Why can't evolution be the devine process.

reply to post by holyTerror


The bible is specific about how man was made. God formed man from the dust of the earth. It says nothing about man coming from a monkey and it doesn't say that it took 7 days just to make man, man was made in one day.

Okay so what is the dust of the earth? The little bits - creation itself physical matter. So okay man was made from physical matter. A way that god could have done this (if she was clever enough) was to create bacteria which mix genes between organisms until the perfection of humankind had evolved.

The creation story included the makings of the heavens (yes) okay so if she created the whole universe (nobody else was going to make it) God created the universe in six days, sweet no problem. This keeps us away from the materialists claiming that god is the universe. As God is the creater than surely she is more then that which has been created.

Originally posted by John Matrix
Really? You haven't made a choice yet?

You don't care where you came from, why you are here, and where you are going?

what i'm saying is that there may be many more choices than you and others are willing to acknowledge. It's false dichotomy to insist that either evolutionary theory or creationism is correct.

To combine the two positions in a middle ground might seem logical but it's really not in context. What the OP is proposing is a golden mean fallacy of sorts.

combining two different positions might make the new stance more amicable but really it is nothing more than that. Something to make everybody happy.

where i came from? pretty sure of that one.
why am i here? working on it.
where am i going? working on it.

Maybe you have been too busy to investigate?

no, i search for the truth constantly. It's practically all i do.

If we are wrong, we will suffer the loss of a delusion....big deal.

If we are right, then the atheist/evolutionists suffers an eternity in Hell.

Do you want to take that risk?

so the only thing that compels you to believe in, whatever you believe in, is fear?

[edit on 10/20/2009 by JPhish]

reply to post by John Matrix


So a creationists argument against evolution is basically that life is too complex to form on its own.. Simple as that.. Did i miss something or is that it?

Since when is a Christian website a good reason to disregard the information found therein?

Since they are the same links put up by every psuedo science loving christian on the site, and they all have the same information, trying to discount evolution as if that would be proof of their own insane beliefs.

Are you afraid you might learn something?

Like what?
That DNA is very complex and thus must be 'gods' work, thats about all a christian 'science' websight will teach anyone, oh and that hitler believed in evolution and that whole birds wing crap.

Here is a sight dedicated to allowing people to learn what evolution is all about, it doesnt rely on discounting creation (as though there was anything to discount anyway..) the way your creation sites try and make evolution out to be a joke. Have a look at the link and you might learn something.. I doubt it though.
Evolution

Oh and the fact there are bible verses at the bottom of your 'nail in the coffin' is hilarious if they are in some way saying that they mean anything in regards to science. Darwinian evolutionist LOL that in itself is funny.

And what exactly is the 'evolutionist' agenda?

reply to post by sicklecell


Your evolution site is well out of date. God given bacteria is the cause of most changes and developments on earth.
A possible agenda for evolutionists is a reducing of a world view to merely material. We are all in the bubble of the created universe, this is the human condition.
This is why I think it inappropriate to have a belief because we have such a limited view. When I say a belief I mean in God and also materialism. You my friend have a belief just as the one you are pointing at.
Scientists recently watched evolution in action (bacteria mutating 20 times while they recorded it) This still is not proof of our altimate origins.
It is not provable.

reply to post by Peter Brake

A possible agenda for evolutionists is a reducing of a world view to merely material

What would the purpose of that be? What would a scientist advocating evolution stand to gain from that?

Scientists recently watched evolution in action (bacteria mutating 20 times while they recorded it) This still is not proof of our altimate origins.

Thats obviously not going to prove anything about our ultimate origins, evolution does not try to prove where we started. It is proof of the evolutionary process.

You my friend have a belief just as the one you are pointing at.

Yes i have beliefs but they are not dependent on myths written by men thousands of years ago or an invisible man in the sky.

First change and adaptation is not evolution. Not in the evolution of upward evolving forms. Variations occur, of course, but the tendency is downward to devolution. "Evolution" tends to refer to an upward progression of forms. The larva example is not "Evolution". Second that fact that the form changed to better meet the climate needs cal also be viewed as compassion / mercy being extended. The bottom line is desire and assistance from a higher region cause change for the good or the bad. It is not the infinitely ridiculous randomness of energy that causes change but intelligence or deliberately directed energy.

reply to post by ReelView


The mechanism of change is bacteria, the success of it is whether or not it conveys an advantage. So it is evolution not deevolution. Things die if they can not compete for food, and get to breed if they are good at providing.

reply to post by sicklecell


What would the purpose of that be? What would a scientist advocating evolution stand to gain from that?

Securing further grant money, or keeping their job. I am a bit down on scientists at the moment. Your evolution site is part of the cover up which maybe the cause of humanities great dying. The biotech industry and their scientists with the support of politicians had managed to bury this natural process (bacteria as the prime mutation agent) until about four years ago. Why? So they could continue to pump out genetically modified foods.

Thats obviously not going to prove anything about our ultimate origins, evolution does not try to prove where we started. It is proof of the evolutionary process.

The full story that evolutionists offer is that we started as single cell organisms and mutated into fully fledged animals called humans. It denies the human spirit which in a religious view is where we started.

Yes i have beliefs but they are not dependent on myths written by men thousands of years ago or an invisible man in the sky.

I spent a lot of time looking for an experience that would prove my beliefs untrue. I couldn’t find one. I did however find another belief system that also I could not imagine any circumstance that could prove me wrong. Since then I have found three more equally undeniable.
Here’s the sticky point I’ve included a range of death experiences I don’t think that death will hold an ultimate answer either at least not for me. I honour your bravery in belief and certainly acknowledge that I can not prove you wrong

reply to post by kilas

Why can't evolution be the devine process.

Why? Because that would lead to expanded trains of thought, that are not welcome in the highly controlled religious control grid. They must limit the concept of god in small packets called books (Bible) in order to sell it to the masses.

We see evolution every day right in front of our faces in the thoughts we have or in products we buy, evolution is as natural as the sun coming up and evolving into the next day.

The "Creators" of the bible can be limited in what they can do or achieve and can be put into one or two books, but the truly Divine, can never be held in one book, one religion, or one solar system.

Evolutions create' and Creations evolve, that's just the way it is

But, some people do not want to allow your mind to venture into these possibilities, because if you do, you will find a new freedom and a new intellectual plateau to stand on.

OP, Great thread, great Idea

This is in response to "Why can't both the Evolutionists and the Creationists, both be right?"

ONE WORD: Eyeball

Evolutionists have put up a good "fight" in their quest to convince the world that we evolved from simple protozoa>monkeys>humans...but, the one thing that DISPROVES their theory in its entirety is the eyeball. Because of its complex, reverse structure(s), the eyeball single-handedly disproves the evolutionists theory. However, as in every lie their is a seed of truth. Whomever your higher power is, remember this: you're both right. God created humans AND we evolve. God created animals AND they evolve.

reply to post by timtheyankee

ONE WORD: Eyeball

Because of its complex, reverse structure(s), the eyeball single-handedly disproves the evolutionists theory

Would you care to elaborate?
How and why does 'the eyball' single handedly disprove the theory of evolution?

reply to post by sicklecell


They think something complicated (a meaningless word in this context because complexity is relative) could have evolved that way...

I really shows a lack of knowledge...

We live in the universe where rules so-called Thermodynamics... Everything goes towards the lowest energetic stages. Enthropy.
So how to believe that it was just the chaotic mixing of molecules that created primitive lifeforms and then more complicated and more incredible, stage by stage till something as complexs and formidable came to live as the human being...be it even the manic-atheis ATSer...

@JEZUS

Complexity IS the proper usage...and if you were so smart, you wouldn't have told on yourself "I shows a lack of knowledge..." The eyeball has single-handedly disproved the theory of evolution. Do your research as I have done and stop trying to bring down someone else's belief (and in this instance, FACTUAL) because you believe in something different.

Google it. You'll find it.

reply to post by timtheyankee

Google it. You'll find it.

I did and found NO evidence.

The eyeball has single-handedly disproved the theory of evolution. Do your research as I have done

Since you have extensively researched this you will have no problem EXPLAINING why it single handedly disproves evolution.
I look forward to your reply.
(Dont reply with things like "the eye is too complex to evolve so it must have been designed". That is a cop out. A childish one at that. Not knowing how something came to be is in no way proof that "god did it")


[edit on 26-10-2009 by sicklecell]

reply to post by timtheyankee


Complexity is relative.

There are chemicals that respond differently to light.

The eye-ball argument against evolution is a lack of understanding...

"I don't comprehend how an eyeball could evolve so it must be impossible"

reply to post by kilas


It's a cultural issue. But I for one think that evolution is in-accurate. But not entirely false.

Come on, life supposedly started from micro-organisms yet flys evolving into elephants is out of the question?

And about Christianity... the focus should be more about God not about what God does to the world.

Fact of the matter is, we just won't know what God does all time time... and science always changes.

You can have both 'belief' systems. But I think the important thing is... whats true to you as an individual. Because there is always a need for proof in a world where people have a right to question.

But.. it is quite entertaining to clash beliefs isnt it?

Reply to post by kilas

Evolution versus Creation is nothing more than a mask, an excuse, for Atheism versus Theism. Observation of just where such bickering matches often devolve into shows that to anyone who stays neutral and watches. Atheism breathes meaning into evolution to justify their beliefs *much like their counting efforts to hi-jack all science* despite the obvious leap it would take and parades it as science. And Theists take a leap in other direction to justify theirs. Meanwhile true, NEUTRAL science gets lost in this crap of agenda politics.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by holyTerror

Originally posted by kilas

So can someone tell me what is SOOOOOO WRONG with thinking that evolution is just the process of god? I don't know what difference it would make.

Again, if evolution were the process of God, then God would've made sure to include it in...blah blah blah

I don't have too much time so I'd like to make a tiny contribution.

There's just something that aren't in the Bible. Like an instruction book of how God uses his powers. Just pointing out that what's in The Bible is important for humans, not for science.

Furthermore, if evolution did exist... it would just have to be by divine modification. IMO, it would take a miracle for a species to evolve... much more completely transform into an entirely different species after living in an environment that has changed it's habitat.

Im just saying that I have no doubt that God could modify a species at this moment to survive an environment if he chose to do so.