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Originally posted by thomk
Scott,
I'm sorry. We seem to have a language barrier.
You appear to speak one dialect of English. I'm not sure, but I think it's "Artsy".
I speak a completely different one: "Engineer English".
Originally posted by thomk
Originally posted by scott3x
Originally posted by thomk
Just out of curiosity, what work of Balsamo's do you find deserving of respect.
A great deal of it actually. I haven't found a PFT video that I haven't been impressed with.
...
There is only one thing that impresses me: correct answers.
Originally posted by thomk
In all of the videos of theirs that I've watched, I see approximately zero competent epistemology, zero rigor, zero maturity and zero correct conclusions.
Originally posted by thomk
Are you impressed with the pilots who claim that a boring, 1.1G, 3 minute sweeping turn is a "Top Gun maneuver"?
Originally posted by thomk
Are you impressed with a bozo who tells you that someone could not possibly fly a plane into a building that is wider than 99% of the runways in the US?
Originally posted by thomk
(How do those pilots manage to land on the runways?)
Originally posted by thomk
Are you impressed with the due diligence and rigor of a bozo who discovers one irrelevant thing in the data (the Flight Data Door bit) one day, and two days later announces to the world that he's "proven that the hijacking was impossible"?
Originally posted by thomk
Are you impressed with the utter illogic, massive irony and just plain "fence post IQ" of someone who is adamantly asserting that he is using information taken off of a FDR that was pulled out of the wreckage of the Pentagon ... to prove that the plane carrying the FDR passed OVER the Pentagon??
Originally posted by thomk
Originally posted by scott3x
Originally posted by thomk
You'll have to forgive me. I'm an engineer. There's only one thing that we respect: being right.
By that criteria, I'm at a total loss to see what he's done that stands up to the slightest informed scrutiny.
I respect turbofan as well, and unlike Rob, he hasn't banned me for disagreeing with him.
I wasn't asking if Turbo was nice. Or if Robby was mean.
I am asking "what assertions of theirs have you concluded are correct"?
Originally posted by thomk
Please think about it for a bit, and tell me the two or three MOST COMPELLING conclusions that he has drawn that you believe are factually correct.
There are many pilots who are quite impressed with PFT's work.
Originally posted by scott3x
Off the top of my head:
1- The impossible pull up (the 10g one).
2- The evidence that the FDR data given would imply that the plane didn't follow the official story flight path.
3- His conclusion that CIT's North of Citgo flight path witnesses are correct.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by scott3x
There are many pilots who are quite impressed with PFT's work.
Well, that depends on your definition of "many", dunnnit?
Does "many" mean the baker's dozen or so that P4T claims repeatedly as their "core" membership of experts...the ones who ThomK reminds us say they can't hit a massive skyscraper like one of the former Twin Towers, in the simulator, without slowing to landing speeds??
Because, from reviewing posts over there, more often than not the people who bother to write anything at all (besides the Admins) are always gushing over how wonderful Robby is, saying things like, "I'm not a pilot, but you sure make it easy for even ME to understand!" I paraphrase, but t hat's the gist.
P4T is a joke, a fool's errand. They are a blot on the landscape.
A bug to smash.
This has been shown, over and over. The Emperor has no clothes...and I wish he'd put them on, go away and stop poisoning the well...mixed metaphors, I know.
_____________________________________________________________
Originally posted by weedwhacker
Originally posted by scott3x
There are many pilots who are quite impressed with PFT's work.
Well, that depends on your definition of "many", dunnnit?
Does "many" mean the baker's dozen or so that P4T claims repeatedly as their "core" membership of experts...the ones who ThomK reminds us say they can't hit a massive skyscraper like one of the former Twin Towers, in the simulator, without slowing to landing speeds??
Originally posted by weedwhacker
Because, from reviewing posts over there, more often than not the people who bother to write anything at all (besides the Admins) are always gushing over how wonderful Robby is, saying things like, "I'm not a pilot, but you sure make it easy for even ME to understand!" I paraphrase, but that's the gist.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
P4T is a joke, a fool's errand. They are a blot on the landscape.
A bug to smash.
This has been shown, over and over. The Emperor has no clothes...and I wish he'd put them on, go away and stop poisoning the well...mixed metaphors, I know.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
Originally posted by scott3x
Off the top of my head:
1- The impossible pull up (the 10g one).
That is very, very old news, based on the P4T's flawed interpretation of the FDR dat csv files, the ones they acquired by dubious means, and had "decoded" by someone whom they felt was competent. However, Mr. Warren Stutt has shown himself to be far, far more competent in that matter.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
The alleged "10g" pull up is horse puckey.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
2- The evidence that the FDR data given would imply that the plane didn't follow the official story flight path.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
What P4T does do is blather on about DME distance recorded in FDR data...but, as I've spent many electrons trying to explain, that is just another in a score (or more) of their bloviating, blustering buffoonery.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
The extent of their claim you reference is related to something known as IRS (or INS) "drift". The IRS navigation devices are not designed to be, nor expected to be, as accurate as you might think. Their purpose is for gross latitude/longitude positional computation. (They have otehr functions, but for now that's enough to know). Nowadays, many many more airplanes have included GPS updating, so accuracy is getting tighter. But, not on American 77, it had no GPS update.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
Originally posted by scott3x
3- His conclusion that CIT's North of Citgo flight path witnesses are correct.
No, they are human beings. They are prone to error, and suggestion. THAT has been shown, repeatedly.
Originally posted by Lillydale
Originally posted by weedwhacker
P4T is a joke, a fool's errand. They are a blot on the landscape.
A bug to smash...
Wow, you sure said a lot of nothing there didn't you? So you can trash P4T with baseless attacks. Can you show they deserve your derision or do you just have more crap to sell?
Originally posted by Majic
Though passions are flaring over the ongoing violence in the Middle East and other hot topics, it's important to remember that mutual respect and tolerance of differing opinions is what sets us apart and makes our community so unique -- and discussion here so worthwhile.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Lillydale
More character assassination from Lilly, an inevitable ploy about once every month or so...
Well, go ahead and ask Springer:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
I hate to do this, but your blathering needed to be put in its place.
I've seen his FAA documentation and vetted him in other ways also, he is exactly what he says he is.
Springer...
Perhaps turbofan or someone else who knows more on such things could comment...
Originally posted by scott3x
Originally posted by thomk
Please think about it for a bit, and tell me the two or three MOST COMPELLING conclusions that he has drawn that you believe are factually correct.
Off the top of my head:
1- The impossible pull up (the 10g one).
2- The evidence that the FDR data given would imply that the plane didn't follow the official story flight path.
3- His conclusion that CIT's North of Citgo flight path witnesses are correct.
Originally posted by scott3x
Originally posted by thomk
Just out of curiosity, what work of Balsamo's do you find deserving of respect.
A great deal of it actually. I haven't found a PFT video that I haven't been impressed with.
Originally posted by scott3x
(Rob Balsamo has since stated that he no longer believes the pentagon might have been hit by a missile like device, for 1).
Originally posted by scott3x
Originally posted by thomk
Are you impressed with the pilots who claim that a boring, 1.1G, 3 minute sweeping turn is a "Top Gun maneuver"?
I remember succinctly that Rob Balsamo stated that 10 gs would have had to have been exerted in order to pull up after hitting the light polls and coming in low and level as seen in the 5 frame video.
Originally posted by scott3x
Originally posted by thomk
Are you impressed with a bozo who tells you that someone could not possibly fly a plane into a building that is wider than 99% of the runways in the US?
I'm not sure who you're referring to, but I'm guesing you're speaking of PFT's new video talking of the unlikelihood if hitting the twin towers by a non professional pilot? I haven't actually seen this new video of theirs, but from what I've heard, at the speed the planes were going at, it does look like it would have been fairly difficult.
Originally posted by scott3x
Originally posted by thomk
(How do those pilots manage to land on the runways?)
I think the largest factor may be lower speed.
Originally posted by scott3x
Originally posted by thomk
Are you impressed with the due diligence and rigor of a bozo who discovers one irrelevant thing in the data (the Flight Data Door bit) one day, and two days later announces to the world that he's "proven that the hijacking was impossible"?
It seems that Rob Balsamo's getting a lot of heat for this theory of his, and not only from official story supporters. So let's make this the second conclusion he's drawn that I have serious reservations on.
Originally posted by scott3x
Originally posted by thomk
Are you impressed with the utter illogic, massive irony and just plain "fence post IQ" of someone who is adamantly asserting that he is using information taken off of a FDR that was pulled out of the wreckage of the Pentagon ... to prove that the plane carrying the FDR passed OVER the Pentagon??
Is he truly asserting that the FDR crashed into the pentagon, or only that it was "found" there? There is a large difference between those 2 assertions.
Originally posted by scott3x
Originally posted by thomk
I am asking "what assertions of theirs have you concluded are correct"?
Off the top of my head:
1- The impossible pull up (the 10g one).
2- The evidence that the FDR data given would imply that the plane didn't follow the official story flight path.
3- His conclusion that CIT's North of Citgo flight path witnesses are correct.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
scott, I hate to say it, but you're too deep into the P4T nonsense to see it for what it is. Smoke and mirrors. Alleged by a small...very small...group who have an agenda that, frankly, escapes logic, to me.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
Have you seen the animation that depicts what was reconstructed, albeit in an initial pass, from the FDR?
It shows very basic info, like the control wheel movements, the altitude, airspeed and heading info, and thrust lever positions. Along with a three-dimensional path depiction.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
The "10g pullup" baloney is stuff they just pull out of any convenient orifice, and is NOT based on precise measurements... it is massaged, by them, in order to bolster their claims.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
It uses what is already understood to be lat/long positional data subject to a lot of margin for error, and the pressure altimeter info too....again, not nearly as exact, in a micro-second by micro-second examination.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
And, in all of this bleating about the pressure altitude (they abbreviate it 'PA' for ease of typing) they completely ignore the radar altitude (aka radio altimeter data). A far more accurate measuring device, it reads directly below the airplane, using radio signals that reflect off of any surface beneath, and the resulting timing is converted into distance in feet. BUT, its accuracy can be affected by irregular terrain below. And there are limits in the time factor, as info is processed.
I'm sure that P4T don't like to talk about ANY of the data that is inconvenient to their established "story" --- they ignore it, and only present the rest. THAT is the problem with relying on them too much, as you no doubt have been as yet.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
Oh, and the discussion over there about g-forces??? Did you see the one where Balsamo calculated over 2000 gs?!?!!!! I think THAT is what you may have read about, concerning math difficulties seen by Mr. 'extreme pilot'.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
Sorry, but the wheels are coming off his bus.
Originally posted by Lillydale
It is like this. You sound more like a liar than a pilot when you post. That is my opinion. I am not stating a fact that I have confirmed, just what I think. When I read your posts, more and more I see someone who has read a great deal but comes across as dishonest and deals in overcompensation. I have seen other posters who claim to also be pilots question the validity of your claim and even pose questions to you that I do not recall you answering. Of course I do not know if they are truly pilots either so it is just more opinion based theory. Unfortunately, this does little to help change what I think.
Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by scott3x
ThomK has covered it very nicely, I refer back to his three-part post, as a response that you made to me.