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An attack on America by Europe

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posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 08:03 PM
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Originally posted by chaeone86
The fact you describe China as a Communist nation says it all my friend. If china was a real communist land, as marx set forth in the manifesto, how could it simultaneously be the most important gear in the global capital market?

Without China, the capitalist society we Westerners lord over could not exist.



Well It's a good thing they are not running around with their little red books anymore which was the situation under Mao.

Otherwise that [important gear] would never have come to pass eh?




posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 08:19 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Oh come on Mao? You mean the guy so many in DC right now love? He wasnt such a bad guy now was he!

Oh wait....hmmm maybe its because he didnt have the stylish mustache he didnt get the credit.

Look great thread, and theres another thing to learn here too.

Every country has a past, and every country determines its future, much like the people within it.

Slander all you want, but once you learn the truth you cant unlearn it.

All these American hating people and self loathing Americans need to take a bit of history from other countries. In the spectrum of things we are a fairly young country, and it seems to me that weve learned pretty fast.

Its the current administration thats trying to take us BACK down roads that other countries have ventured and our now trying to get away from, doesnt make much sense does it?

The difference with the US is, we dont hide from our past, we try to grow, and move forward DESPITE of our downfalls and mistakes.

You can say what you want, but if we were SO BAD, we wouldnt be the destination of just about every refugee , or family trying to make something of themselves



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 08:21 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


Fair enough, I will admit to losing my focus a bit in generalization toward the end of my post and may have lost track of my original point.

A lot of the big, early land grabs were accomplished through totally uneven trades (like the Hudson River tribes with what is now New York).

If I remember correctly, the Natives didn't practice the concept of Land ownership, or view it in the same way Europeans did with lines and boundaries. So a lot of Land Grabbing consisted of Europeans "screwin the injuns", claiming the land, encroaching on Native's space, Killing those who would object and generally pushing the rest further west or expelling them elsewhere. Trade was noteable in that through this chaos, trade introduced things like guns and horses, things that set one tribe above another and acted to promote, from chaos, war and fighting between the tribes. It served to prevent unity. By the time the Manifest Destiny was if full kick, there wasn't a chance in h*ll.

Now i won't disagree-- there was a lot of murder, killing for sport, unforgivable stuff. But, to think some penny loafer Europeans could come over in their ships, a few thousand at most a time, and overthrow a hemisphere's worth of multiple societies with shear force alone... nah, i don't buy that. There were unbalancing forces throughout that, in my perspective, these made the difference when all was done. Trade and capitalism as an extension being the most essential.



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 08:22 PM
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This thread is nice, gets a flag from me. No, I dont think alike with the OP, I'm from europe, and heck I admit europeans have done some serious bad things, my "defence" for europe is though: Check out ANY country/empire that has existed EVER, tell me ONE that never got any skeletons in their closet.
And some europeans pointing fingers at USA is simple, USA does most visible "damage" to the world at the moment, it's not too hard to see who has been doing pointless wars after WWII.
Feel free to point fingers back at "us", heck, europeans do it at school by themselves too. We are tought about our wrongdoings in the past. Well, fortunately I'm not from area that was included in most of those terrible things.
Oh and Why I think this thread is good? It's a good way to spark discussion, main fault is that most of ATS members are from USA, so there exists a danger this thread will be the view of the another side. Well, I did read the first page before posting and saw some nice posts.



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 08:22 PM
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Originally posted by Orion65
Mudslinging and finger-pointing. Which nation is free of atrocities, or war, or negative actions?

Does humanity at this moment in time need accusations or should we collectively start working towards a more positive mindset?


I agree wholeheartedly, but this thread appears to have been started as a response to a certain faction of europeans slinging mud, pointing fingers, painting with a broad brush, and generally trashing America, and everything related to it, blaming the US for all the world's woes.

At first glance, history would appear to have nothing to do with that, as so many Europeans have pointed out. The thing is, the present sits on the shoulders of all that has passed, it's not a snapshot, an instant of here and now, alone and unrelated. It's the cumulative effect of all that has passed. We travelled a road to get here, we didn't just drop out of space in this condition.

It would be better if everyone just said "Ya know what? it happened. It's done and over with, lets deal with it and get on with the business of living, and improving what we've been left to work with". But that's not the way it generally goes. Someone makes a baseless, overly braod claim, someone else takes exception to that, and we're off!

Now, as Americans, you don't really think we're going to let someone kick our collective asses while we remain seated, do you? No, that just ain't the American way. We'll stand up to make the reaching for the kicking feet a little easier.

It appears that Europeans in that respect are little different, eh? It's just that the shoe is on the other foot for the kicking here, as it were.



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 08:22 PM
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My, my. Some really testy people shooting all over the countryside.

The point was, it's easy to criticize one group by another group who have done many, many bad things themselves.

No one ever wants to look back.

Because it's shameful.

But to criticize the villian of the moment is much more fun. It's a means of forgetting your own filthy, deteriorating state, and the blood spilled to build and maintain it, and make yourself feel better.

Whatever floats your boat.

You had your turn. Most of the nations in Europe will be Muslim states within twenty years.

For anything placed in motion, a bullet or a national trend, there is a ballistic trajectory. It can be viewed, measured, and anticipated with great confidence and accuracy.

Twenty years. In twenty years, the nations that once proudly held themselves in high esteem in the course of constant conquest, will themselves soon be defeated within.

And the problem?

You as individuals have nothing to fight with.

Americans still have a chance, armed to the gills.

We make mistakes, we make blunders, but we never were stupid enough to disarm ourselves thinking things would always be happy and remain constant.

Your own history should demonstrate that quite clearly.

We may be the big boys on the block right now, but our turn to step up is likewise coming.

Armed, I think we'll stand a much better chance.

And pacifists, intelligentsia, and academia are accelerating the declines in all nations.

Civilization. A process of self destruction, by enabling the barbarians through the gate, while touting "diversity."

**** makes me want to puke.



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


I hear ya, but I had to throw my idealistic 2 cents into the fray.


(I'm American, too, by the way.)



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 08:39 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 08:43 PM
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Two wrongs don't make a right.

Screw the second line because the first says it all.



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 08:59 PM
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Funny how the original title of the thread is actually coming true... I've just read 14 pages of it. Sad.

Reality check though....there's been several references to the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'd like to make one little tiny point very clear to all.

Every Country listed below is NOW engaged in Operation Freedom, troops on the ground, at the direction of the United Nations:

Albania Belgium Bulgaria Canada Croatia Czech Republic Denmark
Estonia France Germany Greece Hungary Iceland Italy Latvia Lithuania
Luxembourg Netherlands Norway Poland Portugal Romania Slovakia Slovenia Spain Turkey United Kingdom United States Australia Austria Azerbaijan Finland The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
Georgia Ireland Jordan New Zealand Sweden Singapore Ukraine
United Arab Emirates Bosnia and Herzegovina

If it's such a trerrible thing to the World...why don't all of these Countries bring their troops home????? Leave the USA to do the dirty work if you don't like it.....

stop hating so much..... Every one of you on here are probably represented in that list.

So we're all guilty. Let's move on......



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by chaeone86
reply to post by nenothtu
 


Fair enough, I will admit to losing my focus a bit in generalization toward the end of my post and may have lost track of my original point.


NP. Happens to all of us sometimes in the heat of discussion.




A lot of the big, early land grabs were accomplished through totally uneven trades (like the Hudson River tribes with what is now New York).

If I remember correctly, the Natives didn't practice the concept of Land ownership, or view it in the same way Europeans did with lines and boundaries. So a lot of Land Grabbing consisted of Europeans "screwin the injuns", claiming the land, encroaching on Native's space, Killing those who would object and generally pushing the rest further west or expelling them elsewhere. Trade was noteable in that through this chaos, trade introduced things like guns and horses, things that set one tribe above another and acted to promote, from chaos, war and fighting between the tribes. It served to prevent unity. By the time the Manifest Destiny was if full kick, there wasn't a chance in h*ll.


Fair enough assesment. The native concept of land ownership involved tribal lands, rather than individual holdings, and did recognize borders, but they were pretty ill defined usually. European acquisitions sometimes involved unfair trade practices when they were unsure of themselves in the matter of force, and at other times involved just shooting a few indians, overawing them with the sounds of thunder called down at will and causing death, and then taking the land, and pushing the indians off of it while they were still in shock. After a few years, they wised up to that, and it was on, but the whites had increased their numbers by that time exponentially.

Around 1620, the Powhatans killed off 2/3 of the englishmen in the colony of Virginia at that time, around 800 out of 1200, leaving 400 alive. It wasn't long before the english imported replacements and then some. the 1644 war, scarce 20 years later, went entirely the other way.



Now i won't disagree-- there was a lot of murder, killing for sport, unforgivable stuff. But, to think some penny loafer Europeans could come over in their ships, a few thousand at most a time, and overthrow a hemisphere's worth of multiple societies with shear force alone... nah, i don't buy that. There were unbalancing forces throughout that, in my perspective, these made the difference when all was done. Trade and capitalism as an extension being the most essential.


If you read the earliest accounts, a handful of europeans could cow the locals with a display of power, usually involving muskets and cannon. The indians weren't sure what to make of that, and let superstition get the best of them, to european advantage. In that way, a handful of foreigners could control a huge mass of indians, until the indians wised up to the trick. By then it was too late, in most cases.

Stefan Laurant had a wonderful collection of these accounts in print, all from before the settlement of Jamestowne, but I think it's out of print now. I found one at an antiquarian bookstore. It's called "The New World", I think.

The europeans wouldn't trade horses or muskets in the beginning. We had to steal our horses. Nobody's perfect, and the indians were no more idyllic than the europeans, but in differing ways. In the mid 1600's it was actually illegal to trade guns to indians in the Virginia colony, and a trader could have his license revoked for it.

Later on, the various european factions being more or less at war with one another, they were more than happy to give indians guns, as long as those guns were pointed at the "other" europeans.

Also, in connection with that, from the beginning the europeans were masters of playing one tribe or faction of indians against another, keeping them divided and more manageable. The europeans could then "outmass" the indians with fewer numbers than one would ordinarily think.

Much like "the powers that be" do to everyone, even to this day. This thread is a magnificent example.



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 09:03 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 





Your right...neither are white hats or black hats and arguing about how one side is better than the other is like arguing if apples are red or green.


Well any idiot knows apples are purple, where the hell did you come up with red or green.


Had to throw some humor in.

Let us just agree that all politicians are asshats and people should not follow politicians example of sticking their feet in their mouths. Look at our current asshat(Obama). If the teleprompter was never invented this guy would never have made it into politics, I mean really, have you ever listened to the idiot when he speaks without one. My god, it is downright embarrassing how fracking stupid our politicians are.

Of course the puppeteers are the ones we need to do something about.



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 09:11 PM
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I managed to read 7 pages of this claptrap before I gave up.

And there are still people who deny that the quality here on ATS is deteriorating?
Once over this this would have got laughed off the boards.
14 pages of 'I've got a bigger cock than you' with so little of any substance offered at all.

The generalisations and stereotyping involved has been nothing short of childlike.

It is wrong to judge the actions of yesterday by the morals and standards of today, however, history is there to teach us lessons.
Unfortunately we ALL seem incapable of doing this.

And I would like to add that for all the US's chest beating, peacock strutting and undoubted wrong doing the world would be a much worse place without them.
Imagine the alternatives?

[edit on 20/10/09 by Freeborn]



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 09:19 PM
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So effectively what this thread is about: America: We might have blown up our own twin towers, and invaded the wrong country and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent lives in the pursuit of oil, drugs and territory.... But we sure as hell won't let europe forget about some things that happened in a totally different life time, because that's just how mature us Americans are. Sure we may be not have any history of our own, but we'll certainly criticise anyone who does.


My friend , i agree with your point of view totaly and i agree with other posters, when i see that kind of thread, i can tell the quality of ATs is just...sinking

who the hell is lookin for "booo you did some mistakes in the past too ,i feel like crap but i gonna blame you to feel less guilty"


dont forget to blame ALL countries all around if you want to play equally

poedxsoldiervet, you're a damn good troll i must say and your thread is a pretty good piece of garbage,now stop embarassing yourself and go back in the troll forest



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 09:21 PM
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reply to post by OTTOKARMA
 


You or anyone else who posted here did not have to read my thread. YOu cant Troll your own thread, you as well as a few others may not have fully understood what I have said but thats okay, read what you want to.



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 09:28 PM
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Originally posted by OTTOKARMA



So effectively what this thread is about: America: We might have blown up our own twin towers, and invaded the wrong country and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent lives in the pursuit of oil, drugs and territory.... But we sure as hell won't let europe forget about some things that happened in a totally different life time, because that's just how mature us Americans are. Sure we may be not have any history of our own, but we'll certainly criticise anyone who does.


My friend , i agree with your point of view totaly and i agree with other posters, when i see that kind of thread, i can tell the quality of ATs is just...sinking

who the hell is lookin for "booo you did some mistakes in the past too ,i feel like crap but i gonna blame you to feel less guilty"


dont forget to blame ALL countries all around if you want to play equally

poedxsoldiervet, you're a damn good troll i must say and your thread is a pretty good piece of garbage,now stop embarassing yourself and go back in the troll forest


Here, ladies and gentlemen, for your amusement, we have an EXCELLENT proper example of precisely the sort of post this thread was meant to answer!

Long on denigrating verbiage, short on substance, and seeking to blame America for the woes of the world, while simultaneously deflecting responsibility from self.

Way to go! and thanks for your support!

[edit on 2009/10/20 by nenothtu]



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 09:29 PM
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You dont understand.

You posted ,so i assume in the purpose of being read, so face the consequncies, wouldnt that be easy to post and only accept the comments of who agree with you ?

I totaly disagree with the stupidity of your thread and and i dont gonna shut my opinion because its not "politicaly correct " and might hurt your ego if i rain on your parade.

Keep in mind, when you post,its not only you, its all the readers,behind their monitors,voicing their opinions.



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 09:34 PM
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Here, ladies and gentlemen, for your amusement, we have an EXCELLENT proper example of precisely the sort of post this thread was meant to answer! Long on verbiage, short on substance, and seeking to blame America for the woes of the world, while simultaneously deflecting responsibility from self. Way to go! and thanks for your support!


Tell me where im blaming america ?
Before trying to turn my words in idiocy, learn to read


At least my friend,im a clown and make a fool of myself,but i know it.
Ignorance is bliss for somes

and maybe a word you didnt found the use in your such poor vocabulary, for you, its called,irony



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 09:39 PM
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Originally posted by Freeborn
And I would like to add that for all the US's chest beating, peacock strutting and undoubted wrong doing the world would be a much worse place without them.
Imagine the alternatives?




You sir are a God damned Genius.




posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 10:22 PM
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Love this post


Its a great thread it started off as one saying hey dont talk about me because you did the same.

It finally ressembles a patriotic thread that every one wants to defend their cause.
My humble opinion: Its a waste of time to point fingers.

Now my 2 cents: Being from european decendancy and that being that my native language is foreign to you. I can say this. Dont hate your brother from over seas as you learned what you know now from us. If all these things wouldnt of happened we would of all been in caves to this date. The dark ages of europe made many suffer and many died for stupidities and non sense but they didnt know better and it took all that time for others to decide to move on. Now you would believe that these new worlders would have learned something about lying and killing and creating chaos but nope didnt because the leading north of today still makes the same mistakes we made hundreds of years ago. So we are no different we are the same. We actually are if I can dare say familly like every other human on this planet.

If you want to be patriotic or if you want to point fingers then become a patriot of this planet as a whole and point the finger at yourself for not helping it at all become better and openly letting your brothers and sisters kill themselves and this planet with it.

Just an other distraction from the real issues at hand brothers.

Fear No One, Trust No One

[edit on 20-10-2009 by NIGHTRID3R]



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