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New FDR Decode

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posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 10:35 PM
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reply to post by 911files
 


OK, thanks John, I will!

Tommy, you failed to read back and research. Another error your part!

I've already explained how the VSI works long before you came along.
It's a shame you can't read the post I made especially for you which
listed all the times I corrected your errors.

Look for it on ummm...page 39? Maybe 40?




posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 11:00 PM
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Oh heck, I'm tired of hearing turbo whine....



I could sure use your help finding the GMT date data. Warren can't seem to find it where is supposed to be (WORD 256). There was no WORD 256 in the 757-2 frame. Darn, you don't think they might have forgot to hook it up do you?

Never mind, they did not add that parameter until 757-3B, silly me. They did not add those until 12/22/1997. Whooops


Update: I know you are out there turbo, I really need those dates so as soon as you can find them for me, the better. I mean, they have to be hooked up right?

[edit on 29-11-2009 by 911files]



posted on Nov, 29 2009 @ 11:32 PM
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Originally posted by turbofan



Well I had enough of playing semantics with Mr. "Doctor". All that matters
is PA is measured using an electrical sensor and NOT an aneriod altimeter
which was the whole point of the debate 10 pages ago. So, we'll carry
forward then!


Boy, just when I thought the light was on. Nope, it's not and apparently theres nobody home. You're still wrong. You see, the transducer I've been telling you about relies on the bellows(aneroid components if you will) inside the ADC.

It goes like this:

Pitot and Static Ports -> Pneumatic plumbing -> (now inside the ADC) Bellows/Aneroids -> Lots of intricate little components like you'll find in a standard altimeter -> Transducer(performs the pneumatic to electronic signal conversion) -> ARINC processor -> (Now back outside the ADC) Rack connector -> Wiring -> Altimeter/VSI/ASI

BTW, where in gods name are you going with this? You cant have altimeter data/VSI data purely electronically. Thats why there are still aneroid components/bellows in an ADC. Tell me, Turbofan, in your own words, what is it that you think an Air Data Computer does? A Static Port?

Are you trying to say there cannot be any lag? Duhhh, of course there can be.



I mean someone went through the trouble to assign pins, figure logic states, add header info, program word, frame and bit positions, etc.
But naaaaaaa, it wasn't monitoring the door? Interesting logic sir.


Uhhhh, baffling with BS will get you nowhere. Tell me TF, if a logic 0 is sitting in a frame, at a certain word, does that mean someone went through the trouble of doing everything you mention above for that logic 0 to be there? Or could it be there because, because well, either a 0 or 1 has to be there since its a binary word. Remember a binary word can have only 2 states(I'm reminding you since you apparently has trouble with this concept earlier). If you then use a frame descriptor designed for a future FDAU it will look at that that frame/word and decide that it is x parameter, then look at its value (0 or 1) and decide the state of the parameter(door closed). But if you use the proper frame descriptors, it wont even look for that word/frame combination and therefore you not see a parameter at all....pretty simple stuff.


Originally posted by R_Mackey

And I know your last name too Jay. So do many Core Members of P4T, especially those at Delta.


Ok, enough fun for one day. Enjoy your night!



I'm shaking in my boots.

[edit on 29-11-2009 by 767doctor]



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 02:44 AM
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Originally posted by 767doctor
BTW, where in gods name are you going with this? You cant have altimeter data/VSI data purely electronically. Thats why there are still aneroid components/bellows in an ADC.


Wait a minute! Are you trying to tell me there are bellows inside of the
ADC?

My car has a MAP sensor which indicates manifold pressure and it
doesn't need a bellows. With the engine off, it reads baro. pressure.


Honeywell makes a dual transducer model. Look at the tiny size of the
case compared to the connector:
www.honeywell.com...

commerce.honeywell.com...



Please tell me what model of ADC used in your 757/767 that uses bellows?


Tell me, Turbofan, in your own words, what is it that you think an Air Data Computer does? A Static Port?


Already explained on page 39 (and others). ADC converts voltages from
the pressure sensor into information the pilot views on his/her monitor.

As for the FLT DECK DOOR, John you're close...but I asked for a parameter
which was decoded. If Warren can't extract the data, it probably wasn't
polling!

Aside from that, I will check my documentation to view the pin assignments
if any.

Thanks for that little bit.

P.S. "Doc" don't even try to tell me about a single bit of binary. You better
start reading my posts and stop making assumptions like your friend TommyK.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by turbofan]



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 02:50 AM
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Is there a DOCTOR in the house?


www.rockwellcollins.com...

You just got "EXPOSED" big time! 767Doctor is NOT an
aircraft mechanic and "IF" he is...he has NO CLUE ABOUT THE ADC!

Notice some key words here people:

TOTALLY DIGITAL

SENSORS

that means NO BELLOWS!


The ADC-3000 uses a totally digital design approach. It digitizes pressure and temperature information from the sensors then digitally computes and transmits the data throughout the system.

Transmissions to other on-board systems are also digital. This unique digital design offers reduced size, weight and power consumption; continuous monitoring of all functions and internal diagnostics; increased system integrity and simplified installation.



Unbelievable! Another wanna-be internet anonymous 'expert'...must be from JREF?


[edit on 30-11-2009 by turbofan]



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 04:21 AM
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Awww, did I hurt your widdle feewings? Yes, Mr Poseur, ADC's most certainly can and do have bellows. You linked a brand new model for exectutive/GA aircraft not certified for use on the 757. Oh, here's a fun fact - the 757 was introduced in 1983! Thats like....what...20 years before you were born!

I have my Avionics bible nearby and I'll be scanning the relevant stuff for now, and in time I'll be snipping the CMM on an ADC I'm familiar with, not one for a GA aircraft, but one that serves as the primary ADC on biggest fleet of 757's in the world!

[edit on 30-11-2009 by 767doctor]



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 04:32 AM
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20 years before I was born?


By the way, I linked more than one ADC; did you look at all the links?

You don't need the bellows to read baro my 'friend'. Do you even know
the purpose of the bellows? Your buddy Tom talked about it a few pages
back. Maybe you should read up!

The pressure sensor doesn't need a bellows to read baro. I've already
proven that.

You better check the FAR's and make sure the ADC wasn't updated
along with many other items on passenger category airliners.

When you return make sure you scan the part of your 'bible' where it
says you're wrong about SENSORS.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by turbofan]



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 04:44 AM
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Originally posted by tomk52
You did NOT say "you can't take off with a broken seat belts".
You did NOT say "you can't take off with a broken Wings".
You did NOT say "you can't take off with a broken Engine".
You did NOT say "you can't take off with a broken Landing Gear".
You did NOT say "you can't take off with a broken Seats".
You did NOT say "you can't take off with a broken Control yoke".
You did NOT say "you can't take off with a broken throttle lever".
You did NOT say "you can't take off with a broken Mixture Lever".

You DID say (and I quote to be specific):

Originally posted by R_Mackey
In other words, if you don't have an approved MEL, you cannot fly with so much as an overhead sun visor broken (if installed) unless approved by the FAA. If you have done so in your little Cessna, you busted regs.


And I say that you are wrong. I say that I can take off with a broken visor. Or several other possible pieces of equipment. As long as I did so while following the procedures required in 91.213(d).

Right or wrong?


Wrong. Read it thoroughly Tom.


Sec. 91.213 - Inoperative instruments and equipment.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may take off an aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment installed unless the following conditions are met:

(1) An approved Minimum Equipment List exists for that aircraft.

(2) The aircraft has within it a letter of authorization, issued by the FAA Flight Standards district office having jurisdiction over the area in which the operator is located, authorizing operation of the aircraft under the Minimum Equipment List. The letter of authorization may be obtained by written request of the airworthiness certificate holder. The Minimum Equipment List and the letter of authorization constitute a supplemental type certificate for the aircraft.


Paragraph d exception essentially says if the equipment is not part of the type certificate for the aircraft (a sun visor is, it was built and installed by Cessna, and approved by the FAA through the type certification process), and it is placarded.

In other words, if you add a radar altimeter to a Cessna and it is inoperative, you can placard it and be on your way. If you do not placard it, you bust regs.

Again Tom, every piece of aircraft that is installed is required equipment on that aircraft. It can be deferred if you have an approved MEL or the inop equipment is approved by the FAA (Example - Go to FSDO, see an Ops Inspector, tell him your sun visor is broken but can't fix it before your flight, ask for a waiver, He writes it up for 30 day deferment). If you have an approved MEL for your Cessna, you don't need to see the FSDO. This is why the question asked, "Have you ever flown a 172 with an MEL?" is very relevant, amateur.

Since we know from experience Amateur Tom clearly likes to rant off into tangents since he is unable to debate the topic, let's get back to the topic.

The cockpit door sensor is most likely a "no-go" item according to 767Doctor/apathoid. If the sensor failed on previous flights, it would have been fixed. I tend to agree.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by R_Mackey]



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 05:07 AM
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Here is your moment of zen, Turbofan!







Yeahhh, what a retard I was to say that ADC have bellows, how silly of me!! I'm totally outed as like a poseur and stuff ZOMG!! Sheesh, will you ever learn to stop putting your foot in your mouth, Turbofan? Google will only get you so far, grasshopper.

Now where were we going with this discussion? You're insistence that the PA cannot lag because its like...a totally digital system man!


Oh and don't get your hopes up about the first paragraph in the first image. They are talking about TAT and AoA and air/ground sensors.



[edit on 30-11-2009 by 767doctor]

[edit on 30-11-2009 by 767doctor]



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 05:18 AM
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Uhhh...where is figure 11-6?

What YEAR was that manual printed?

Do you have anything that represents a 2001 757-200?

You know what's funny too? Your manual talks about SENSORS!


Anyway, please follow up like a good mechanic and supply the answers
to my question; most important #2, and #3.


P.S. Analog computer...hmmm.

Here's a link to a PDF that talks about SENSORS and the Collins ADC-3000
back in 2005. I'll see if I can track down more info on the early stages of
DIGITAL ADC's that used SENSORS to measure baro.



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 05:19 AM
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Originally posted by 767doctor
Now where were we going with this discussion? You're insistence that the PA cannot lag because its like...a totally digital system man!


Tom disagrees with your lag theory.


Originally posted by tomk52
It does not seem to me that the PA lags very much at all. I would have expected that.


Page 40.



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 05:20 AM
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Originally posted by turbofan
20 years before I was born?


By the way, I linked more than one ADC; did you look at all the links?

You don't need the bellows to read baro my 'friend'. Do you even know
the purpose of the bellows? Your buddy Tom talked about it a few pages
back. Maybe you should read up!

The pressure sensor doesn't need a bellows to read baro. I've already
proven that.

You better check the FAR's and make sure the ADC wasn't updated
along with many other items on passenger category airliners.

When you return make sure you scan the part of your 'bible' where it
says you're wrong about SENSORS.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by turbofan]



No, I'll stand by my previous statements.

After all, I wouldn't substitute my real experience for your google prowess. You see, I sign-off(read:certify) air data systems on the 757 and 767; by doing so, I put my job and livlihood on the line. I have to know certain things. One of them is that you can't supply too high a delta-P bewteen pitot and static because you can blow the bellows in the ADCs or Elevator Feel Computers. I've done it, and I won't make the same mistake again.

You, on the other hand, I'm glad you don't work on airplanes. You keep making the same mistakes here over and over again.

Nite kiddo.



Originally posted by turbofan
Uhhh...where is figure 11-6?

What YEAR was that manual printed?

Do you have anything that represents a 2001 757-200?

You know what's funny too? Your manual talks about SENSORS!


Anyway, please follow up like a good mechanic and supply the answers
to my question; most important #2, and #3.


P.S. Analog computer...hmmm.

Here's a link to a PDF that talks about SENSORS and the Collins ADC-3000
back in 2005. I'll see if I can track down more info on the early stages of
DIGITAL ADC's that used SENSORS to measure baro.


Fig 11-6 is the last image. You are looking at page number, scroll right. I'm adding 11-7 here:




Jesus effing Christ, you're still talking about an ADC not in use on the 757; one that was produced 22 years after its inception. Are you daft? And yes, sensors. There are lots of sensors and transducers in air data system, I've talked about them, repeatedly. I even correctly predicted you would misinterpret what I posted. That's what you do...

Oh and I already told you, I'd be cribbing the CMM on the ADC that actually does get used by the 757.

one more edit: note what they call the altitude sensor on the schematic: yup, a bellows. Thanks for playing.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by 767doctor]


[edit on 30-11-2009 by 767doctor]

[edit on 30-11-2009 by 767doctor]



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 05:31 AM
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Originally posted by turbofan
If Warren can't extract the data, it probably wasn't
polling!



Exaaaaactly!

If it's in the Data Frame Layout, but not showing up in the decode, it clearly wasn't a parameter American Airlines thought needed to be recorded. Clearly, American Airlines wants to know when their cockpit doors are open in flight, which is why it's being polled by the FDR. Perhaps the pilots know this and they disabled the sensor for previous flight? I have seen pilots disable many things, and then re-enable them after their flight, hit the erase button on the CVR, etc.


And yes, you can accuse Chic of doing this too. But then you are accusing a known pilot and victim of 9/11 of busting regs and being less than professional, not to mention pure speculation.

Unfortunately, many people here fail to understand why an Airline may want to record a parameter, yet the FAA does not require it. FDR's are not used solely for "safety of fight" reasons. FDR's and CVR's are pulled all the time for disciplinary actions, union requests, the list goes on.

Being that American has the moniker "Sky Nazi's" among those in the industry, I can easily understand why American would want to record the cockpit door sensor. I believe they were one of the first to support the use of camera's in the cockpit, ie "The Fish Bowl". That got squashed pretty quick though.

Ask 767Doctor, he'll tell ya.


[edit on 30-11-2009 by R_Mackey]



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 05:46 AM
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Jay - based in Atlanta for Delta,

Should you be posting pages from a Delta manual on a public forum?



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 05:49 AM
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Originally posted by R_Mackey
Jay - based in Atlanta for Delta,

Should you be posting pages from a Delta manual on a public forum?



Probably not, why? You planning on dimeing on me? Good luck with that.



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 05:54 AM
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Originally posted by 767doctor

Originally posted by R_Mackey
Jay - based in Atlanta for Delta,

Should you be posting pages from a Delta manual on a public forum?



Probably not, why? You planning on dimeing on me? Good luck with that.


lol, "dimeing on you"?. You crack me up Jay...


No, I'm just busting your chops.

It's fun to watch TF twist you up like a Lomcevak.




posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 06:07 AM
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daft? This coming from the guy that forgot to post the easy answers to
my questions? When are you going to show me the updated device
used in passenger category aircraft aroudn 2001?

Sure, computers had vacuum tubes and were the size of cars back in the day.

Let's see some current stuff "Doc"


P.S. What do you call those things on your stereo system that produce sound?

[edit on 30-11-2009 by turbofan]



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by R_Mackey
Unfortunately, many people here fail to understand why an Airline may want to record a parameter, yet the FAA does not require it. FDR's are not used solely for "safety of fight" reasons. FDR's and CVR's are pulled all the time for disciplinary actions, union requests, the list goes on.


I'd like to expand on the above a bit more.

18, 22, 57, or 88 parameters (depending on date of manufacture and equipment) were required by the FAA to be recorded in the 1997 Rule Change, to be completed on Boeing and Douglas aircraft by Aug 2001.

360 parameters are listed under "Parameters Validated" in the NTSB pdf.

This doesn't include the highly touted (for purpose of those who support the govt story) Radar Altitude, yet Radar altitude is required by the FAA.

So, you can clearly see there are an enormous amount of parameters recorded above and beyond what the FAA requires.

In summary, if it's in the data, it was polled and recorded. Period.

It makes absolutely no sense to record a parameter which would be showing you a false read.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by R_Mackey]



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 06:47 AM
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Originally posted by R_Mackey

Originally posted by tomk52
You did NOT say "you can't take off with a broken seat belts".
etc.

You DID say (and I quote to be specific):

Originally posted by R_Mackey
In other words, if you don't have an approved MEL, you cannot fly with so much as an overhead sun visor broken (if installed) unless approved by the FAA. If you have done so in your little Cessna, you busted regs.


And I say that you are wrong. I say that I can take off with a broken visor. Or several other possible pieces of equipment. As long as I did so while following the procedures required in 91.213(d).

Right or wrong?


Wrong. Read it thoroughly Tom.

[... misdirection, misdirection, words, words, misdirecting words ...]

In other words, if you add a radar altimeter to a Cessna and it is inoperative, you can placard it and be on your way.



Thank you.

You could have saved a bunch of arm-waving by just saying, "Yes, there are some situations that you can take off with broken equipment. As long as you follow 213(d) requirements."

TomK

PS. For a night flight from San Diego to Catalina, I find zero change that the FAA would disagree with my interpretation that the visor is "non-essential for safe flight", can be placarded, and my flight can continue WITHOUT breaking regs.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by tomk52]



posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 07:00 AM
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Wrong again Tom.

I did say it in every sentence I typed that it "can be deferred". You just ignored it.

you also missed the "gotcha!" in 91.213d


An aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment as provided in paragraph (d) of this section is considered to be in a properly altered condition acceptable to the Administrator.


What you determine to be functional may not be what the FAA determines to be acceptable. This is why you see the FSDO, amateur.

Again, my statement holds true. If it is installed on the aircraft, it is required equipment, but can be deferred. I know your ego thinks you can determine what is acceptable, but you would be wrong, and your ticket will pay the price of your ego.

For the next lesson, I will have to start charging by the hour.


By the way, there are many reasons to use a visor at night. Matter of fact, it is more pertinent to safety of flight to have a visor at night than during the day. Something with rods and cones and bright lights perhaps? I don't expect an amateur to understand though.


[edit on 30-11-2009 by R_Mackey]



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