An attack on America by Europe

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
I just wanted to respond to the comment of Americans not having baggage. Why on earth do you celibate the 4th of July if you have no baggage, or if you have left all your baggage behind!

Just celebrating the dumping of "the crown"=Baggage in itself.


No, not all baggage. I've never said all baggage. I was referring to many of the old worlds divisive traditions, language and cultural barriers that are still present. I do appreciate your response.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


As an Englishman, living in mainland Europe at the moment, I tend to agree with what you are saying.I'm pretty tired of this BS. From my experience, this nonsense blame game stems from the fact that not many Europeans have been to America.

I have worked with American Soldiers and Marines as a Brit Soldier both in America and on Active Duty in Theater. I have found these men of exceptional calibre on all occasions. They think we are crazy and we think they are barking mad. But we are brothers.

I have also done a road trip from Jasper in Canada to Las Vegas. Along the way, I met the most positive people on earth. Every last one. When our
crappy camper van broke down in the middle of nowhere the local mechanic fabricated the part needed. Fabricated. MacGuyver like. Out of thin air.

Sure America isn't perfect, but where is?

On my wife's birthday one year, I bought some champagne and put it behind the bar before she got to the pub. She was rehearsing a play with an all female cast and when they came in I got the champers and served 15 lovely ladies. Men in the pub were saying some real #ty things about this scene.

Then a huge American guy stands up and says, 'Get that man a beer, he knows how to handle himself.' We have been friends ever since.

All of our governments are trash. They don't reflect us. We all have blood on our hands, we are all hurting. Let's get together and rejoice in our differences and be thankful for them. Europeans could do with a bit of 'can do' attitude IMO.

Nice thread, mate. The Tomato Ambassador.

reply to post by benoni


That's what I thought. All BS bone deep.

Standard of living?

Find out about the Marshall plan for starters. And then examine the US investment in other nations over the decades since.

It's like discussing topics with kindergartners.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Thanks for the clarification, I made the fatal error of assumption. I do have similar discussions with my family in the US and it took a while to work out that we do not see eye to eye because of how we perceive things like patriotism, it is almost as tho we speak a different language at times, and hence make mistakes.

For me the last night of the proms is one of my patriotic outlets to flag waving and singing patriotic songs with tens of thousands of other voices like mine, which is pretty cool, yet it was never something I considered patriotic, while my relatives didn't know we did that so assumed there is no patriotic outlet, and I never made the leap that it was a patriotic outlet until we bumped heads and had lots of misunderstandings, so the old adage you don't know what you don't know springs to mind.

This year was pretty cool as we had an American Conductor David Robertson :-) land of hope and Glory LNotP 2009 I guess since it is so inclusive I never assumed it was patriotic, just a fun night out, if you watch the vid, there are even a number of American flags flying ;-) and it's a fun enthusiastic night ending in Auld Langs Syne which is pretty brilliant, but until the connection between patriotism and a fun night out was made I was talking on different pages to my relatives.. which I am not sure but feel has happened on this thread.

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Exactly. Patriotism is a different concept in Britain than America (I can't speak for the rest of europe)

We don't walk round in t-shirts with the union jack on it, or have much of a garden flagpole culture, but that doesn't mean we're not patriotic. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

We are a cynical people. Sarcasm is our language. Not to mention the british reserve. We do things differently.

I am immensely proud of Britain (and England). But i chose not to go around advertising how proud i am, or shouting about it un-necessarily.

I'd rather actively enjoy my country. I go for long walks into our frankly unparalleled countryside. I try and visit a new town as often as i can. I'll often take the scenic route home to enjoy the views of our green and pleasant land.

I am proud of Shakespeare, the NHS, Keats, Wordsworth, Morrissey, The Clash, Ian Botham, Nye Bevan, William Tyndale, Edward Elgar, Oliver Cromwell, the '96 England Football team, Birmingham City FC, black humour. The pubs. The food. Even the weather.

But i choose to celebrate this quietly, and without fuss. It's the British way and our cultural differences are what make the world a fascinating place.

As i said in a previous thread, we wave our flags at the football, at the cricket and at the Proms, and then we fold them up and put them away again. It's just how we are. It's almost as if, as a nation, we feel we don't need to prove anything to anyone. We are still patriotic, we just quantify it differently. American patriotism is different to British patriotism. It's still patriotism though.

By the way, absolutely love the 2009 Proms version of Land of Hope and Glory. Gets me every time. Jerusalem is even better.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


Well, Merriman, it's difficult at times to determine where the EU stops and European countries begin. A common currency, binding treaties that subordinate national interests, an engine to blend out the differences between nations, meetings behind closed doors, deferring individual national interests to decisions made in meetings in Brussels, and led by the nose by the French.

Looks more and more like one big French colony.

We HELPED in WWII?

Let's see. Britain was the only independent still standing, and even Britain was on the ropes and teetering because of the Wolfpacks. Thank God for the brave and determined British Air Force.

To say the US "helped" is like saying the engine and wings "help" an airplane fly.

So had the Americans stayed home, Britain, Canada, and the other Commonwealth nations would have prvailed? Is that what you're suggesting?

And just how were they even going to GET to the front? And with WHAT in their hands?

So Britain was going to invade and take on the Third Reich? Any idea how? Any?

I mean, the entire continental Europe was German. All of it.

Let's see. In the darkest days, we loaned critical money and ships to the sole survivor of Europe, Britain, to buy food, supplies, and weapons.

During the entire war we financed your war effort, while piling on men, supplies, fuel, weapons, trucks, steel, coal, shipping, food, and the basics of life as the world had never seen before.

Come to think of it, you still had a bit of attitude about that. After all, the American soldiers were "overpaid, oversexed, and over here."

Well. Isn't that a shame.

German spies saw the massive American buildup though. And that is what bled the Germans from critical supply and manpower from being able to concentrate on the Russian front.

No. I'll tell you exactly what the problem is.

Every had anyone desperate for help and money and they come to you? Note how they were glad at the moment they got it, but then hate you for being the one they feel beholding to?

They hate for for loaning them the money, and they hate you because they're in your debt?

They hate you for your help. They resent the fact that they even needed the help.

And that, friends, is the core of the European problem with Americans.

This explains that minutes after the war was won, France got their butts up on their shoulders and became unmitigated assholes.

It was the French shame of their ass-kicking and collaborators that they tried to cover up and conceal by replacing that shame with a contrived arrogance.

We American understand a hell of a lot more than we're given credit for.

Oh yes, America has killed lots and lots of folks. But since our greatest killing was done pulling your bacon out of the fire, it was perfectly alright then, huh?

In the military, I earned my Canadian jump wings, I've served in limited roles with British military, and a number of Australian folks, Irish to be certain, and Scots I could barely understand.

Good men, all.

But some of the candiass civilians who appear to deem themselves more erudite and lettered are some of the most full-of-crap folks I've ever encountered.

The problem with stupid?

They don't see it in themselves.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


You said, "- and yet here we seem to be at fault for wanting to bridge these supposed divides. What the #? "

Friend, you must realize a certain portion, if not the majority of Americans, do not want to bridge any divides. Oh yeah they'll say they want to, but ask them how to move forward and you'll see they NEVER offer a viable solution to achieve progress. They'll resort to the "get over it" mantra I constantly see on this board, or the new one, "You end racism by ending racism" which is absolute comedy and BTW, was also posted here on this site. Now if you tell them one of the steps of moving forward is to stop talking and to start listening, you'll hear that you're "speaking like a woman"(which also has been stated on this board) for even suggesting that the failure to listen vastly contributes to the problem. Moreover, if you even attempt to show these Americans that they benefit directly or indirectly as a result of the hardships of others, they will call you a racist, slander your name, encourage others to do it, star and flag each other after they do it, and never take a step forward to resolving anything. Moreover, they’ll cite examples in their lives, and show you a “woe is me” scenario in hopes of somehow disproving the fact that they do benefit from the atrocities mentioned.

You're dealing with a group of individuals with warped ideologies and a reliance on false comfort zones. In fact, the only time they seem to stand up and trumpet any 'righteous cause', and I use that term very loosely, is when their comfort zones are on the chopping block. When that happens, you'll see them hooping and hollering about how this is bad, who this is designed to harm that, how people need to revolt against the government, how they aren't responsible for that. However, those like yourself and the OP, who are consistent in their thinking and deed, will look at American foreign policy, the Eurocentric values most Americans cling to (even though they slam Europeans), the denial of privilege and come to the logical conclusion that these people are hypocrites, murderers, covert and blind racists (two different things), rapists, thieves, and outright sinister. They'll hide all of this under the veil of nationalism or patriotism, but those who don't have blinders on can see it for what it is.

For a website who’s motto is to “deny ignorance”, I see a whole lot of denial, but none of it having to do with ignorance.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by GypsK

 

One I am 50% Cherokee and 50% Irish I diddnt do anything. As well as 300 Million Americans who were not alove at that time period. Also 100 Million Americans Ansectory came to America from 1840-1920 I dont think they had anything to do with it... as well as there are what 50 Million Blacks 40 Million Hispanics, not to mention roughly 35 Million Others... So whats your point?

Also the 9-11 thing, yes in the 80s the CIA backed Bin Laden against the Soviets, Bin Laden got pissed when Saudi Arabia allowed for US forces to Throw Saddam out of Kuwait. Hence the attacks on America since that day.. No 9-11 was not an Inside Job the goverment is to stupid to carry off that attack.

I will blame Europe for the Americas past woes.... Being that Europe was in Control from 1492-to 1776 in North America... So dont pin your nations faults on ours.

[edit on 20-10-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]

The post above highlights perfectly why this is such a stupid rediculous thread, why so many stars?

its retarded.

Do you not see the crazy contradictions your making? not to mention your double standards?

reply to post by dooper


Hi Dooper,

I hope you don't mind if I jump in and respond to a little of what you said :-) the one aspect I see that we (in Britain) messed up on, was recruiting troops from within the other nations of the Empire... considering the size of the Empire and the number of troops that were raised there is a large disparity.. I guess in a similar way that the US under utilised African-American troops.. It seems bizarre that we missed that opportunity, but we did.

I do wonder how differently this would have all been had Britain and the US taken that route and utilised all the potential troops and resources available.. but again we didn't.

However it certainly may have been a potential avenue for the Empire had the US not joined.. yet I doubt they would have gone down that route even in the worst of situations.

I guess (and I am only guessing) that ultimately Britain may have had to sue for peace, especially if faced by a Germany with the bomb.. my chain of thought is that if the Reich had the bomb, then who could stand up to them, and a resource Rich country like the US might have been high on the list of must have countries once Britain had sued for peace.. Personally I feel the US would have been vulnerable to a Nuclear Nazi regime in that scenario.... But fortunately that scenario only exists in my head. again this is only my guestimation of what may have happened.

You mention the amount of supplies sent over from the US, I think one of the difficult things for Britain at that time was having to feed, clothe, house and arm the European forces that had taken refuge within these Isles.. Not to mention feeding and housing all the refugees that had fled here, I am sure they were all deeply grateful for the food, weapons and materials sent over from the US, even if it was us Brits who ended up paying for it.. regardless I still think it worthwhile, but no matter what, we would never have been able to feed so many visitors, especially considering a large portion of the civilian population had to be evacuated and again needing housing and food.. It was a tough time all round I guess.

I always think George Orwells England Your England is a good read, very eye opening since he sums up Britain as bombs were falling, the character, culture and how people felt at the time.. even honestly dealing with the Chamberlain moment.

I would honestly read it, and perhaps you will find some of what you speak of in there.. IMHO It should be compulsory reading for all our MPs... But hey that is another story..

Anyway, hope you don't mind the intrusion.

Regards.

reply to post by EMPIRE


Spot on EMPIRE!

IMO, i think that's where things get...messy. Unless my history is wrong (probably) i don't think any other nation in the world that can compete side by side with America has the same past as we do.

Manifest Destiny anyone? That's how the power base was setup to be run in this country, on the backs of others...from sharecropping to credit. It's not about big business, it's about doing the least amount of work possible while maximizing profits, to the max!

I have personally talked to black folks that have traveled to Europe. You don't find it funny that the Europeans outlawed slavery before America, particularly the British? You don't find it funny that Britain has the one largest concentration of black (africans and africans decent) people with degrees?

Naw chief the problem ain't Europe...it's America and the hypocrisy that built it's own foundation. What we see know is it's accumulation. Karma is a mother**** and this country as a whole is just getting it's cumupins.

You reap what you sow

reply to post by maintainright


You just highlighted the problem dun dun.

Flag for you chief and i would applaud you as well if it was in my power.

reply to post by nenothtu


stan in near and middle eastern languages merely means "land of" there are only 7 countries that have istan or stan at the end.

for pakistan it means "land of the pure"

why is this so interesting?

It's like finding out that shi shi ni means thanks in chinese. lol

Originally posted by EMPIRE
reply to post by Merriman Weir

You said, "- and yet here we seem to be at fault for wanting to bridge these supposed divides. What the #? "

Friend, you must realize a certain portion, if not the majority of Americans, do not want to bridge any divides. Oh yeah they'll say they want to, but ask them how to move forward and you'll see they NEVER offer a viable solution to achieve progress.

Friend let me ask you a question. When was the last time you were born or raised here? How would you know us any better than we know ourselves? Oh Yeah let me guess you've seen some stuff on TV or in the movies. No wait let me guess you watched some MSM news report on racism or Social equality? Nobody ever said we were not divided. Hell that's the way we should be.

However those divisions disappear when it matters.

They'll resort to the "get over it" mantra I constantly see on this board, or the new one, "You end racism by ending racism" which is absolute comedy and BTW, was also posted here on this site.

What part of get over it can't you get over? Oh yeah you can't that's why you feel the need to rant. Well if Bush and now Obama can't make us change our minds what makes you think you can persuade us? You can't

so Get over it!

Now if you tell them one of the steps of moving forward is to stop talking and to start listening, you'll hear that you're "speaking like a woman"(which also has been stated on this board) for even suggesting that the failure to listen vastly contributes to the problem. Moreover, if you even attempt to show these Americans that they benefit directly or indirectly as a result of the hardships of others, they will call you a racist, slander your name, encourage others to do it, star and flag each other after they do it, and never take a step forward to resolving anything.

Listen to whom? You? Why would we want to? Let me ask you a question. Would you listen to us on how to better the situation where you live? I highly doubt you would. Unlike you I wont use a woman's voice. I'm a man and I've said how I feel.

Moreover, they’ll cite examples in their lives, and show you a “woe is me” scenario in hopes of somehow disproving the fact that they do benefit from the atrocities mentioned.

We bitch, moan and sometimes come to blows over our differences. Is this bad? Or just an example of how we do things here.

You're dealing with a group of individuals with warped ideologies and a reliance on false comfort zones. In fact, the only time they seem to stand up and trumpet any 'righteous cause', and I use that term very loosely, is when their comfort zones are on the chopping block.

Well that's your opinion. I'm pretty sure if we were discussing your country we could find all kinds of things to scrutinize. Which by the way what is your country? Shall we go through it's past and present with a fine toothed comb as well. I'm sure the readers would love to hear a similar dissection.

When that happens, you'll see them hooping and hollering about how this is bad, who this is designed to harm that, how people need to revolt against the government, how they aren't responsible for that. However, those like yourself and the OP, who are consistent in their thinking and deed, will look at American foreign policy, the Eurocentric values most Americans cling to (even though they slam Europeans),

I haven't met too many Americans that would call themselves "Eurocentric" especially not a New Yorker or a Texan! As far as slamming Europeans, are you blind or just in denial? When you pull your head out of your backside take a gander at some of the threads posted or the replies in many I see plenty of US slamming all day everyday. Welcome to the club.

the denial of privilege and come to the logical conclusion that these people are hypocrites, murderers, covert and blind racists (two different things), rapists, thieves, and outright sinister. They'll hide all of this under the veil of nationalism or patriotism, but those who don't have blinders on can see it for what it is.

These are your words you'll have to live with. I'll let them speak volumes about you by themselves.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Very good comments, and very well placed comments.

I agree with you more than you'll know. This was a team effort. Plain and simple. At the time, the US was somewhat isolated solely due to the Atlantic.

Britain in the early days was again assisted by the Channel.

Too many of us in the States hold a close affinity with the UK, with Holland, yes, Germany, and all the other European nations from which our blood originates.

We've always as a people, tried to do the right things by others, and it really pisses us off for a loud minority of ignorant individuals to degrade the US at every opportunity.

And just like in any fight, we'll strike back.

We have ever had close ties with the UK. We like and prefer close ties with the UK. We back you up, you back us up.

As each year passes, it becomes increasingly evident that the American "colonies" are not voluntarily returning to British rule.

So, we help one another, assist and encourage one another, and recognize that neither of us would be better without the other.

We're both much better because of each other.

We may not do as all Brits wish for us to do. We may piss you off at times, but we as a people have had some government officials who haven't seen the sunshine in years, their heads so far up their nether regions.

We really do care what others think. But we won't subordinate our own pride to please others.

And if one thinks the folks in the US are stubborn, look at where we came from.

Good stock.

Originally posted by cenpuppie
reply to post by EMPIRE

Manifest Destiny anyone? That's how the power base was setup to be run in this country, on the backs of others...from sharecropping to credit. It's not about big business, it's about doing the least amount of work possible while maximizing profits, to the max!

I have personally talked to black folks that have traveled to Europe. You don't find it funny that the Europeans outlawed slavery before America, particularly the British?

Has anyone here ever denied that? I dont think so.

Although you're right your country outlawed slavery first but does that however mean that it erases the crime of it's past? Because if it does then apply that logic to the US as well, becuase if it doesn't then who is now being a hypocrite?

Naw chief the problem ain't Europe...it's America and the hypocrisy that built it's own foundation. What we see know is it's accumulation. Karma is a mother**** and this country as a whole is just getting it's cumupins.

You reap what you sow

Karma is a Mother****.
With that logic then all the crimes the European nations have carried world wide will some day come back to bite you in the ass. Karma is very patient. Hows that Sharia law working out for you?

So much for the Empire aye?


[edit on 22-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by cenpuppie

Wow. You actually PERSONALLY talked to blacks who came to Europe? How many roughly, would you say were or had been slaves?

And that concept of sharecropping? I permitted poor folks who didn't have enough money to buy farmland, to work at least in part for themselves.

The sharecropping was an option.

Plenty of land in the US, but it was risky business in the nineteenth century. Lots of folks died settling the new lands.

Growing up, one of my best friends, Larry Brooks, his mom and dad were dirt poor, and they sharecropped.

They were still a proud people, they were honorable, hard-working, and they did well enough.

Your perceptions of everything American seems to be tainted by some twisted delusions.

Good luck in the real world.

reply to post by dooper


Thanks for your reply, I'm glad you think it was a team effort, since my Gand father was American and sadly I never got to meet him, but I do have a whole host of cousins in the US (my Grand father was rather naughty and had 2 wives apart from knocking my nan up while he was here during the war ;-) So you see if the US hadn't come over here, then I would not be here now, that leaves me as defiant proof of that team effort :-)

Originally posted by Sam Vimes
From my experience, this nonsense blame game stems from the fact that not many Europeans have been to America.

Thats probably one of the most sensible things Iv heard in this farce of a thread.

It definitely works both ways as well..

Generalizing and Stereotyping is just too easy and fun. Its always good to bitch about the identical people across the ocean for absolutely no reason

Its also pretty obvious that it has a lot to do with the competitive streak on both sides of the water. European nations were top dogs, then the US became top dog, now the EU is up and coming.. that obviously factors into things in a major way.

The competition is obviously working seeing as collectively we control half of the worlds wealth so its obviously worked out pretty well to date.

Iv been to the states a few times and the biggest thing that took me aback was how similar we actually are.. Im not sure what I was expecting when I went to New York for the first time but it was almost exactly like being in London or Frankfurt only the accents and cabs were different lol.

I do get a good laugh from the stereotypes because in fairness, if they weren't meant to be so hurtful at times, they would be hilarious.. but they completely fall apart when the Generalizer meets your general non stereotype.


F***in Yanks!!!!

Originally posted by doctorvannostren
However, I dont think anyone ever originally stated that Europe was a country in the first place. Is it a crime to use the all-encompassing name of your continent instead of listing individual countries? Im pretty sure he wasnt just thinking of one individual country and typed in Europe by mistake. For example, if I said something like "Europe is garbage" I would mean that every country on the European continent is garbage.

Yeah well thats exactly my point.

if you say something like "Europe is garbage" you would mean that every country on the European continent is garbage.

So if i read Attack on America by Europe, it, to me, means every country on this continent is involved. And i dont like that, like i explained yesterday

Originally posted by dooper
They resent the fact that they even needed the help.

And that, friends, is the core of the European problem with Americans.

Another very good point. I wouldn't go as far as say they hate you for it but its definitely a big part of the original issue. In their time of need, who jumps in.. the bloody uncultured Yanks!! Then who takes over afterwards? The bloody uncultured Yanks!! Its easy to see but that was generations ago, they have definitely left most of that behind them at this stage. After all, its always the Americans that bring up the issue as if it matters.

Also, the generalized "European" thing is AGAIN the wrong thing to say here... Irish person here!

You are after all only talking about the British and French in that situation.. not the other 380 million people of the EU. Our problem only really developed with George Bush and the overly aggressive US foreign policy. Its not that hard to understand.