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New FDR Decode

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posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by tezzajw
Alfie1, you really need to read my posts and stop your assumptions about what I believe/support.



How about sticking with the facts and following from there, shall we?


That is really, really funny coming from someone who lied by making up something out of whole cloth and attributing it as something I believed and said.

Something about extreme hypocrisy crops up when I see the ATS member "tezzajw" lecture someone else about "stop your assumptions" and about "sticking with facts".

Standard PfT playbook, in any event. Why should we believe anything from the PfT side of the discussion with regards to this FDR query when the PfT representatives feel they need to lie to score points in an argument?




posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 06:23 PM
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reply to post by solequinox
 


See switch here:



Also see my posts on the previous page linking the Boeing charts with
reference to EICAS port 41.



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by solequinox
The purpose of this post is to ask some questions......


And try to rescue Balsamo. Oh...or is this Rob?



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by trebor451
That is really, really funny coming from someone who lied by making up something out of whole cloth and attributing it as something I believed and said.

trebor, in your self alleged 25 year career as a veteran 'civil servant' government DoD employee, did it ever occur to you that beating a dead horse is pointless? There's only so many times that you can call me a liar before the shine wears off and no one really gives a damn about you bleating like a pinched lamb.

Your attempt to drag the thread off topic by slurring my ATS reputation is noted - again.

Do you have a 100% definitive reason for why the alleged FDR data shows the door CLOSED, trebor? If so, what is it and where is your proof?



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by ImAPepper

Originally posted by solequinox
The purpose of this post is to ask some questions......

And try to rescue Balsamo. Oh...or is this Rob?

How is your pointless post relevant to the thread?



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by tezzajw

How is your pointless post relevant to the thread?


How is your pointless response to my pointless post relevant to the thread?



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 08:13 PM
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reply to post by turbofan
 


Thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately I was not able to view the schematic on the pilotsfortruth.com website. I have just registered with them but I'm still not able to post and it said I didn't have permission to view the images. I would like to see the schematics for the sensor. Can you post them somewhere else for everyone?

Also, I was unable to find anything about specific upgrades for N644AA on the FAA Registry site that was linked. I understand that we can confirm the FDR and the data frame layout (which I assume is like software for the FDR) were upgraded and could support the FLT_DECK_DOOR sensor.

Does this mean that a sensor was necessarily installed, or could they have just implemented an infrastructure that could support a sensor and grounded the wire that was supposed to go to the sensor (and would this read as a 0 on the FDR?)



Edit: After doing some more research online, I found the regulations for FDRs from the FAA and it mentions the following:



(1) In addition to meeting the requirements of CFR Section 21.605, the manufacturer must furnish the Manager, Aircraft Certification Office (ACO), Federal Aviation Administration, having purview of the manufacturer's facilities, one copy each of the following technical data: (i) Operating instruction. (ii) Equipment limitations. (iii) Installation procedures and limitations. (iv) Schematic drawings as applicable to the installation Procedures. (v) Wiring diagrams as applicable to the installation procedures. (vi ) Specifications. (vii) List of the major components (by part number) that make up the equipment complying with the standards prescribed in this TSO.


I wonder if these documents about the specific FDR that was in Flight 77 could shed some light on this issue of whether or not the sensor was installed or if the wire was grounded, and if they would be available due to FOIA requests?



[edit on 1-12-2009 by solequinox]



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by turbofan
reply to post by solequinox
 


See switch here:



Also see my posts on the previous page linking the Boeing charts with
reference to EICAS port 41.




I would like to see this too. Any chance you can host the image here for those of us who've been banned at PfT? I don't know what you have there, but what you need is a wiring print for Flight Data Acquisition; not the cockpit door control or warning. I think we can all agree that AA77 did indeed have a cockpit door.

This wiring print should be from AA's 757 manual system, not a generic Boeing schematic that you might find on google. It should show effectivity for ship 644(or 044, however AA does it). It will show all the inputs to the FDAU. You will be looking for wiring going to the FDAU from the EICAS racks(E-8 racks) which shares a terminal block, or even a splice, with wiring going to the door switch. You won't see the door switch on that print, but you will see one of the wires on the print turn into a Wiring Diagram Reference for ATA Chapter 25-1x. It may even say "flight deck door(discrete)" or similar above the wire; it may not say anything.

I wanted to look this up on our 757's tonight, but alas, I was busy all night.

So, that's what will prove the "FLT DECK DOOR" parameter was installed and(most likely) functional. What you have right now is a reference to this parameter on the FDR data frame descriptor which post-dates the FDAU/FDR installation, and you have a logic low for the 41 hour entirety of data on a frame/word where said frame descriptor thinks this parameter lives. That there is a logic low in that word should not be surprising.

[edit on 1-12-2009 by 767doctor]



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 12:11 AM
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Just stopped by to see if anyone found a 1 in the FLT DECK DOOR parameter in the 42 hours of recorded data yet. Several pages of "yes it was hooked up", "please say it was hooked up", "your momma wears combat boots", but no evidence of the parameter actually working. I'll check back again tomorrow.



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 12:23 AM
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Originally posted by ImAPepper

Originally posted by solequinox
The purpose of this post is to ask some questions......


And try to rescue Balsamo. Oh...or is this Rob?



Said in my most spooky voice,

"Rob is everywhere!!!!! mwahahahahaha!"

Turbofan is Rob, Tezzajw is Rob, solequinox is Rob! I am Rob!

And everyone who argues witnesses at the Pentagon is Craig Ranke!

ahem...

and they call us paranoid....





[edit on 2-12-2009 by R_Mackey]



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by solequinox
I would like to see the schematics for the sensor. Can you post them somewhere else for everyone?


I don't know how some of you are envisioning this door switch and how it relates to the parameter in question, but a schematic for the door switch is practically useless here. The switches primary I'm certainly getting the idea that some of you think the switch is there strictly for the sake of the FDR; it isn't) is to provide a sort of "door ajar" warning for the pilots. This warning comes in the form of an EICAS message, or simply a text style warning message on the upper engine display. What we need to see is the wiring connectivity between the EICAS computer rack, the door switch, and the Flight Data Acquisition Unit.

I'm suspecting that the wiring from the EICAS rack to the FDAU is non-existent. That means the circuit is open. From there, its how the FDAU handles that open. The door warning is a hi/lo discrete, so the FDAU is either going to call this open a 0 or a 1 and put it on the appropriate word on the appropriate frame. Now when the FDR gets read, its up to the frame descriptors(software used by the NTSB; that is, independent of the FDAU) to sort of pick out this parameter and read the resultant binary data.

What many of us here think, certainly 911files does and I agree wholeheartedly, is that the frame descriptors PfT used(Warren I guess?) did not match the configuration of the airplane. 911files has ascertained that the parameter was not included on 1991 models of the 757 - and again, I agree. That parameter certainly isn't there on any of the frame descriptors prior to 1997. I think this fact is important.



Also, I was unable to find anything about specific upgrades for N644AA on the FAA Registry site that was linked. I understand that we can confirm the FDR and the data frame layout (which I assume is like software for the FDR) were upgraded and could support the FLT_DECK_DOOR sensor.

Does this mean that a sensor was necessarily installed, or could they have just implemented an infrastructure that could support a sensor and grounded the wire that was supposed to go to the sensor (and would this read as a 0 on the FDR?)


In avionics, grounds have heck of a lot of uses; but what you describe isn't one of them. We see this all the time doing modifications; if features get added but don't get used right away(ie provisional) we route the wires end to end but leave the ends dead-headed, or open on both ends.

It's certainly possible that AA added this feature(that is, the ability to record the door position, not the door switch itself - which obviously came installed from the factory) but it should not be assumed that they did.




[edit on 2-12-2009 by 767doctor]



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by 767doctor

Originally posted by turbofan
reply to post by solequinox
 


See switch here:



Also see my posts on the previous page linking the Boeing charts with
reference to EICAS port 41.




I would like to see this too. Any chance you can host the image here for those of us who've been banned at PfT? I don't know what you have there, but what you need is a wiring print for Flight Data Acquisition; not the cockpit door control or warning. I think we can all agree that AA77 did indeed have a cockpit door.

This wiring print should be from AA's 757 manual system, not a generic Boeing schematic that you might find on google. It should show effectivity for ship 644(or 044, however AA does it). It will show all the inputs to the FDAU. You will be looking for wiring going to the FDAU from the EICAS racks(E-8 racks) which shares a terminal block, or even a splice, with wiring going to the door switch. You won't see the door switch on that print, but you will see one of the wires on the print turn into a Wiring Diagram Reference for ATA Chapter 25-1x. It may even say "flight deck door(discrete)" or similar above the wire; it may not say anything.

I wanted to look this up on our 757's tonight, but alas, I was busy all night.

So, that's what will prove the "FLT DECK DOOR" parameter was installed and(most likely) functional. What you have right now is a reference to this parameter on the FDR data frame descriptor which post-dates the FDAU/FDR installation, and you have a logic low for the 41 hour entirety of data on a frame/word where said frame descriptor thinks this parameter lives. That there is a logic low in that word should not be surprising.

[edit on 1-12-2009 by 767doctor]


767Doctor,

How can the FDR record a grounded parameter when you've stated if it's not used, the wiring is just left open?



The vast majority are just open, not wired to the systems that they are supposed to record.


forums.randi.org...

It's also good you admit a switch fail would not cause all 0's recorded.

Do you guys have any proof whatsoever that the door was open for the hijack?

[edit on 2-12-2009 by R_Mackey]



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 12:52 AM
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767Doctor,

How can the FDR record a grounded parameter when you've stated if it's not used, the wiring is just left open?


Ok, first of all, your question didn't make any sense....but I'll try to answer anyways. When that parameter is installed on an airplane, the FDAU(and the EICAS computer as well) is gonna see either a ground or an open. My instincts tell me that the EICAS computer is looking for a ground to trigger the door warning, because that's the way similar systems work, in my experience.

Do you follow so far? Lets just assume for a second that on a perfectly functional plane, a door is closed in flight, the EICAS computer as a result is getting an open; so is the FDAU, so it records a logic 0. Now an FA opens the door, EICAS sees a ground has been made and triggers the message; FDAU now records a logic 1. Two states. 0 or 1. Ground or open. Purdy simple stuff....nite folks.

on edit: it can work the other way around too. For example, Passenger Doors and Access hatches uses inductive proximity sensors, instead of mechanical switches. Those would work the opposite of the way I describe above. You obviously want the light to come on when there is suddenly an open. Mechanical switches can be wired either way.



[edit on 2-12-2009 by 767doctor]

[edit on 2-12-2009 by 767doctor]

[edit on 2-12-2009 by 767doctor]



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by 911files
Just stopped by to see if anyone found a 1 in the FLT DECK DOOR parameter in the 42 hours of recorded data yet. Several pages of "yes it was hooked up", "please say it was hooked up", "your momma wears combat boots", but no evidence of the parameter actually working. I'll check back again tomorrow.


Yes, I'm wondering the same thing.

Have you uploaded the full 42 hour csv file to your site at all? I'd be interested in double-checking the data. I'm surprised no-one from PFT has offered to do the same.



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 02:10 AM
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Originally posted by Orphia Nay

Originally posted by 911files
Just stopped by to see if anyone found a 1 in the FLT DECK DOOR parameter in the 42 hours of recorded data yet. Several pages of "yes it was hooked up", "please say it was hooked up", "your momma wears combat boots", but no evidence of the parameter actually working. I'll check back again tomorrow.


Yes, I'm wondering the same thing.

Have you uploaded the full 42 hour csv file to your site at all? I'd be interested in double-checking the data. I'm surprised no-one from PFT has offered to do the same.



Welcome Orphia Nay! Nice to see another JREF-ninja here!



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 02:13 AM
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Originally posted by 767doctor

Originally posted by Orphia Nay

Originally posted by 911files
Just stopped by to see if anyone found a 1 in the FLT DECK DOOR parameter in the 42 hours of recorded data yet. Several pages of "yes it was hooked up", "please say it was hooked up", "your momma wears combat boots", but no evidence of the parameter actually working. I'll check back again tomorrow.


Yes, I'm wondering the same thing.

Have you uploaded the full 42 hour csv file to your site at all? I'd be interested in double-checking the data. I'm surprised no-one from PFT has offered to do the same.



Welcome Orphia Nay! Nice to see another JREF-ninja here!


Thanks! Are you one too? What's your nick over there?



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 02:31 AM
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Originally posted by Orphia Nay
Have you uploaded the full 42 hour csv file to your site at all? I'd be interested in double-checking the data. I'm surprised no-one from PFT has offered to do the same.


I posted the FLT DECK OPEN csv with all 42 hours worth of data here already.

FLT DECK OPEN csv

But just for you, I ran the entire file with everything Warren is extracting in it. It is like 41 individual csv files in a zip file of around 27mb. Enjoy!

EVERYTHING

It's done...

JREF Ninjas


[edit on 2-12-2009 by 911files]

[edit on 2-12-2009 by 911files]



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 02:38 AM
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Originally posted by R_Mackey
Do you guys have any proof whatsoever that the door was open for the hijack?


We are not the one's sending out press releases, mass emailings and forum trolling to say that is was not opened. Burden of proof is on you bubba.



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 02:53 AM
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Originally posted by Orphia Nay
Have you uploaded the full 42 hour csv file to your site at all? I'd be interested in double-checking the data. I'm surprised no-one from PFT has offered to do the same.



Read the bold below Orphia.



....we have verified Warrens data for the last flight only, the alleged hijacking on Sept 11, it shows the door closed.

Some have made the claim that the rest of the data also shows the door closed for the entire time. We at P4T do not have the resources at this time to verify that additional data. But again, we did verify the last flight through our own decode. In the future, we may be able to verify the rest.

As we know, those who make excuse for the govt story will believe anything they're told if it supports their beliefs. None of them have verified the ADDITIONAL 40 hours of data. They just take it at face value because it MAY support their agenda.

Keep in mind, if the data all showed 1's, meaning door open, we can definitively say the data is erroneous, as there is no way the cockpit door would be open for 40 hours of passenger service at American Airlines. And if logic has any value, this would be the bit value recorded if the FLIGHT DECK DOOR parameter wasn't hooked up to the system so when a tech reviews the data, he can readily admit its not valid.

But the fact is the data shows all 0's for the last flight and verified by P4T. This means the door was closed for that flight and the hijacking impossible BASED ON THE DATA. The NTSB/FBI are the only ones who are able to, and need to, explain this alarming conflict.

All else is speculation and theory.

Again, this data not PROOF of anything as I mentioned on page one of this thread where i stated "...we can not confirm or deny the authenticity of the data as provided by the NTSB". All we know for a FACT, is that the data being provided by the NTSB to the American public through the FOIA does NOT support the govt story, once again. The NTSB/FBI refuse to comment.


Source
pilotsfor911truth.org...

Orphia, itt's good you question the extra 40 hours of data. It appears you are a True Skeptic. None of you "peers" have asked for it to be verified. You may want to think about that.

767Doctor, your edit suggesting "the above could show the opposite" neutralizes every claim you made in your post. Not to mention the fact you work for Delta. Your manuals are worthless as United doesn't record the cockpit door sensor, it's not listed in the NTSB pdf. But the NTSB pdf for American lists FLT DECK DOOR. They are all 0's for the last flight and verified by P4T.

I see no one here STILL has not been able to provide ANY proof for a cockpit door OPEN situation for the hijack to take place, confirmed and required by FAA Pressure altitude errors, Radar Altitude measurements from a known object, N644AA positively identified as the aircraft which caused the damage at the Pentagon, the list goes on.

Let us know when you have proof for the above and perhaps you will see less growth in the "Troof Movement".


[edit on 2-12-2009 by R_Mackey]



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 03:13 AM
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Originally posted by R_Mackey

767Doctor, your edit suggesting "the above could show the opposite" neutralizes every claim you made in your post. Not to mention the fact you work for Delta. Your manuals are worthless as United doesn't record the cockpit door sensor, it's not listed in the NTSB pdf. But the NTSB pdf for American lists FLT DECK DOOR. They are all 0's for the last flight and verified by P4T.



Read my first post of the day. Show us proof that AA had this parameter operational or withdraw your BS claim. I told you exactly how you can do it, and you supposedly have core members at AA, so its time to put up or shut up.

Oh and I made the edit fully realizing that you morons have no clue about the differences between "normally open" and "normally closed" switches. Of course they can work either way. I wasn't saying, in my little scenario above, that I'm 100% certain that's how this parameter would work...but I was just telling you that yes and open circuit at the FDAU could produce a logic low in the manner I describe, and that's with the parameter actually working.




I see no one here STILL has not been able to provide ANY proof for a cockpit door OPEN situation for the hijack to take place, confirmed and required by FAA Pressure altitude errors, Radar Altitude measurements from a known object, N644AA positively identified as the aircraft which caused the damage at the Pentagon, the list goes on.

Let us know when you have proof for the above and perhaps you will see less growth in the "Troof Movement".



It's your claim, it's not up to us to support it. That's your job, now get to it...

[edit on 2-12-2009 by 767doctor]




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