more disgusted if it gets blown out of all proportion! My best wishes for a speedy and full recovery go out to both the victims!

reply to post by hangedman13

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Explanation: I fully agree that most of the time that the U.N is a toothless tiger! But that does not invalidate the legal obligations that those countries signed up for and ratified.[including mine, Australia, which was hugely involved in wheat for oil scam that severely dented both the AWB (Australian Wheat Board) and Australia as a whole! (the previous incumbent coalition {liberals/nationals} under John Howard, were deeply implicated).]

Otherwise, if it truely is defunct as a legally binding contract, then why should either Israel or Iran [or any other country for that matter] abide by it and consequently the IAEC and or the NPT [or any other U.N based treaties], both of which are based upon the Authority of the U.N. and its Charter via its signature countries which have both signed and ratified it!

Personal Disclosure: IMO Either its a binding contractual document [the U.N. charter] with legal implications and real outcomes for all who are signed up to it by proxy of previous generations negotiations. Or it's a propaganda circus scam to distract us from the real issues i.e why am I not considered a sovereign being and why are we not yet residing in a leaderless democracy run by weekly referendums?

P.S. This governance by proxy [governements,parents,TPTB etc] is the real problem and an even bigger real problem is the sheeple's victim mentality that promotes and supports the former problem!

reply to post by rapunzel222

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And also...
reply to post by poet1b

Explanation: Banning clothes isn't going to solve the problem! Relentlessly combating the scumbags who caused the problem in the 1st place and or who continue to support its continuance would be far more effective!

Personal Disclosure: I was feeling quite bigoted one day [cronulla riots some time back] and I was contemplating the attitude that promotes the enforced wearing of this type of full covering attire and my filthy crass male white western mind came up with a compromise that we can all be happy with. 100% transparent [i.e. see thru] Organza fabric burkas and hajibs. The prudish religous zealots should be all cool..after all it is full head to toe covering! The women should be happy as organza comes in many colours and is quite stylish! And finally the rest of us can enjoy these womens beautiful faces and gorgeous curves and bumps! I was raised on "I Dream of Genie!" and I'm still waiting for that kind of fashion to take off!

P.S. I have a saying that goes "Modest Women Make Me Horny!". Lets see how the prudes deal with that!

reply to post by OmegaLogos

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Neither the burqa nor the head scarf is clothing, they are designed to be worn as submission, and a great many women complain about having to wear them, which is why they should be made illegal. In Europe, the problem has gotten so bad that non-muslim women wind up carrying around head scarves to put on when they have to go into areas which are predominately Muslim to avoid being harassed, and that is plain wrong.

I don't find anything at all wrong about finding women attractive, we are wired for that, it is natural, BUT, it is wrong to stare at peoples wives and daughters, I don't do that. If a woman dresses provocatively to attract attention, I will give her a smile is she seems to want that, but not stare. If I want to look at women, I go someplace to pay to stare at them, where I can look to my hearts content, but not in public. Personally, I prefer a woman who dresses comfortable and causally in public, not provocatively.

reply to post by poet1b

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Explanation: Are you aware that many non muslim women already willing wear these items of clothing [yes they are clothes and I'll prove that further below] and would therefor have to suffer the consequences of such a ban! Seems like robbing Peter to pay Paul is all the rage nowadays when we should all be fining and charging the Devil? [metaphorically..I'm not currently a Christian of any denomination but I was a JW many years ago! [disfellowed]]

Here is a [wiki] Link on Headscarfs.

There are Orthodox Jewish women who wear headscarfs.
There are female cancer victims who wear headscarfs.
There are Christian and non-Christian nun's who were habits and wimples.
There are European Fashion designers and models who sell and promote the wearing of headscarfs.

Are you really so willing to disenfrachise all these people, just so you can attack the real perpetrators by proxy?
Also please consider the consequences for the women who currently reside in such apparently uncontrolled and unpoliced area's once their only ability to mingle outside is removed! Would not these male power over merchants end up just confining "their" women to the households forever more in an effort to retain and maintain control regardles of what the local dress code may be?

As for headscarfs and Hajibs not being clothing, I present this evidence for scrutiny....

"Headscarves and veils used for Muslim religious dress include:" [From above linked wiki source on headscarfs...Note Bold and Underlined edit is my emphasis only]

And from Hajib [wiki] Source....

"Dress code required by hijab
Traditionally, Muslims have recognized many different forms of clothing as satisfying the demands of hijab"

Furthermore...

Dress

Dress Code

Scarfs

Hajib

Clothes

Note all definitions are sourced from and linked to www.thefreedictionary.com... website.

Personal Disclosure: As for NOT staring I fully agree with you and I remind everybody that I did caveat my rant with the exposure of my bigoted bias concerning my simple but crass solution!

reply to post by OmegaLogos

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When it comes to liberty verses religious rights, then yes, liberty trumps religion, and religious articles used to oppress peoples rights should be made illegal.

Head scarfs designed for fashion should be removed indoors, in all places of business.

I think that the men who try to force their women to stay inside all of the time will find that this will be extremely difficult to do. It should also be illegal to keep women locked up, unless they have some particular medical condition that prevents them from going outdoors.

One of the ways of dealing with this would be to require that all people on welfare and government aid have to come into the office on a regular basis, and that the women be interviewed separately from the men.

Just because a small number of women desire such outfits, doesn't mean that all women should be subject to oppression, which is what is going on. The minority should not be given control over the majority.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by OmegaLogos

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When it comes to liberty verses religious rights, then yes, liberty trumps religion, and religious articles used to oppress peoples rights should be made illegal.

Head scarfs designed for fashion should be removed indoors, in all places of business.

I think that the men who try to force their women to stay inside all of the time will find that this will be extremely difficult to do. It should also be illegal to keep women locked up, unless they have some particular medical condition that prevents them from going outdoors.

One of the ways of dealing with this would be to require that all people on welfare and government aid have to come into the office on a regular basis, and that the women be interviewed separately from the men.

Just because a small number of women desire such outfits, doesn't mean that all women should be subject to oppression, which is what is going on. The minority should not be given control over the majority.

Let's wish you don't become the President of America one day lol. Have you heard of religious freedom? If a women is forced to do what ever, it is illegal under the law, she can go to the right place to sort out her issues. It is as simple as that, you are making it ten times more complicated by adding more restrictions, reducing freedom, and at the same time supporting freedom. WOW what a logic you got there poet.

Me and you had a long long discussion once, remember Ownification

I'm back

reply to post by oozyism

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Why did you change your name?

Yes, we have had several discussions on the topic, where you continue to insist that a minority should be allowed to impose its will on the majority.

Islam does not care for freedom of religion. Islam seeks to impose its will on everyone, and the burqa and the head scarf is one of the tools used to impose its will.

When something like the burqa and the head scarf are used to abuse others, as is the situation, it should be made illegal.

Freedom of religion does not give someone the right to force their religion down other peoples throats, as you would like to claim.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by oozyism

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Why did you change your name?

Got banned for protesting against post removal...

Yes, we have had several discussions on the topic, where you continue to insist that a minority should be allowed to impose its will on the majority.

I have to find those posts for you later, I will make sure I do because I don't remember making such statements, I'm neither the supporter of majority nor the minority. They both can be wrong equally.

Islam does not care for freedom of religion. Islam seeks to impose its will on everyone, and the burqa and the head scarf is one of the tools used to impose its will.

I don't think the discussion is about what you think Islam seeks to impose, that is your personal view, there are thousands of interpretation on what Islam seeks to impose.

I don't know of Islam which preaches forced burqa or Islam which seeks to impose its will on everyone. What I know of is culture.. It is not Islam which tell its followers to force burqa but cultural dominance.

When something like the burqa and the head scarf are used to abuse others, as is the situation, it should be made illegal.

lol you can use a rugby ball to abuse someone hence shove up someone's anal if you know what I mean, that doesn't mean it should be illegal. Sorry for putting it forward in a rude manner, but it just has to be that way for the argument to get around.

Freedom of religion does not give someone the right to force their religion down other peoples throats, as you would like to claim.

Nope never claimed that, not even Al-Qaeda claims that. Muslims don't like others to shove their religion down their throats, and they also believe the opposite.

We have a saying in my country, "want for others what you want for yourself". I don't know of any Muslim who doesn't agree with this statement.

Think again

ooz

[edit on 28-10-2009 by oozyism]

reply to post by oozyism

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Hey, I myself have protested post removals, but not to the point where I have been banned.

I don't think the discussion is about what you think Islam seeks to impose, that is your personal view,

Who are you to dictate what the discussion is about?

What everyone on this whole web site does continuously, is post their personal views. How do you not get this?

What I have observed of your posting, and many others like you who come here to defend Islam, is that you seem to think you have a right to tell other people how they should think.

Hmm, what does that indicate?

Vast numbers of things can be used as a weapon, but that is not what I am talking about.

The burqa and the head scarf are being used as tools of oppression, that is clear, and anyone who knows anyone who is a Muslim finds this out quickly.

What I want is liberty, and that is what I want for others. This pursuit has paid off very well for those of us in westernized cultures. Women who are forced to wear the burqa and the head scarf have their liberty taken away from them. Herein lies the dilemma.

This woman in the story which this thread is about was killed by her own father because she chose not to be constricted by things like a burqa or a head scarf.

She chose freedom of religion, and for that her father killed her.

Originally posted by JJay55

Wrong. Yes, this was an attempt at honor killing.

Boring.. honor killing is everywhere, criminals do it, criminals get punished for it. As simple as that.

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Wrong, there are not thousands of interpretations on what Islam seeks to impose.

Your interpretation of Islam is different than mine, and mine is different than yours. That is 2 different interpretations already, now you do the maths, there are almost 2 billion Muslim in this world.

Wrong, Islam and culture is one, just as Islam and government is one.

You're going to have to prove that, since you think you know a lot about Islam, go to the Islamic scripture 'Quran' and find a verse which tells its followers to follow culture. What I will do is find a verse which states the opposite:

2:170 (Asad) But when they are told, "Follow what God has bestowed from on high," some answer, "Nay, we shall follow [only] that which we found our forefathers believing in and doing." Why, even if their forefathers did not use their reason at all, and were devoid of all guidance?

www.islamicity.com...

Wrong, Islam does intend to shove their religion down your throat, it's a duty of all muslims.

What do you mean by "shove their religion down your throat"? It could be accomplished in two ways, through force, and through speech. Where are you floating right now, along which lines?

Don't know where you learned about Islam but your views are way off.
This act by an Iraqi father to kill his daughter because of westernization follows the same theology that is encouraged by the Koran in paternal hierarchy of Islam. Further it is fard ayn and the duty of all muslims to follow this theology.

Once again you hold the burden of proof for making such an accusation in regards to Quran, you have to bring me the verses, I'm interested in learning.

Many westerners think that Islam is just like Christianity but from a different part of the world. This is a dangerous assumption and one that lead to 911 attack on American soil. Please become educated about Islam before circulating more myths.

Irrelevant. We still don't know who was behind the 9/11 attacks, don't jump to conclusions too fast.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by oozyism

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Hey, I myself have protested post removals, but not to the point where I have been banned.

Depends on what you are protesting against. I can protest in America against Islam, I will definitely be welcomed, but if I protest against Democracy I will meet resistance, not just from the people but also from the Government. But that is a whole different discussion.

Who are you to dictate what the discussion is about?

Ahh what is the discussion about? If you are going to jump in to 10 different subjects then we will be discussing 10 different subject at once. So should the discussion be more focused don't you think? I thought that would be common sense.

What everyone on this whole web site does continuously, is post their personal views. How do you not get this?


What I have observed of your posting, and many others like you who come here to defend Islam, is that you seem to think you have a right to tell other people how they should think.

Hmm, what does that indicate?

I always loved the way you debate, and still loving it
See how you are over exaggerating one line of comment? What does that indicate?

Vast numbers of things can be used as a weapon, but that is not what I am talking about.

Yes finally back to the topic we were discussing, hallelujah

As a weapon? No not as a weapon, you are twisting it now lol. Vast number of things can be used to oppress people, marriage included. Let's ban marriage people. From top of my head I can give you many examples, like let's say Internet, it can be used to oppress people. Umm what else can we use to oppress people? Ahh money can be used to oppress people, let's ban money.

The burqa and the head scarf are being used as tools of oppression, that is clear, and anyone who knows anyone who is a Muslim finds this out quickly.

Once again

marriage included. Let's ban marriage people. From top of my head I can give you many examples, like let's say Internet, it can be used to oppress people. Umm what else can we use to oppress people? Ahh money can be used to oppress people, let's ban money.

What I want is liberty, and that is what I want for others. This pursuit has paid off very well for those of us in westernized cultures. Women who are forced to wear the burqa and the head scarf have their liberty taken away from them. Herein lies the dilemma.

Taken someone's right to wear a burqah is no different than taken someone's right to wear a miniskirt I very much see the dilemma in that.

This woman in the story which this thread is about was killed by her own father because she chose not to be constricted by things like a burqa or a head scarf.

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People are killed for thousands of different reasons, hate has much to do with it. I saw over a million Iraqis die, due to hate. Hate should be concentrated on not someone's freedom of expression don't you think?

She chose freedom of religion, and for that her father killed her.

No her father chose to kill her due to hate, if her father didn't hate her she wouldn't be dead right now. I can see hate bursting out through different actions, I wouldn't be surprised if I was driven over if I was burning an American flag in front of a patriot.

[edit on 29-10-2009 by oozyism]

reply to post by oozyism

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A father kills his daughter because he could not control her, that is the subject.

The burqa and the head scarf are used by Muslim men to control Muslim women, so the topic is on subject.

Yeah, you can control someone through marriage, which is why laws have been written to stop such behavior. This is why we have divorce courts, restraining orders, all that sort of stuff. Laws against the burqa and headscarfs would fit nicely in that group.

I don't know what you mean by controlling people through the internet. I guess that could be twisted enough to create such problems.

Glad you like my style, you have some pretty good approaches yourself. What does my taking one little comment and holding it up to the spotlight do? It identifies a critical piece of information.

Beating your daughter is bad, these extreme religions get people to do a lot of wacky things. However, this Mormon guy seems like he has far more problems than his religion.

The story about the guy who catches an 18 year old man having sex with his 16 year old daughter, in his own house, and who then tries to shoot him in the balls, now that is funny. Under the circumstances, I could relate. But I think that would be a good time to pull out the taser.

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