Of Flying Dragons and Metallic Discs

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posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 06:30 AM
Most of this information has not been published before - anywhere. It is the result of the authors own research.

This is Part 2 of a Series. Please read Part 1 before reading this as it puts the following information into Context.

Flying Dragons: Vehicles of the Gods?

After "sky-gods" the second most prominent ingredient of ancient myth are Dragons, which also feature in every part of the world and most frequently in ancient China.

This section proposes that the Dragons of Mythology are actually aircraft or spaceships and that our ideas of the red-eyed, fire-breathing fantasy-serpents are misinterpretations and distortions that have developed over time. As odd as this idea may sound at first, it becomes more likely when we look at the original descriptions and behaviour of Dragons and find that they were round flying metallic objects that spit fire rather than menacing monsters. Metallic because mythological accounts describe them as golden, silver, bronze, copper, “shiny”. They are also described as glowing in the dark. As flying, landing and taking off again. And even as going underwater, and transporting various Beings (“Gods”) in their “bellies” and as those “Gods” landing with them and walking around. Spitting Fire? Yes. Imagine on of our ancestors seeing one of our jet-planes take off. How would he describe it? Probably with “it roars like thunder and spits fire”.

Consulting the Internet-Encyclopedia on Dragons I found this Definition:

The dragon is a legendary creature with serpentine or otherwise reptilian traits that features in the myths of many cultures. The two most familiar interpretations of dragons are European dragons, derived from various European folk traditions, and the unrelated Oriental dragons, derived from the Chinese dragon ("long"). (3)

This seemingly simple Definition alone contains several problems. Why, for example, is the Chinese Dragon "unrelated"“ to the European Dragon? This very item echoes the attitude of mainstream science that “Serpent Myths have no common roots”. But why not? Who says so? We know that flying serpents and dragons feature in every ancient culture. Only to name a few:

Apophis was the giant serpent of ancient Egypt. Azazel is the biblical Dragon. In Avestan Mythology the serpent is called Azhi Dahaka. Mythical pre-dynastic emperors of ancient China are called “Dragon Kings””. English folklore refers to Dragons ruling the earth in very ancient times. Gorynych is the most famous ancient Russian Dragon. In Greek Mythology we have Hydra, a “Dragon-Like Being”. In Hebrew Scriptures the Dragon reigning in the waters is called Leviathan. The Aztec Mythology of Ancient America has a flying serpent called Quetzalcoatl. Japenese Mythology has so many ancient Dragons they’d be too numerous to list here. Hungarian Mythology calls the Dragon Sarkany. Tiamat and Apsu from Babylonian Mythology are often considered to be Reptilian. The ancient Germanic Dragon is the Lindwurm. In Slavic Mythology Zmey Gorynych is the winged serpent that spits fire. The Aborigines have their Rainbow Serpents.

The list of Serpents from every culture and country goes into the thousands, yet conventional “wisdom” maintains that they are unrelated and fictitious. Carl Sagan for example, one of the most popular advocates of natural sciences in the 20th Century had this to say in his book “Dragons of Eden” (1977):

“The Myth of Dragons arose from the innate fear of reptiles that we share with other mammals”

This sentence displays a certain amount of arrogance in that it wipes thousands and thousands of pages of ancient tradition away as meaningless.

Did Dragons originally look like discs?

I made an odd discovery while looking into the topic. And that is, that according to some Chinese Academics, “Dragons” were originally not depicted as stylized snakes but as coil-shaped or disc-shaped.

One such early form was the pig dragon. It is a coiled, elongated creature with a head resembling a boar. The character for "dragon" in the earliest Chinese writing has a similar coiled form, as do later jade dragon amulets from the Shang period. (3)

According to this view, the predecessors of the Dragon are called Zhulong or “Pig-Dragon” which seems like a rather unfortunate label in my opinion because it appears to be based on our own modern-day prejudice of them being “Dragons” in the first place. According to the Chinese this “coil shape later opened-up to become the shape of a snake”. This “Dragon” is shown in thousands of ancient artefacts and is sold in our times as a jade embellishment. This is a jade artefact showing such a “Pig-Dragon”:

According to conventional wisdom...

...“The character for "dragon" in the earliest Chinese writing has a similar coiled form” and “Early pig dragons are thick and stubby; later examples have more graceful, snakelike bodies”. (1)

So the image of a coiled or disc-like object transformed into a “more graceful snakelike body” over time? Well wouldn’t that be interesting! It would mean that the flying Dragon originally appeared as a flying Disc! Here are more examples (9) of the ancient artefact of the Zhulong as the pig-dragon is called in Chinese, the first one being dated to 4000 BCE:

What is most amazing about these original depictions of “Dragons” is that they have nothing to do with what we were conditioned to believe in Disney-esque movies, games and cartoons. Imagine them flying vertically for a moment. What do you see?

When I confront Skeptics with the notion of Dragons as misinterpreted flying saucers they chuckle and scoff: “Those are fictitious myths. Serpent myths were a psychological reaction to our fear of snakes”. Such comments are ignorant of the fact that the rendering as snakes seems to have come later.

Apart from “Pig Dragon” there is another Definition for the word Zhulong, which seems to fit much better to the idea of aircraft:

The keyword in the names Zhuyin and Zhulong is zhu, "torch; candle; shine upon; illuminate; light up" . (2)

As I’m not familiar enough with the Chinese language it remains a mystery to me how what may have originally been called “Shining Dragon” turned into “Pig-Dragon”.

And when did those coiled metallic shining discs become green, red-eyed, fire-breathing monsters? Even the western origins of the word point to something different:

From Greek δράκων (drakōn), "a serpent of huge size, a python, a dragon" and that from δρακεῖν (drakein) aorist infinitive active of the verb δέρκομαι (derkomai) "That which flashes or gleams”". (4)

That which flashes or gleams?. That is quite consistent with the original Chinese sources. It is also more consistent with descriptions of the Dragons being vehicles of the Gods rather than the Gods themselves. The writings of the Hindu Mahabarata also often refer to Nagas (flying serpents) not as Gods themselves but as the Gods “riding” on them. But why do ancient cultures universally use reptilian creatures to describe what they saw? Is it because the flying craft were built to look reptilian? Is it because the pilots were of a reptilian race? Or is that the image those ancient Lords projected in order to deceive or entertain? I cant answer these question with any certainty. But in this context it is interesting to look at the ancient Chinese seal script form for “Dragon”:

Nowadays this character is pronounced long in Mandarin Chinese and translated to “Dragon” in English. The modern character has meanwhile changed to 龍. Looking at the original character for „Dragon“ though it may just as well be some human or humanoid being attached to some vaguely aerodynamic device. Automatic associations to snake-monsters do not come up. Those “scales” on the side could just as easily be jet-nozzles. Another interesting Encyclopedia entry:

Upon his head he has a thing like a broad eminence (a big lump), called [chimu] (尺木). If a dragon has no [chimu], he cannot ascend to the sky. (5)

The reason this caught my attention is not only because it seems to indicate some kind of device or pilot being necessary for flight. The word “Chimu” is also the exact name of a people said to have founded an ancient Kingdom in Peru (The Kingdom of Chimor). The Chimu of Peru, are said to be descendants of Dragons (a main temple of theirs being called “Huaca El Dragon”) and their capital city was called Chan Chan, which actually sounds rather Chinese. In researching this subject it does pay off to pay attention to names, words and their meaning.

Lets see what other interesting information we can glean from records that are widely available in public.

It can fly among the clouds or hide in water (according to the Guanzi). It can form clouds, can turn into water or fire, can become invisible or glow in the dark (according to the Shuowen Jiezi). At the end of his reign, the first legendary Emperor Huang Di was said to have ascended to Heaven with his Dragon. Since the Chinese consider Huang Di as their ancestor, they sometimes refer to themselves as "the descendants of the dragon". This legend also contributed towards the use of the Chinese dragon as a symbol of imperial power.(5)

The Chinese knew many different types of “Dragons”, and the descriptions thereof tend to resemble a fleet of aircraft rather than a group of fantasy-figures. Lets look at only a few of the hundreds of “longs”

• Tialong: Literally “Sky Dragon” or “Star Dragon”, a Dragon that pulls chariots of the Gods and guards places in the sky.
• Shenlong: Literally “God Dragon”.
• Fucalong: Literally “Hidden Treasure Dragon”, associated with flying into Volcanoes and Underground to hide treasures.
• Dilong: Literally “Earth Dragon” (as opposed to “Sky Dragon”), also associated with entering rivers, lakes and seas.
• Yinglong: Literally “Communicating or Responding Dragon”
• Panlong: Coiled Dragon
• Jialong: Scaled Dragon
• Huanglong: “Yellow Dragon”, the vehicle of the Emperor
• Feilong: Literally “Flying Dragon”, associated with flying in the sky in through the Clouds.
• Qinglong: Literally “Azure Dragon” associated with certain “mythological creatures”.
• Qilong: A Dragon sometimes horned, sometimes not horned.
• Longwang: Literally “Dragon Kings”
• Hong: Literally “Rainbow Serpent”
• Teng: A flying Dragon without legs

There are many other types, too numerous to count. Thinking that all of this comes from “peoples inherent fear of snakes” is a bit of a stretch, no? It seems that all this talk of Dragons throughout the world is based on an ancient reality, long forgotten. The original meanings of the words were merely stylized and mythologized.

Other Asian Dragon Myths

For comparative measure, lets take a short look at sanskrit literature. From the Mahabarata:

In the Mahabarata the enemy of the Nagas (flying serpents, Dragons) is a “gigantic bird” named Garuda. I put “gigantic bird” in quotes, because just like the Nagas are not literally snakes, Garuda is not literally a bird. Garuda is a Deva (Demi-God) who uses a “gigantic bird” as his flying vehicle. Other accounts of Garuda describe say that he himself is “half Eagle, half Human”. He is also said to be of violent force, speed and martial skill. Garuda is associated with the star Constellation Aquila (The Latin name for Eagle). The star constellation was associated with Vulture Volans (flying Vultures) by the ancient Romans. This is interesting because Buddhist Tradition also has their own Garuda which they describe as an “extremely predatory giant bird”. Buddhist Mythology also says Garuda is “well-winged” or has “speedy wings”.

“As a bird” Garuda is said to have a golden body. When he flies he is so big that he “blocks out the sun”. Although he is said to be the enemy of the serpents, his mothers sister is said to be “The Mother of Serpents”. One day his mother, Vinata lost a foolish bet or game to her sister (the serpent) and became enslaved to her. Garuda wished to release his mother from slavery, approached the serpents and asked them how he could buy her freedom. They told him he’d have to go to into the “Ocean of Milk” (as the story involves Garuda flying to the stars, could it be that this was the ancients term for “Milky Way”?) and bring them amrita, “elixir of immortality”. Amrita at that time was said to be in the possession of other Gods who guarded it jealously. They had “ringed the elixir with a massive blazing ring of light that covered the sky” and had “blocked the way to it with a fierce mechanical contraption of sharp rotating blades”. Despite these precautions Garuda travelled to the “abode of the Gods in the sky” to steal their treasure. He was met by Gods in full battle-array. Garuda defeated their army and “scattered them in all directions”. He then extinguished the “Ring of Fire” with some type of water and passed through the rotating blades by reducing his size. He then returned to the serpents with the elixir (and later conspired to regain possession of it).

Only this short trip to Vedic literature shows that the ancients of India knew how to discern between normal birds and snakes and those vehicles piloted by the “Gods”. Vedic literature is also full of descriptions of mechanical devices and machinery. It seems that here the Information was passed down with less filtering than elsewhere.

For the longest time Dragons were worshipped as holy in China. They are still revered and it is considered a crime to treat depictions of Dragons disrespectfully. Western Science has placed the entire Mythology into “spiritual” realms with no connection to or bearing on our physical reality. However, the Dragons or Pilots/Gods of the Dragons respectively, are described as having entirely human traits and dealing with everyday life. According to Chinese Mythology they…

• Mated with Humans and produced offspring (“Descendants of the Dragon”)
• Dragons can support heavy weights
• They like music and literature
• They can fly very fast
• They can slaughter their enemies
• Dragons themselves can be very loud and noisy (6,7)

In Vedic literature, the enemy of the serpent is the Eagle. In Chinese Mythology the serpents greatest adversary is the Tiger – the flying Tiger to be more precise. The Tiger on which various Gods, Half-Gods and Humans flew to be even more precise. Guru Rinpoche was said to be flying around Asia rescuing various areas from serpents and demons and spreading Buddhism throughout the Himalayas. This is noteworthy because there are several world religions that are said to have been founded in order to battle the serpent – Christianity being one of them.

Moving forward lets look at some of the Dragon Mythology of the countries surrounding China. It is safe to assume that their Mythologies have similar origins and may contain a few more clues.

In Bhutan the word for “Thunder Dragon” is Druk, which is interestingly enough more related to our word for it than the Chinese “long”. In their own language Bhutan is called Druk Yul, “Land of the Dragon” and their leaders are called Druk Gyalpo, Dragon Kings. The reason it is called “Thunder Dragon” is because thunder is “the voice of the Dragon roaring”.

In Japan the most ancient word for Dragon is Tatsu (which reminds me of an ancient Germanic word for Dragon “Tatzel-wurm”). Another word is ryū. In ancient Japan Dragons also fly but more often they are described as descending into water. The first Emperor of Japan, the Half-God Jimmu is said to descend from Toyotama-hime, a goddess who was married to the Dragon-God Ryūjin. So here we have yet another “founder of a country” who is descendant from “Dragons”. Japanese Mythology agrees that the Dragon is in conflict with the Tiger. The Tatsu is often described as being able to either shapeshift or disappear.

Korean Dragons are also able to fly but, just like Japanese Dragons, are often described as ascending into and dwelling in the Oceans. Possibly Dragons are “flying creatures” in China because the landmass of China does not have many oceans to descend into, whereas Japan and Korea are surrounded by waters. More often than in other countries, Korea features Dragons speaking and communicating – both with each other and the surface dwelling humans. Another interesting difference with Korean Dragons is that they are often shown to carry an Orb known as Yuh-Ji-Joo. It was said that whoever owned this Orb was able to “create at will”. This is reminiscent of the wish-fulfilling Cintamani Pearl of Hindu literature.

Some external Sources used for Section 1:

(1) wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_dragon
(2) wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuyin_(mythology)
(3) hwikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon
(4) wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon
(5) wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon
(6) Lihui Yang / Handbook of Chinese Mythology
(7) Keith G. Stevens / Chinese Mythological Gods
(8) wikipedia.org/wiki/Garuda
(9) baiyu-quietmuse.blogspot.com/

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Skyfloating]

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 06:31 AM
Of Ancient Discs and Lost Civilizations

The Bi or Pi Disc 璧 is a circular artefact from ancient China. Its existence can be dated back to at least 4000 B.C. The oldest Pi-Discs were mostly made of Jade (later discs are also made of glass). A few samples:

Incised on both sides with stylized birds and dragon heads.
Two inner and one of the edges are banded with a twisted rope pattern.
Probably Late Eastern Zhou Dynasty (circa 770-221 B. C. E.)

Ca. 3100 B.C., found in a Neolithic tomb

A Neolithic artefact on which the green colouring is hardly visible anymore due to calcification.

This 3000 year old Bi-Disc has an inscription by an 18th Century Emperor who wrongly identifies it as a cup holder.

The word “bi” is translated as “heaven” or “sky” which gives us the interesting term Sky Disc. Original Bi-Discs are undecorated and plain. Later ones tended to add shapes, colours and images to them. We are reminded of the “pig-dragon” which was also somewhat circular and also began plain and evolved to something more intricate over time. Some are also reminded of the ancient Egyptian “sun-disc” which was the vehicle of various Gods.

My interest in the sky discs was sparked by the great variety of expert opinion on their origin and purpose. Some explain them to be symbols of the ruling elite because it was members of the ruling class that were buried with the objects and because it was declared the imperial seal of China symbolizing the receipt of “the mandate of the heavens”. Others say they represent the solar system or the Universe and are a metaphysical symbol of oneness. Others explain them as tools of divination used by shamans. I tend to think they may be all of the above and more. The most accepted theory states that they were ancient symbols of the sky. But why would the sky be shown as a disc…unless of course they refer not to the sky but to those godly devices flying in the sky…

A mythological description that really caught my attention was that they were originally “devices for communicating with the heavens”:

Bi discs were often considered to be “the Ear of Heaven”, and sometimes the hole in the disc was placed in front of the mouth so that the dead could speak to their ancestors. (1,3)

Such accounts are the origin of the idea that they are shamanic divination tools. The question that arises so many times in these studies is whether technological items were “spiritualized” so that a simple walkie-talkie or phone with which to call up the Gods became a “mystical divination tool to commune with the dead”.
What is known is that late Neolithic cultures buried the discs beside the dead because the discs were long associated with ascending to the sky. Placing them beside the dead was somehow believed to support their ascension – but why? Those buried with the disc were usually of high social status – hence the theory that only the elite handled them. This seems to be connected to the belief that only Kings, Rulers and Emperors “ascend to the sky”. And that belief seems to be based on the older fact that the kings themselves were “from the sky”.

Interestingly the practice of burying the dead with “ascension discs” is shared with some cultures of Mesoamerica, adding to the theory of ancient contact between China and the Americas (4). Another reason they are associated with the ruling elite and the sky is because Jade has always been connected to people of rank and royalty. There was a time in China when Jade was considered more valuable than silver or gold. (1). It was called “the stone of the heavens” and all types of mystical qualities were attributed to it. (1).

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 06:31 AM
The Dropa Stones Controversy

Much of the information on “ancient astronauts” uncovered here has never made it to the public. A story that that was widely circulated in literature on UFOs and Mysteries for decades and also made it to worldwide tabloids is that of the “Dropa Stones” and “Dropa People” who were allegedly a race of dwarf-sized extraterrestrials who crash landed in Tibet around 10 000 B.C. I first encountered this story in the book “Return to the Stars” (1970) by Erich von Daniken. And I later dismissed the entire story as a hoax.

Gordon Creighton, fluent in Mandarin and Russian, and attaché to the British Embassy in Beijing, and editor of Flying Saucer Review, investigated the Dropa story thoroughly and found it to be complete fiction.(6)

This was one of the instances I trusted the judgement of Skeptics because none of the stories aspects could be verified in any way. Or so I believed. Looking at the subject of ancient discs in general I re-examined the case and discovered that the tale of the Dropa stones may be fiction but that it cannot be completefiction. For those who are not familiar with the story yet, we will review some of it as it was told in the Daniken books of the early 70s.

According to Daniken, the story was relayed to him by the once popular science-fiction author Alexander Kazantsev. Kazantsev later denies this. It begins with the archaeologist Chi Pu Tei, from the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing who led an expedition to the Kunlun Mountains of Tibet in 1937 to 1938 (Side-Note: this would be around the same time Hitler and his Nazis went to Tibet in search of mystical powers). Looking for shelter from a storm his team entered a cave in a region called Bayan-Kara-Ula (image & map):

As is usual with hoaxes none of the sources can actually say where these caves are supposed to be located. The Baian-Kara-Ula area is at the border of Tibet and the Chinese province Sichuan. In 2008 Sichuan made headlines for one of the largest earthquakes in recent History, killing more than 90 000. But it has also been in the headlines for featuring one of the most significant archaeological discoveries of all times – not only for China, but for the whole world: An apparently fairly advanced lost civilization that existed in pre-historic times. More on this soon, for now back to the storyline:

Inside the cave Chi Pu Tei and his team found inscriptions on the walls and several tombs set up in a row. These tombs contained the skeletons of dwarves who averaged 1.20 cm in height and had abnormally large heads.

“Dwarves with abnormally large heads” does remind us of the “grey species” of contemporary UFO-Literature. Skeptics argue that the Dropa-Story was “fixed to corroborate with the grey-aliens myth”. This cannot be true though. As we will later see, the dropa story predates the emergence of the “grey alien” by at least more than 2 decades.

Buried along with the dwarves were 716 stone discs each about 30 cm wide and 1.0 cm deep. These are referred to as the “Dropa Stones”. Each has a hole in the middle just like the Bi-Disc and each is inscribed with hieroglyphs or symbols of unknown origin.

The story goes that the Chinese Academy of Sciences tried to cover-up the existence of the Dropa People and their stones but that it eventually trickled out into public. The stones lay undeciphered in vaults of the Academy of Sciences when in 1962 a Professor by the name of Tsum Um Nui and his team of the Prehistory department began deciphering inscriptions so small they had to be viewed with a magnifying glass. They were transcribed to paper. The Professor claimed that the inscriptions described the crash of an extraterrestrial spacecraft 12 000 years ago.

“The Dropa came out of the clouds in their aeroplanes. Before sunrise, our men, women and children hid in the caves ten times. When they finally understood the sign language of the Dropa, they realised the newcomers had peaceful intentions...”

It is also said that the alien beings would not be able to repair their craft and return to where they came from and that they were saddened by this.

Tsum Um Nui was soon thereafter forced to abandon his position and returned to his native Japan where he died one year later. In 1965 Chi Pu Tei and four of his colleagues were finally given permission to reveal their theory and publish it as "The Grooved Script concerning Space-ships which, as recorded on the Discs, landed on Earth 12,000 years ago".
Russian scientists then asked to examine the discs and found that they contained large amounts of cobalt, iron and nickel. According to a Dr. Vyatcheslav Saizev who described the examination of the stones in Sputnik magazine, they vibrate or “hum” as if an electric charge is passing through them. Some claimed that the “hum” was communicating certain signals like a record player would. This is where they got the name “the talking stones” from.

A follow-up book by Daniken tells the story of an Austrian Engineer, Ernst Wegerer, who took a guided tour of the Banpo Museum in Xian in 1974 and claimed to have seen the Dropa-Stones on display, including their tiny hieroglyphs in partially crumbled spiral grooves. Wegerer asked the Museum Manager for more information on the pieces but she knew nothing of them than that they were unimportant “cultic objects”. Wegerer was allowed to take them into his hand and estimate their weight (around 1 kilogram or 2 pounds) and take photos of them (the photos in this book section are by Wegerer). His photos do not capture the fine detail of the spiral grooves though.

Skeptics have claimed that none of the people in Danikens story actually exist. In the case of Wegerer this is certainly not true as Wegerer himself confirms that he does indeed exist. Searching the Internet you will be able to find photos of him and his discs.

According to a statement of Professor Wang Zhijun the Director of the Banpo-Museum in March 1994, a few days after Wegerers visit the manager was called away from her position at the museum without telling her why, and the two stone-discs vanished.

That is the basic outline of the Dropa-Story. At the time of its first publication much of it was entirely unverifiable. A continuation of the tale then followed in the 1978 book “Sungods in Exile” by David Agamon. This book describes a 1947 expedition of an English explorer Dr. Karyl Robin-Evans who said he made contact with the “Descendants of the Dropa” who at the time comprised of only a few hundred dwarfish members. The book says that Robin-Evans stayed with them for half a year to learn their Language and History and that they told him their ancestors come from Sirius.

After this book was published Skeptics really started coming out of the woodwork pointing out hundreds of inaccuracies and fabrications within the book. They could at last state, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the entire Dropa-issue was a hoax.

But: The author himself admitted in a 90s Interview with Fortean Times Magazine that the book was science-fiction and the character of Robin-Evans invented!

Which begs the question: Was the book purposefully designed to further discredit the Dropa-Story? This is an official rebuttal of the story by David Richie. It was first published in various Journals of Skeptics and now circulates around the Internet, my notes inserted below the paragraphs.

“1. The discovery. There are no mentions of 'Tsum Um Nui' anywhere; as he is supposed to have fled China and died in Japan in the 1960s this cannot be negated by Cultural Revolution, Communist coverup theory. Also, there is no mention of the 1938 archaeological expedition to the Banyan Kara Ulla range. No "Peking Academy of Pre-History" ever existed”.

It is correct that the existence of the Professor cannot be verified. But it is safe to assume that a Department for Pre-History existed within the Academy of Sciences.

2. Early Sources. The earliest mention of the story is in Erich von Damiens infamous 1968 book, Chariots of the Gods. The book has been widely criticized as unreliable; in fact, the vast majority of names and sources appearing in the book cannot be corroborated, and no existence of the following Soviet or Chinese scholars can be found anywhere outside this story: Cho Pu Tei, Tsum Um Nui, Ernst Wagener, Vyatcheslav Saizev, and Sergei Lolladoff. Most tellingly, Daniken gives his main source for the story as a Soviet science fiction writer Alexander Kazantsev; however Kazantsev himself disagrees with Daniken's account and says that it was Daniken who told him the story, not the other way around.

Not only is Danikens name misspelled, but the Dropa Stones are actually mentioned in Danikens book “Return to the Stars”. Furthermore, it is not true that Danikens books first mention the Dropa Stones, as we will see soon. Nevertheless hoards of Skeptics continue to say that they were first mentioned in his books. Neither is it true that Ernst Wegerer (also misspelled) did not exist.

3. Later Sources. The 1978 book Sungods in Exile "edited" by David Agamon, appeared to lend support to the story of the Dropa, but Agamon admitted in the magazine Fortean Times in 1988 that the book was fiction and that its alleged author, a British researcher named Dr. Karyl Robin-Evans, was imaginary. Some websites claim to show a photo of Dr Robin-Evans with the Dalai Lama. A frail, old man assisted by the current Dalai Lama, the photograph is quite recent and can not be Dr Robin-Evans -- he died in 1978, according to Hartwig Hausdorf.

It is correct that the entire book is unverifiable. Skeptics used the book to not only refute the story in general but to also to say that no race of dwarves exist in the region. As we will see, this too is untrue.

4. Translation. There is absolutely no precedent for an unknown language being successfully deciphered. All lost ancient languages have been rediscovered only because they survived in forms familiar to scientists. Even in such cases, deciphering and understanding these older language forms and their scripts has usually taken decades for multiple teams of highly competent linguists, and their findings are constantly being debated and updated. Many ancient scripts (notably Linear A from the island of Crete and Rongorongo from Easter Island), have defied deciphering precisely because they cannot be linked to any known language. Given these facts, there would be even greater difficulties in translating a truly extraterrestrial language. It is therefore highly unlikely that a single Chinese scholar with no reported background in linguistics could single-handedly decipher an alien script or language in his spare time.

5. The Disks. All that exists of the supposed alien disks are several wide-angle photographs. The disks photographed, firstly, do not match the described "12-inch disks"; the disks photographed are very large. Secondly, the photos show none of the supposed deep grooves. Finally, absolutely no photos, descriptions, analyses or any other evidence of the actual 'alien script' appear anywhere at all.

Early rebuttals claimed that there were no such things as ancient discs in China, much less buried with bodies. Those who said as much must have been ignorant of the thousands of discs found at burial sties not under the label “dropa stones” but Pi-Discs.

6. The Evidence. The disks were supposed to be stored in several museums in China. None of these museums have any traces of these disks, nor can any be found of the ones supposedly sent to USSR for analysis.

7. The Dropa Tribe. While reported to be a tribe of feeble dwarfs, in actuality the Dropas are nomadic herders who inhabit most of the northern Tibetan Plateau. The Ham are also inhabitants of Tibet, and traditionally have supplied Tibet's warriors: many of the 13th Dalai Lama's bodyguards during his escape from the Chinese invasion were Ham Tibetans. The word "Dropa", according to Creighton, describes the nomadic residents of Tibetan highlands, and can be roughly translated as "solitude" or "isolated". Furthermore, Creighton described the Dropa as not resembling "troglodytes", or as stunted; on the contrary, they tend to be rather large and sturdy, befitting their occupation as herders.

It is true that the Dropka (spoken with a “k”) are a nomadic tribe of Tibet. This does not rule out the existence of a race of dwarves.

In reviewing the subject I could not help but sigh at the ridiculousness of both Deniers and Believers of the story. The Believers simply copy the entire thing verbatim into their books and websites without any additional research or attempt at verification. Some add their own unfounded speculations to the mix. Skeptics simply copy or link to point-by-point rebuttals as the one just shown, without questioning it or noticing that at least half of it is not even true.

It is true that neither the 1938 Expedition nor the existence of the scientists can be verified. Some argue that this knowledge was lost in the 1966 “Cultural Revolution” of China, but that’s nothing to go by.

We owe much thanks to the Historian Dr. Jorg Dendl of Berlin. It was his persistent digging into obscure territory that uncovered some unexpected verifications of the Dropa-Story. First he found an earlier mention of the story as far back as 1962. Of all places he found it in a German Language Magazine for Vegetarians (“Das Vegetarische Universum”). In their July 1962 Edition they carried an article entitled “UFOs in Prehistory?” based on Russian and Chinese sources. This is interesting because it corresponds with the time the Professor is said to have deciphered the language.
After this was made public, others quickly found an even earlier version of the story in a 1960s issue of the Russian Magazine “Sputnik”. The story originating from a Russian Magazine would seem to make Danikens claim that a Russian told him the story, more likely. And since Russia was the only country back then, that was atop of various news and rumours of China it would only make sense that the story appears there.

In any case this is a wonderful example of how Skeptics (or should I say Pseudoskeptics), in their bias, are complicit in spreading false information. The story neither originated in 1978 nor 1970!

Dr. Dendl found more. He dug up a 1933 newspaper report about a Chinese confrontation with a dwarf-sized tribe in the Bayan-Kara-Ula area! The article relates how a small woman was being escorted by Chinese soldiers and that their group was being held as slaves and tortured by Chinese military. Chinese authorities justified the torture with them being “cannibals”, but this could just as well have been propaganda to justify their mistreatment. (And this may be the actual reason the story was covered-up!).

So let’s recap: Daniken relays the story in two of his books, not as a fact but as something he was told. Nevertheless he is later “exposed as a fraud”, a label that denigrates his reputation as a researcher of ancient astronauts. Years later David Agamon writes a book on it of which he later admits that he made it up, further tarnishing the reputation of the story.
Then, Jorg Dendl actually finds hard evidence to back the story up. A few years later, in 1995, authorities are forced to admit to the existence of a dwarf-like race in exactly that region. Contrary to Debunkers earlier assertions the existence of the Dwarves has meanwhile even been confirmed by the mainstream press. According to an AP news alert of November 1995 a “Village of Dwarfs” had been discovered in the Sichuan Province only a few hundred kilometres away from the Dropa-Cave. One newspaper report speculated that “environmental pollution” is to blame for their size. A Chinese ethnologist claimed that their dwarfism was due to high concentrations of mercury in the soil and that this had poisoned their drinking water (This was later refuted as nonsense by other scientists who pointed out that mercury would lead to immediate death). The tallest person of the village was 1.15 meters (three foot, ten inches) and the smallest 63.5 meters (two foot one inch). What is the most fascinating about this is that I could not find a single mainstream-news mention of them after this time. One would think that such a news item would gain more interest. (2)

Clearly, at least part of the story has a basis in reality. Ancient Stone Discs indeed existed. A dwarf-like race was found in the region but news of it hushed-up. Despite this, Skeptics in their journals and blogs still maintain that the entire story is false and that the case is closed.

Of course all this does not mean that there were ancient aliens from Sirius who crashed their (but who are we to say that the tribe does not believe that that’s where they came from? Many ancient tribes say they originate from the stars).

Because of the new evidence the Dropa-Story was revived in the 90s bestselling book “The Chinese Roswell” by German Researcher Hartwig Hausdorf. According to Hausdorf Chinese authorities have yet to allow any foreigners or researchers access to the area. Last but not least, Tibetan and Chinese legend has no scarcity of stories of dwarves. One example only:

Fu Xing: The Chinese God of Happiness, one of the San-xing. He is most frequently portrayed in the blue clothes of a civil servant and in the company of children, or in his symbolic form of a bat. His name means "Lucky Star". He is frequently confused with Tian-guan, the Ruler of Heaven. According to tradition, Fu-xing was a 6th century government official by the name of Yang Cheng from the village of Dao-zhou. All the people from this village were of extremely short stature. Every year, the emperor would summon a large number of people to his court, because he loved to surround himself by dwarfs. The population of this village reduced greatly over the years. Yang Cheng addressed a petition to the emperor asking him to show consideration for the people of his home town. The emperor was so moved by this petition that he never again summoned them to his court. There are other historical personalities to whom the functions of Fu-xing are ascribed. One is the 8th-century general Gou Zi-yi who saved the Tang Dynasty from destruction after an uprising. When the Heavenly Weaver appeared to him, he asked her to grant him fame and fortune. She replied that he himself was the god of wealth. (7)

(1) Teng Shu-Ping / The Original Significance of Bi-Discs, 2000
(2) Hartwig Hausdorf / The Chinese Roswell
(3) Philip Coppens / The Dropa Tribe and their Stones Revisited (Nexus Magazine)
(4) Cambridge University Press / Ancient Mesoamerica
(5) Erich von Daniken / Return to the Stars
(6) dailygrail.com/node/7078
(7) pantheon.org/articles/f/fu-xing.html

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Skyfloating]

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 07:14 AM
Part 1 describes who the Sky Gods were.

Part 2 (this thread) describes what the Sky Gods flew.

Part 3 describes what the Sky Gods did.

All that is done fron a China-centric perspective although it could easily also be done from a South American one, a European one, an African one, etc.

Feel free to discuss, question, oppose, debunk, confirm, add, speculate, think, talk, help, illustrate, rip apart, embrace, believe, disbelieve, contribute, ignore...

Edit: Part 3 published: Of Ancient Wars and Spacecraft

[edit on 24-10-2009 by Skyfloating]

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 07:21 AM
Excellent thread Skyfloating , I first read about the Dropa Stones and the story of the Dropa people about ten years ago , your thread has answered a few of the questions I had at the time , mainly regarding the translation of the disks , I always thought that part a bit dubious .
Do you think that as China is now coming in from the cold there may be a chance sometime in the future for researchers to get access to the disks and investigate their origin ?.
S and F for you and your thread

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 07:42 AM

Originally posted by gortex
Do you think that as China is now coming in from the cold there may be a chance sometime in the future for researchers to get access to the disks and investigate their origin ?.

Yes, I think China will open up in that respect too in the next decades already. Its only political and religious restraints that keep this stuff buried.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Skyfloating]

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 07:45 AM
reply to post by Skyfloating

so, the dragons could have been flying saucers, huh...I wonder if the ancients also saw the innards of these ships and saw cables and wires that would remind them of snakes

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 08:29 AM
If the stories are to be believed, on rare ocassions humans actually DID get to come on board of one of the dragons for a ride...

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Skyfloating]

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 08:51 AM
Excellent work!

I have another angle for your consideration:

Michael Harner "the Way of the Shaman":

They had come to the planet Earth to escape their enemy. The creatures then showed me how they had created life on the planet in order to hide within the multitudinous forms and thus disguise their presence. Before me, the magnificence of plant and animal creation and speciation-hundreds of millions of years of activity-took place on a scale and with a vividness impossible to describe. I learned that the dragon-like creatures were thus inside of all forms of life, including man.() They were the true masters of humanity and the entire planet, they told me. We humans were but the receptacles and servants of these creatures.

Carlos Castaneda:

We have a predator that came from the depths of the cosmos and took over the rule of our lives. Human beings are its prisoners. [...] You have arrived, by your effort alone, to what the shamans of ancient Mexico called the topic of topics. I have been beating around the bush all this time, insinuating to you that something is holding us prisoner. Indeed we are held prisoner! This was an energetic fact for the sorcerers of ancient Mexico. [...] They took over because we are food for them, and they squeeze us mercilessly because we are their sustenance. Just as we rear chickens in chicken coops, the predators rear us in human coops. Therefore, their food is always available to them.' [...]

"'I want to appeal to your analytical mind, ' don Juan said. 'Think for a moment, and tell me how you would explain the contradiction between the intelligence of man the engineer and the stupidity of his systems of beliefs, or the stupidity of his contradictory behavior. Sorcerers believe that the predators have given us our systems of beliefs, our ideas of good and evil, our social mores. They are the ones who set up our hopes and expectations and dreams of success or failure. They have given us covetousness, greed and cowardice. It is the predators who make us complacent, routinary, and egomaniacal.' [...]

In order to keep us obedient and meek and weak, the predators engaged themselves in a stupendous maneuver - stupendous, of course, from the point of view of a fighting strategist. A horrendous maneuver from the point of view of those who suffer it. They gave us their mind! Do you hear me? The predators give us their mind, which becomes our mind. The predators' mind is baroque, contradictory, morose, filled with the fear of being discovered any minute now. [...]

Through the mind, which, after all, is their mind, the predators inject into the lives of human beings whatever is convenient for them. [Castaneda, The Active Side of Infinity, 1998, pp. 213-220]


I have personally climbed the "vine of death" on numerous occasions and can attest to the validity of what is stated above by Michael Harner and Castaneda - not that this is "absolute" but it is a very valid facet of a multifacted theme.



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 09:28 AM
reply to post by Bravo111

You`re referring to the spiritual mirror version of the physical. That is, the ancient-astronaut-theory refers to physical events, but there is also a line of parallel spiritual events taking place...some of which Castaneda touched on...if that makes sense.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Skyfloating]

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 09:40 AM
Thank you so much for your Thread I can not wait for Part 3 ....Thank you once again for your time to post this .

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:05 AM

Originally posted by lisa2012
Thank you so much for your Thread I can not wait for Part 3 ....Thank you once again for your time to post this .

Thank you for having the attention-span to read it. Its not like all kinds of interesting info isnt available. With some time and attention everything can be found out.

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:14 AM
Are you saying that the only information available about the dwarf tribe recently discovered living near the cave comes from a single newspaper article?

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:15 AM

Originally posted by beatnietzsche
Are you saying that the only information available about the dwarf tribe recently discovered living near the cave comes from a single newspaper article?

No, there are surely many but I dont know Chinese. I can only refer to what the Associated Press picked up.

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:23 AM
reply to post by Skyfloating

Purely from memory: The AP picked the story up and it was run by several newspapers on that day.

But we all know how short-lived news items are.

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:48 AM
yes totally makes sense, I just dont think that they are disconnected.

Also my observation is that the non-physical aspect of this is the framework that allows for the physcial manifestation.



reply to post by Skyfloating

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:55 AM
Thanks for a tantalising read

I was in Taiwan earlier this year and its very much a given that Dragons existed in a physical form at some point in Earth history.

Here's a Cloud Dragon I saw last year

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:56 AM
i just learned that if you've never looked at the sichuan mountains on google earth, you're really, really missing out.

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 11:02 AM
reply to post by beatnietzsche

Add Sichuan Spicy Hot Pot to that list of things to try

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 11:35 AM
reply to post by Bravo111

Sure they`re connected. But the intellectually graspable info alone is already more than enough to write about or even understand. If I include the spiritual parts I´d be busy another few weeks for just one thread. So I´ll leave the other takes and angles to other posters...such as you.

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