A serious flaw in the bible...

Why to be for or against the bible? Why do people feel the urge to defend it zealously or attack it furiously?

Are they all afraid, that their personal beliefs are endangered? Those that furiously attack it, are afraid that their rejection of the word given in bible, might be false and therefore they search for contradictions and mistakes, hence enforcing and securing their own beliefs.

And the defenders.. They are afraid of exactly the same thing. They are afraid that their chosen guide might be wrong and they need to enforce their faith by illogically inventing all kind of excuses and explanation to the contradictions they encounter.

All this boils down to the literal interpretation of the bible - as stated in few posts above. In both cases - be it bible protector or against it, they seem to forget that it is another story book trying to explain psychological (spiritual, if you like) factors of human psyche.

I personally regard both of these types, bible bashers and protectors, as unstable personalities that are in movement towards (or even away of) individuation. Also I see them as somewhat infant in the sense that they are stuck in this irrelevant action of interpreting of the dead word.

-v

The simple answer to the original question is that the 7 days were 7 days to God. The problem being here is that God is an all powerful spirit being.

Time itself distorts in his presence.

2nd Peter 3-8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

All you can be sure of there is that the 7 days are just 7 periods of time. Nothing more.

Also something to consider if this is the divinely inspired word of God then you have to consider the person inspired to write it. A stone age to bronze age hunter gatherers, shepherds, and early farmers are not exactly prime material to discuss topics like advanced physics.

They don't have the concepts. Imagine what a person from the BCE would say in a story about today if he was plucked out of his time for a day and you gave him a guided tour.

With all your tools and toys you would appear like a god. So just remember the stories in the bible are colored by the authors.

First off: Carbon dating can't go back millions of years. Even carbon dating scientists, say 30,000 tops. To go back further you'd have to use something like uranium/lead, argon, ext... so kinda right away you're showing that you're jumping for predetermined belief by arguing from a point you don't understand. BUT, Even if radiometric dating worked, which it's proven not too (Yes, PROVEN) They still can't answer the question "How much carbon 12 was there in relation to carbon 14, when it died?" If there was any, the dating would be messed up.

As to light from a supernova, yes, the bible says God created light.. and it was days later He created stars.. so he would of made the light in transit. BUT, we don't even need that argument.

You're going off the assumption that light has a constant speed. It's ok, many people think this, because it's what you're taught. But it's not true. The speed of light as it was measured through history was slowing down. It wasn't until they started using atomic clocks to measure light that they decided it had a constant speed. Atomic clocks measure time by the speed of light... Think for a second you see the major flaw there.

Light can be effected by gravity. If gravity can slow it down, then it can speed it up also, and logically, if anything can effect the speed of light, then it can't possibly be constant. Even in the lab, scientists have slowed, and even stopped light. Not possible if it was a constant.

The simple answer to your nova question then, would be "you have no idea how long it took the light to get here, nor how far away it is" All the calculations are based on a scientific flaw.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Nothing in your list even remotely constitutes a "flaw", and certainly not flaws of a "logical" or "historical" nature. Rather, you present a few instances where Scripture runs contrary to your own personal moral estimations. You've managed to prove that Scripture disagrees with you, and that's it.

You've yet to even approach discrediting Christianity. With arguments like these, you're not even in the right arena.

reply to post by ntech


quote]2nd Peter 3-8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This is because time so called (a human interpretation; Definition:- the rate of change in things.) does NOT exist outside your experience.

Your world is a bit like understanding a CD or DVD where all is present at the same time on the disc, the beginning, the in between, and the end.

It is only when the CD or DVD is played that there appears to be time in other words the nature of the data on the disc becomes sequential.

What your world appears to be and what it actually is are two entirely different things.

So you can't judge what is of God, in the human primates understanding.

As Jesus said you need to be taken outside the word and then put back into the world to know and understand.

When this happens then as Jesus said the world will hate you.

This is because you no longer look at the world anymore, as a human primate but istead as Jesus or God sees and understands, both the true nature of the make up of the world, its structure and as well as how you see it as appearing as your universe.

But this is Not all that has been Created but is only a very, very small part.

It is written that the knowledge of God is foolishness to humankind (The Descendants of A'Dam.)

[edit on 25-10-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]

Stop with the CARBON dating. Carbon dating is the least of it.

Carbon dating helps to figure out dates of objects since modern humans have been around but can be incorrect. There are a number of other substances with radiation decay signatures which help to place older events and objects and prove the enormous age of the earth.

The one that goes the farthest back is uranium-lead dating. When you talk about the origin of the earth, you should talk about this one. The core of the earth would be stone cold if not for uranium down there, and it helps to provide the ultimate clock.

The thing is, none of these radiometric date methods are perfect, but TOGETHER they help confirm that we've been here too long for a literal reading of Genesis (I still think it has some great allegories though).

Originally posted by CHA0SYes...it could be incorrect...but the problem is...Christians hardly ever bother to actually look at how the science behind this stuff works, and are unable to accurately decide how solid the science actually is...I don't think anyone could disagree that there are stars so far away, the light would take well over 10,000 years to get here...and the science involved in calculating the distance of stars is extremely solid. Christians find it so easy to dismiss well established scientific concepts...when they themselves are promoting absolute crap, with no backing what so ever...

Wow! Well, thank God I'm a Christian-Evolutionist. Hahaha... I must be doing something wrong if I believe in both the bible and science. Most Christians believe in science and religion at the same time. We only have problems when religious sects get involved.

[edit on 25-10-2009 by Pathos]

I see from the little tab at the bottom have a limited amount of space in which to comment so I will attempt to be as concise as possible and perhaps concentrate on just one aspect of this subject at a time.
First I find it interesting that there are so many EXPERTS who are commenting here who know so little about the subject, on either side.
I am disappointed in my Christian brothers who are preaching a psuedo gospel. Shame on you. Learn what God has actually said, and then tell someone else. Don't try to fake it. You will look stupid.
To the scientific geniuses who also have all the answers let me say if science had all the answers you wouldn't be here inquiring about what the Bible says. So having said that, I promise I will try to make comments that uplift and inform not insult and tear down.
I respect scientific exploration and inquiry and am very interested in the information it gives us but, I don't limit myself to just science because I found out that God is real and He is always very precise about the things He says, even if I haven't learned how to understand all of it yet.
Scientists are always in a quest for knowledge about a miriad of things, and often the discovery of knowledge leads them to more knowledge about other things, and so it is with God. He is so vast that our teeny mental capacity can't possibly grasp all that He has to say to us, all at once.
When our phyisists began their quest for mathematical knowledge first they learned how to add, subtract, divide, and multilpy, and had no idea, at that point, what quantum physics was all about because they didn't have the knowledge it took to comprehend all of it. It's the same with God; if you don't have all the knowledge you need, you can't understand Him or His book, the Bible. I hope to share some information about the Bible at another time but if you are interested in knowing more right now I suggest you go to : www.wordworx.co.nz/panin.html to learn about the perfectness of the Bible.
Sufice it to say that the Bible is a perfect book as written in it's original languages, Hebrew, Greek and Chaldee. I know some of you will bust a blood vessel at that statement, but remember what said, don't blow a gasket without having all the facts first.
I will refrain from addressing comments in particular by a specific person and rather try to be more general in respose to many comments.
One of the first things is that God is not a single entity as some suppose, but rather He is a composite of at least three parts.
My Jewish brethren repeat a Hebrew scripture that says, Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! They steadfastly contend that God cannot be more than one person, but they fail to see that the word used in that phrase for the word ONE is the Hebrew word Echad, which is a word that means one in the sense of one bunch of grapes or bananas, in other words one thing composed of several parts.
Now I did catch a glimple of someone who was trying to sell God's different persons as some goofy sureal bunch of false gods but that's totally untrue. I won't take the time here to explain fully but I will later.
Some of these subjects take quite a bit of time and space which is limited here.
I guess I should mention that I consider the Bible to be perfect and I use it as an absolute reference a lot. If you disagree, then it's up to you to prove me wrong, but I caution you the word of God is a very powerful tool and can withstand the most sever scrutiny, so if you intend to attack it be prepared.
I fully expect detractors to be rude and insulting but I asure you I am not crazy, ignorant, or frightened of challenges to the word of God, because it doesn't need me to defend it, it does that very well itself.

Originally posted by exposethosesecrets
What if there was a great fire on earth, and carbon developed faster, making carbon dating look much older.

SIGH!! The carbon in radiometric tests is not ash from a fire, it is a radioactive isotope constantly made anew and we test for its presence, daughter elements and lack therof. For dating older items we look for different

Carbon dating keeps debunking itself, and some honest scientists are admitting this.

No, it is re-proven on almost a daily basis. If it didn't work then nuclear power stations and certain treatments for cancer would also not work, but they do.

There are times when local conditions causes apparently false results from Carbon 14 (and other radiometric) dating, so it is not perfect. It was only meant to be one line of evidence about origins. But it is remarkably precise and reliable.

How long does a molten material take to cool off and form into rock.
Days, maybe weeks. Not millions of years.

Again, it is not simply the cooling into rock which tells us the earth has been here for billions of years. Its the erosion and breakdown of those rocks, the layering of strata (here from apparent cataclysms, but there the result of slow and gentle processes) and most importantly the presence of RADIOACTIVE ISOTOPES of various amounts in the soil/rock.

I'm not sure how many of these will be allowed but here goes. I saw one comment that said the bible never mentions taking a crap, but actually it does. God gave the Jews instructions as to how to dispose of their waste and cover it. "Deut 23:13 and you shall have a spade among your tools, and it shall be when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and shall turn to cover up your excrement." And it was for health reasons He gave them that obviously but I bet you don't know the other reason, it was,
"Deut 23:14 "Since the LORD your God walks in the midst of your camp to deliver you and to defeat your enemies before you, therefore your camp must be holy; and He must not see anything indecent among you or He will turn away from you." God didn't want to see it or step in it.
Before I say anything about the creation described in the Bible let me say that any Christian who says that the earth is only between 6,000 and 10,000 years old hasn't read all of the Bible and hasn't used the brain his God has given him to understand. How old is the earth and for that matter the universe? I don't know, science doesn't really know either, although it makes theoretical estimates, which from time to time get re-evaluated, just like the Theory of evolution, and we should all remember that's what it's called. because there is absolutely no concrete evidence of that ever occuring, unless of course, you thinks fragments of teeth and bones labeled the missing link are proof.
In fact before I go to the creation let's be clear about something. The same people who want me to believe that I am a result of evolution and decended from apes are the same ones who want me to believe that the world was created by an extreemly large explosion, and from that, all this world came into being. Talk about a srtetch of the imagination. That goes way beyond believeing there is an intelligent being called God who masterminded the whole thing. These are supposed to be rational, intelligent humans who have been educated and taught and trained to reason things out, and the first thing they do is trash the laws of physics.
Because of the principles summarized by the Second Law of Physics, real functional complexity has a relentless tendency to break down, not build up except under highly specific conditions, the idea of evolution is really not even something to consider. I will show later by the Bible itself why that is true. The other thing is that another law of physics is that you never get order from chaos, therefore shooting the whole big bang theory down.
On the other hand I think I would be hard pressed to find a scientist who believes that if he just throws all his research papers into the air they will all come down in the proper order forming the correct solutions thus
solving his problems. But he probably believes in both the big bang and evolution. Tsk Tsk. What shall we do?
Well we need to understand that even the Bible says the earth is older than most Christians believe it is. I know that will upset some of you as well, but it's true. This verse of scripture clearly states it.
2 Pet 3:3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
2 Pet 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
2 Pet 3:5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
2 Pet 3:6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
So the earth was formed out of water that already exsisted when God made the earth, but where did the water come from then?
I'll explain in my next post.

reply to post by Anuberial


Bible was rewrite and copy by hands of monks many ,many times in past,..
biblical scholars know that is many errors in current bible made by tired or lazy monks who spend most of they lives just copying other copy's of bible.
You can't really take those dates serious I did study Bible on University of Wroclaw in Poland and I know that the Bible is not written in chronological order.
For most Christian is just Holly Book not scientific material like for Muslim Quran.

I am not sure why people engage in this debate. It is not something that can be won.

No matter what anyone will tell you, it comes down to faith, for both the science and deity worshipper.

In the end, if you think that your little brain can feasibly comprehend beyond even the most basic things, you are delusional.

This ends up being nothing more than a show and tell of belief, full of the usual chest beating and tap dancing. The Bible is an extraordinary complicated document. Unless you have spent several lifetime in contextual study, and living through that study, your opinion is far from informed...for both followers, and non-believers.

Whatever happened to intellectual humility?

Atheists, I am sorry, but I have never met anyone intelligent as you try and convince the world you are. You are only fooling yourself.

Theists, I am sorry, but no matter how hard you believe, you will never make your faith into science. You are only fooling yourself.

In the end, for those who are aware, this chasm of logic and creativity should be something, and the only possible thing, to be discussed. It is only here we may meet, without intention, and progress from there.

If you are trying to point out how stupid the Christian faith is, I am really quite sorry, but many people vastly more intelligent than you have believed it, and elaborated on it. I am not even sure why you would try, or more interestingly, why, you would want to. So they, the uninformed, may be like you? I am afraid you have a lot of waking up to do.

As for the Christians, unless they actually start acting like their founder, I dare say they shouldn't get to happy with their unfortunate title. Your belief does not make it right in the face of logic, so don't look surprised when people look at you like you are silly...it is not because you have it right and they are jealous.

I don't get why people are always trying to "save" one another. It is pointless. Who likes a salesman?

Go sell your medicine somewhere else.

Until then, have responsible faith, even if you BELIEVE you have no such thing.

Peace.

This is only one of the flaws in the Bible ... the Bible is rife with more anomalies, contradictions, lies and all manner of other horrendous atrocities leveled at mankind, the animal kingdom and nature.

If you are a Christian or part of any other religion that is Bible-based, I challenge you to go visit this link first and then linger on the site and read up some of the already documented research that has been done around the many, many falsehoods and nonsensical BS that is peddled as the word of God.

Evil Bible ...

Then, just to satisfy your own mind, cross reference and check it in the Bible for yourself ... If you do this, you will first become angry because you've allowed yourself to be lied to for so long and then a paradigm shift will take place in your being and you will be freed from the shackles of a fear-based religion that was designed to enslave and control.

If people believe that "god" was being deceitful then they are mistaken. A God wouldn't lie right? A devil would though.

reply to post by Victoria 1


I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic ... but I will reply as if you are being serious just for the fun of it

What you say seems to ring true - but only if one believes in the existence of God and the Devil as contained and described in the Bible.

According to the Bible, God is directly responsible for countless mass-murders, rapes, pillage, plunder, slavery, child abuse and and and ... so how can you postulate that he would not lie? If you take the trouble to do a little homework - starting with the link in my previous post - you will find that there are many contradictions (read lies) in the Bible.

The explanation I usually get when I question the creation as described in the Bible, is that it is symbolic. Then I flick to the last page and read a threat against anyone who adds or takes away from the Bible. Sorry, notwithstanding a plethora of other BS contained between page 1 and the last page, I can find no sane reason to believe a book that starts with symbolism and ends with a threat.

Originally posted by jws1935
These are supposed to be rational, intelligent humans who have been educated and taught and trained to reason things out, and the first thing they do is trash the laws of physics.
Because of the principles summarized by the Second Law of Physics, real functional complexity has a relentless tendency to break down, not build up except under highly specific conditions, the idea of evolution is really not even something to consider. I will show later by the Bible itself why that is true. The other thing is that another law of physics is that you never get order from chaos, therefore shooting the whole big bang theory down.
On the other hand I think I would be hard pressed to find a scientist who believes that if he just throws all his research papers into the air they will all come down in the proper order forming the correct solutions thus
solving his problems. But he probably believes in both the big bang and evolution. Tsk Tsk. What shall we do?

Not true. What about formation of crystals? Or many geological features that appear to be man-made? Formation of planetary systems?

First, it is not second law of physics, but second law of thermodynamics, which shows that you did not bother to look it up, and are just repeating what you heard somewhere.

en.wikipedia.org...

www.talkorigins.org...

It DOES NOT state that order cannot come from chaos. It can, and does, provided there is enough energy. And life on Earth is NOT an isolated system, so this law doesnt even apply to it.

Big bang by far wasnt just an ordinary explosion, this statement again shows you probably dont know what you are talking about.. A bit of basic wiki against ignorance never hurts: en.wikipedia.org...
www.talkorigins.org...

[edit on 26-10-2009 by Maslo]

I know my posts fly in the face of what many people who trust only in science believe, so I guess I should explain the basis for my trusting in the Bible as a credible source for information.
Science always wants to be able to prove it's conclusions by absolutes, though when theorizing it seems to ignore that. I read a lot of posts that condemn the Bible as contradictory, false, and some even go so far as to call it fiction, but they speak from a position of lack of knowledge. I don't have a problem with theorizing as long as it's labeled as such. I theorize myself about spiritual things that are not specifically addressed by the Bible, but I don't try to pass these off as gospel.
God gave the scriptures to man so he could know what God expected from him. God knew the falability of man because of his having disobeyed in the beginning, so He didn't leave to chance that man would screw up the words He wanted preserved for all men to read. How did He do that, when as some point out that men have written the words down and copied them over and over with a tremendous opportunity for error? Well, He did it in a very scientific way. He gave the words He wanted preserved, to man in three languages that all had the same peculiar aspect, that being that all of the languages, Hebrew, Greek and Chaldee have alphabets that are composed of letters that have numerical value. Now the full explaination of that would take more space than this site would allow, so suffice it to say that the words of the Bible are numerically, mathematically composed that when you add together the letters of a phrase, a pharagraph, a chapter, or for that matter the whole thing you can divide the sums evenly by the number seven.
So if there are any errors or situations where there is a possibility of two or more words that could be used in the translations of the original text one can go back to the original and re-evaluate the math and find the correct word so that the integrity of the text is maintained. Obviously this is not the only numerical quality of the bible text but it is the one that sets it apart from all other documents.
www.asis.com...
This link will take you to a site that you can explore all of the aspects of bible numerics as well finding other links that further explian this phenomena.
Ivan Panin challenged anyone to write similar compositions to match this numerical pattern and have the same qualities and to my knowledge no one has ever been able to do it. However there is also a discovery about the English lanuage it's called English Gematria and has to do with the English words that have numerical values that correspond to words that relate to a certain subject. I haven't been able to fully examine it but I think it's very interesting, and it apparently is masterminded by God as well.
Therefore whether the Hebrew scriptures or the Greeks scriptures are quoted they have God's seal of truth in them. As for not understanding what appear to be condradictions between certain scriptures, one cannot understand spiritual things with natural reasoning. Now I know that sounds like I'm a nut ball, but man cannot understand God with his natural mind. It takes a transformation that only come with the born again experience to be able to comminicate with the living God, because natural man is a being composed of just two parts, body and soul, whereas man was originally created as a three part being, just like God spirit, body and soul. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and their spiritual consciousness died and from that time on man was just a two part being, until Jesus made a way for men to once again become spiritual beings. I will explain.

reply to post by Psyagra


there's at least three of them. at least. and by the time of the tower of babel, it expanded to 70+. they were called the elohiym in biblical texts and the anunnaki in sumerian texts and the gods of mt. olympus in grecian texts and so on. so yeah, if you didn't know that, and were told there was only one, and wrote down everything that one supposedly said/did, and it was actually more like 3 up to 70, that would be a huge maze of who said what. the biblical account is mostly about 3 in particular.

p.s. check out APOLLYON in the book of revelation, 9th chapter. that's apollo as god of plagues. yet apollo was also associated with medicine and healing. clearly he was attributed with the exploits of one of the other gods. we have to decipher it all to learn who actually did what and when and where, if at all. if you really want to find out, you don't stop at what someone else wrote, you go learn it all for yourself. all the ancient texts are interconnected. none of them are islands unto themselves. for example,

the ugaritic divine council has EL at its head. same EL as biblical EL. unfortunately, anyone who had the title of an elohiym, was considered EL in the biblical account. EL is the etymological descendant of the sumerian Enlil. the etymology goes like this:

ENLIL=LIL=IL=EL=AL
his name became the god word.

by the time of the tower of babel events, also recounted in "enmerkar and the lord of arrata" (an akkadian story), and a few other texts from that time frame, all mesopotamian gods were given the ENLIL god word in their name. so you see the akkadian BABILU=BABEL. IL=EL. doesn't mean they are all enlil. just means they were called by his name. i think this confused the hebrews, to be honest, and when there was occassion to fill in the gaps of their oral histories, they relied on the mainstream texts of their time and ended up with any number of other holders of the god word title, as applicable solely to one god. i don't think that's true, just based on the evidence.




[edit on 26-10-2009 by undo]

What a great post! The text in this post is well thought out, detailed, and just generally impressive. . .as is according to God's plan. Ha ha ha.

No, seriously, I think it's great when people question the "word of god". When I did that, as a kid, I was told how we're not supposed to question god.
My response was always "How do you know that my question is not part of the plan?" For a while, my siblings and I were lured into the vacation bible school, where I learned to be more confused than ever.

I've been told that everything was made with the appearance of age. Then, is believing that the earth is 4.5 billion years old against the teaching of the word of god??

Can I sue my state because the education system was luring me away from the word of god!!??



Oh, wait. . .I'm a non-believer!

Although. . .that time when jesus kicked some tables over is pretty awesome. I think he was angry over some weird idea that the leaders of the church were being more about money, or something. Where'd he get THAT idea!!???

[edit on 26-10-2009 by Divine Strake]

reply to post by CHA0S


Those are all parts of the Genesis which is nothing more than a adaptation of a much older knowledge or mythology. Since it was adapted many things got lost or were simply changed to better suite the current reality and culture of the time it was written.

If you want to understand the Genesis you must read other sources as well. Try the Sumerian, Indian and Egyptian texts. Put them all together and you'll have something. They all share common and interesting things.