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The three fallacies that have driven the war in Afghanistan

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posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 07:10 AM
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The case for escalating the war is based on premises that turn to dust on inspection


Is Barack Obama about to drive his Presidency into a bloody ditch strewn with corpses? The President is expected any day now to announce his decision about the future of the war in Afghanistan. He knows US and British troops have now been stationed in the hell-mouth of Helmand longer than the First and Second World Wars combined – yet the mutterings from the marble halls of Washington DC suggest he may order a troop escalation.




Argument One: We need to deprive al-Qa'ida of military bases in Afghanistan, or they will use them to plot attacks against us, and we will face 9/11 redux.


However......


In fact, virtually all the jihadi attacks against Western countries have been planned in those Western countries themselves, and required extremely limited technological capabilities or training.



Argument Two: By staying, we are significantly improving Afghan human rights, especially for women. This, for me, is the meatiest argument – and the most depressing.


However......


"Your governments have replaced the fundamentalist rule of the Taliban with another fundamentalist regime of warlords." "The situation now is as catastrophic as it was under the Taliban for women,"




Argument Three: If we withdraw, it will be a great victory for al-Qa'ida. Re-energised, they will surge out across the world.


However......


In fact, in November 2004, Osama bin Laden bragged to his followers: "All that we have to do is to send two mujahedeen [jihadi fighters] to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written "al-Qa'ida" in order to make generals race there, and we cause America to suffer human, economic and political losses – without their achieving anything of note!" These wars will, he said, boost al-Qa'ida recruitment across the world, and in time "bankrupt America". They walked right into his trap.



He can explain – with his tongue dipped in amazing eloquence – that trying to defeat al-Qa'ida with hundreds of thousands of occupying troops and Predator jets is like trying to treat cancer with a blowtorch. Now, that really would deserve a Nobel Peace Prize.


www.independent.co.uk... l

The above are extracts from an article written by Johann Hari about the 'war' in Afghanistan.

It still dumbfounds me that this 'war' is ongoing. Not only that, but there is now talk of troop escalation.

Didn't the world learn anything from Vietnam? How can we be fooled again?

I did a thread not long ago about The Forgotten Casualties Of War because i could see what happened to Veterans in Vietnam happening again. Ignored. Neglected. Forgotten.

This is especially relevant in light of Obamas recent Nobel 'Peace' Prize, what a joke that was!

History repeats......and it makes me sick!

Peace.




posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 07:23 AM
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reply to post by LiveForever8
 


They hated me for pointing out these fallacies in the past. Al-Qaeda exists because of American involvement in internal affairs of other countries. No one would be fighting if they didn't have a reason to fight. But some believe that the fanatics are fighting because they want to take over the world which is... well I can't even comment on that. It is just not true..

They just need religion to drive them because they have no other means of moral support.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by oozyism]



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 08:08 AM
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Another liberal apologist for terrorists who needs a history lesson I see. The Taliban provided a safe haven for terrorists who are have only one goal, to kill Americans. They provided training camps and a semi-legitimate state government whose only purpose was to support those goals. As a result thousands of Americans died on 9-11 -- you do remember that don't you?

What happens if we cut and run is that we allow another safe haven to be set up under the protection of a rogue government whose goal is to kill Americans. The only problem so far is that the wimps who run our government will not take the necessary steps to end the threat once and for all, both militarily and politically.



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 08:13 AM
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Originally posted by superrat
Another liberal apologist for terrorists who needs a history lesson I see. The Taliban provided a safe haven for terrorists who are have only one goal, to kill Americans. They provided training camps and a semi-legitimate state government whose only purpose was to support those goals. As a result thousands of Americans died on 9-11 -- you do remember that don't you?

What happens if we cut and run is that we allow another safe haven to be set up under the protection of a rogue government whose goal is to kill Americans. The only problem so far is that the wimps who run our government will not take the necessary steps to end the threat once and for all, both militarily and politically.


Sure they did, don't hesitate to read this thread. It is made for individuals like you. "foul me once, shame on you, foul me twice, shame on me".

I will just post some info from that thread: Read the whole thing:

Interview with Osama
Osama denies involvement:

UMMAT: You have been accused of involvement in the attacks in New York and Washington. What do you want to say about this? If you are not involved, who might be?




I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people of other faiths, particularly the followers of Islam. All that is going on in Palestine for the last 11 months is sufficient to call the wrath of God upon the United States and Israel. There is also a warning for those Muslim countries, which witnessed all these as a silent spectator. What had earlier been done to the innocent people of Iraq, Chechnya and Bosnia? Only one conclusion could be derived from the indifference of the United States and the West to these acts of terror and the patronage of the tyrants by these powers that America is an anti-Islamic power and it is patronizing the anti-Islamic forces. Its friendship with the Muslim countries is just a show, rather deceit. By enticing or intimidating these countries, the United States is forcing them to play a role of its choice. Put a glance all around and you will see that the slaves of the United States are either rulers or enemies of Muslims.



America gives ultimatum

After the 11 September attacks and the PENTTBOM investigation, the United States delivered this ultimatum to the Taliban:

1. Deliver to the US all of the leaders of Al-Qaeda;
2. Release all imprisoned foreign nationals;
3. Close immediately every terrorist training camp;
4. Hand over every terrorist and their supporters to appropriate authorities;
5. Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps for inspection.


Source

Response to the Ultimatum by Taliban:

On 21 September 2001, the Taliban responded to the ultimatum, promising that if the United States could bring evidence that bin Laden was guilty, they would hand him over, stating there was no evidence in their possession linking him to the 11 September attacks.


Source

Beliefs


it is believed that the Taliban covertly offered to turn bin Laden over to Pakistan for trial in an international tribunal that operated according to Islamic Sharia law, but Pakistan refused the offer.


Source

Taliban once again trying to deal with the US

On 7 October 2001, before the onset of military operations, the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan offered to "detain bin Laden and try him under Islamic law" if the United States made a formal request and presented the Taliban with evidence.


Source

America arrogantly say no


This counter offer was immediately rejected by the U.S. as insufficient.


.....

there is more, go to the thread...

[edit on 21-10-2009 by oozyism]



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 08:42 AM
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Originally posted by superrat
Another liberal apologist for terrorists who needs a history lesson I see. The Taliban provided a safe haven for terrorists who are have only one goal, to kill Americans.

You're a joke. You know who created the extremists Talibans? The US, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan when they built thousands (12.500) of madrassas in Pakistan, teaching young boys for 10 years, age 6 to 16, only about the Koran. And the hardcore interpretation of it so they would not adopt communism, but instead adopt hardcore islamism. Then later they would be tool of oppression used by Pakistan and tools of war against the Soviet Union for the US.

And you know what? Those madressas are still up and running today. They learn how america and israel are evil and must be destroyed. They learn that the earth is flat and that women have no rights. They are like hardcore, but even more, evangelists in the US. No rational thought possible. And who created them? The US by funding those schools with US department of education money.

Want to ``solve`` the problem of insurgents in Pakistan? Change the Pakistani government, reform the madrassas.



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 09:07 AM
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U.S. went there to get their hands on that drug money....it's SO obvious!



WHY didn't we learn ANYTHING from the Soviet occupation????



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 09:07 AM
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reply to post by Vitchilo
 


Vitchilo I get your point but I believe you are over exaggerating in the beliefs of Muslims, even the hard core fanatic don't believe in your explanation of what they believe. Or the media's explanation I don't know.... Anyways there is room for discussion in regards if you are keen.



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by LiveForever8
 


They hated me for pointing out these fallacies in the past. Al-Qaeda exists because of American involvement in internal affairs of other countries. No one would be fighting if they didn't have a reason to fight. But some believe that the fanatics are fighting because they want to take over the world which is... well I can't even comment on that. It is just not true..

They just need religion to drive them because they have no other means of moral support.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by oozyism]


they attacked inside pakistan, even when that government gave them a safe haven in the swat valley. that was muslim on muslim, and pakistani forces in the thousands had to be use to stop them. that is not a fallacy, and i think you should reacess you position, as it pertains to the intentions of Al-Qeada.



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by Signals
U.S. went there to get their hands on that drug money....it's SO obvious!



WHY didn't we learn ANYTHING from the Soviet occupation????


because our foreign policy and at times our military is used for big business interests. oil and drugs in afghanistan drives our involvement. this has been happening for decades.

there are documents that show in in the 20's and 30's, there was interest by western nations, in the oil fields off the coast of vietnam. there is even a document by president herbert hoover that alludes to this fact.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by jimmyx]



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by jimmyx


they attacked inside pakistan, even when that government gave them a safe haven in the swat valley. that was muslim on muslim, and pakistani forces in the thousands had to be use to stop them. that is not a fallacy, and i think you should reacess you position, as it pertains to the intentions of Al-Qeada.


destabilization of Pakistan and Afghanistan

I guess you haven't heard it before, 'you are either with us or against us'.


Pakistan is destabilized because of idiotic American policies, the Pakistani government was forced to fight its own people.
 

More reading:

Pakistan getting paid to fight its own people

you are either with us or against us

 


I guess you don't know Pakistan does what America asks it to do
if it was an independent nation it would attack America for sending drones and killing innocent Pakistanis..

More reading:
60 drone hits kill 14 al-Qaeda men, 687 civilians

 


Now let's have a sit and have a think, Pakistan has always been doing Americas dirty work, what does that mean? Puppet regimes? Have you heard of it? Remember the Soviets? Pakistan was the one who was giving foreign money & weapons to the Mujaheddin, exactly what America wanted. When the Mujaheddin changed sides, Pakistan turned against them? Why? Because it is an American puppet state, it has been in that pose for a long time now....



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 10:13 AM
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Obama says something about overprotectivity of their own personel by the countries supporting USA in Afghanistan...It seems the best solution will be to draw some Talibans to his forces- for them suicide is no problem...
I imagine american army oficers negotiating with the taliban clane elders how much costs this month one suicidal bomber...
It seems that all the make-believe "stabilisation" and "freedom-human-rights" so favorite words of GW Bush are going into oblivion.
Any improvment of Afghan living??? I doubt it.
It reminds me of the 16-17 centuries Kazak Wars of Polish Kingdom, that among the others were responsable for the decline of the polish military strenght(along with our innate anarchy)

In that epoque Imperial Russia of the Tzars was still the melody of the future, and in the steps of todays Ukraine there was strange multinational melangee known as Kazaks- robbers and formidable, wild warriors. They served in the wars against the Otoman Turks, Russians, Tatars...or the other Kazaks...
When not happy with they pay, or with the privileges given by the King they often rebelled...Looking at whats going on in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. I think of the coming end...the Oil and Opium factor makes the story even more interesting...
"Democracy&Human-rights" yeah...

[edit on 21-10-2009 by ZenOnKwalsky]



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 10:36 AM
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Afghanistan is merely another war for resources plain and simple.
Bushes wanted more than their share of the loot derived from the pipeline so they declared war on them. Them being Osama and the Taliban.


Don't believe me ? Simply Google Taliban and Texas.

"Taliban in Texas for talks on gas pipeline" - BBC 1997


The war in Afghanistan is about GW's falling out with his business partners....former partners that is. Osama and the Taliban.
Osama was paid to organize the muhjahadin and using CIA provided weaponry oust the Soviets clearng the path for UNOCAL to enter Afghanistan and build the OIL pipeline. and later to work as the intermediary and negotiations with the Taliban. Thats why John O'neil former deputy director of the FBI and head of the terror investigation was eliminated on 9/11 after leaving the FBI. He knew too much about this business relationship.


The war in Iraq was to oust Bush Senior's business partner...Saddam Hussein. Saddam was placed in this position to follow the directive of the US AND to fight IRAN for their oil and resources. The US were done with him when he FAILED to take over Iran using the WMD's he'd been provided by the US and began cheating on the OIL for food program which is what Enron was reliant upon for their profits as well as getting too big for his britches so to speak. Notice how Saddam was silenced preventing him from ever only so he couldn't reveal his side of the story implicating Bush senior in the situation.

Read the book: Confessions of an Economic Hitman

Written by former CIA operative describes how our system of Corporate Democracy or " Corptocracy" really works.
In a nutshell:

1.) Overthrow existing regime/government
2.) Install puppet govt.
3.) Rebuild infrastructure funneling billions to US Corporations
4.) Saddle the government in debt
5.) Demand repayment in natural resources

Now look at whats recently going on in Afghanistan with Kharzai and the elections fraud.


And for you that believe the Zionist controlled MSM lie on why we're there and how those evil turban wearing muslims want to kill all of us Americans....Look at the FBI website and Osama is NOT charged with 9/11.

Additionally ...
The WTC was failing structurally due to corrosive effects of salt water on it's steel structure and needed to be demolished anyway....


www.hereinreality.com...



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by oozyism
Interview with Osama
Osama denies involvement:

UMMAT: You have been accused of involvement in the attacks in New York and Washington. What do you want to say about this? If you are not involved, who might be?


I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States.


You'll note that Usama's listing on the FBI's 10 most wanted list cites no mention of 9/11:

USAMA BIN LADEN IS WANTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUGUST 7, 1998, BOMBINGS OF THE UNITED STATES EMBASSIES IN DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA, AND NAIROBI, KENYA. THESE ATTACKS KILLED OVER 200 PEOPLE. IN ADDITION, BIN LADEN IS A SUSPECT IN OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. www.fbi.gov...


What does that tell us?



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by superrat
Another liberal apologist for terrorists who needs a history lesson I see. The Taliban provided a safe haven for terrorists who are have only one goal, to kill Americans. They provided training camps and a semi-legitimate state government whose only purpose was to support those goals. As a result thousands of Americans died on 9-11 -- you do remember that don't you?

What happens if we cut and run is that we allow another safe haven to be set up under the protection of a rogue government whose goal is to kill Americans. The only problem so far is that the wimps who run our government will not take the necessary steps to end the threat once and for all, both militarily and politically.


yes no-one can forget 911 .. american or not .. however only an american would still use it as a valid reason for trying to crush the bogey man. .. and invading a country that all data said held the second largest oil reserves on the planet.
iraq holding the planets 3rd largest reserves.

must of been a real p1sser when it all turned out to be low grade crude and not as plentiful as first thought.

the rest of the world have watched 911 over and over and they know aswell as millions of americans that your own government dropped those towers killing thousands without a hint of concience.
the same mindset as was responsible for the murder of these brave souls .. whatreallyhappened.com...

your ignorance does you credit your government needs you.





[edit on 21-10-2009 by manxman2]



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by Signals
U.S. went there to get their hands on that drug money....it's SO obvious!



WHY didn't we learn ANYTHING from the Soviet occupation????


you mean after you invaded afghanistans opium production went from 0% of the worlds supply to nearly 90% of world supply 4000+ metric tons to be more accurate.

c.i.a. moved their whole operation out of columbia to afghanistan.
using rendition as their means of distribution and the russian mafia along with the indian security agency on the understanding that the 700 billion in illegal funds are laundered thru wall str.

but dont woprry most americans dont know that and they dont want to know just as long as it keeps filtering its way down to them in various ways to make their lives more comfortable.
matters not that the same drugs have turned some of their streets into the most dangerous on the planet .. they ignore that part of the city just as they ignore the rest of the planet.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by manxman2]



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by superrat
 

It was the CIA who started, trained, and funded Al CIAda. YOU need the history lesson, not the OP. They exist ONLY BECAUSE AMERICA NURTURED THEM ALONG WITH GUNS AND MONEY AND TRAINING.

Who knew they would make a convenient scapegoat later on? Let us ask that question and the answer will lead us to the real criminals who are enemies of the Americans who love peace and truth.

I have no numbers to support this, but I believe more terrorists have walked into the United States across the southern border, than have been captured in Afghanistan. If the govt. is serious about the "war on terror", they would make border security a much higher priority.

[edit on 10-21-2009 by groingrinder]



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by nh_ee
 


If I could rain a thousand stars upon you, I would. But the system only let me give you one.


Five stars, three cheers, and two thumbs up. Stand tall and be proud!



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by Vitchilo

You're a joke. You know who created the extremists Talibans? The US, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan when they built thousands (12.500) of madrassas in Pakistan, teaching young boys for 10 years, age 6 to 16, only about the Koran. And the hardcore interpretation of it so they would not adopt communism, but instead adopt hardcore islamism. Then later they would be tool of oppression used by Pakistan and tools of war against the Soviet Union for the US.

And you know what? Those madressas are still up and running today. They learn how america and israel are evil and must be destroyed. They learn that the earth is flat and that women have no rights. They are like hardcore, but even more, evangelists in the US. No rational thought possible. And who created them? The US by funding those schools with US department of education money.

Want to ``solve`` the problem of insurgents in Pakistan? Change the Pakistani government, reform the madrassas.


Of course, everything is the fault of the USA, at least in the liberal world view. If only the USA would just go away, the whole world would be at peace and everyone would live in harmony. Bull!

You've got a bunch of fanatics who believe the world is flat, women have no rights (excuse me. just how did Americans convince them of that since we are to blame for it all?) and who have some twisted view that the US is satanic. We are talking about a bunch of total fanatics who hate us because of our freedoms and who are afraid if their own people get a taste of what we have, they will lose their control over their pathetic little kingdoms.

The US is the bogeyman they have drummed up to try and keep their own people from knowing how crappy life is in those Islamic republics. The only thing we have done is come to their aid when they needed it -- like when the USSR invaded Afghanistan. Oh but I forgot, the USSR is communist so that made it okay for them to do it.



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by superrat
We are talking about a bunch of total fanatics who hate us because of our freedoms ...


I really didn't expect to find anyone who'd actually fallen for that line.


They hate us because we won't leave them alone.

And if you feel so bad for their women, how about the women in Saudi Arabia...oh wait...the Saudis are the good guys. Never mind, then.



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 02:04 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


I'm not saying it's the Muslims that are bad, but the indoctrination and the brainwashing of them for 10 years non-stop. And they beliefs are extremists since they take the Koran literally... anyone taking the bible literally is nuts IMO...so are those who take the Koran literally.

They read a centuries old book and take it as fact. They know it by heart, and by heart, I mean they can recite all of it's 6200 verses. They are called Talibs... does that sound a bell?

I have nothing against Muslims in generals, I know a few here in Canada and they are nice people, they just pray to another god, just like Hindus or Jews, I don't care.

Seriously, superrat, are you 13 years old? Because you just spout Bush's propaganda words without any thought. On ATS, a lot of us have university education, so we know what is propaganda or not, and you sir, can't see a damn thing.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by Vitchilo]




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