It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Rapture or tribulation, which is first ?

page: 3
1
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 05:53 PM
link   
reply to post by The Riley Family
 


Well, okay, if the leader of the NWO declares himself to be Jesus Christ and demands we worship him and receive a crucifix mark in our hands or in our forehead and won't let anyone buy or sell without a crucifix mark in their hand or in their foreheads and starts beheading people who refuse to take the crucifix mark, then I'll turn it down.

Thanks for the info.




posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 09:00 PM
link   

Originally posted by The Riley Family
Because the antichrist is actually jesus. The name adds up to 616 in Hebrew and 666 adds up to be the crucifix. So the crucifix will be the image that is the abomination of desolation that will be set up.


Close, but not quite.

The images of Jesus you see in Churches today, the one with the long hair, nordic looking man, is not Jesus at all. First, Jesus was a Jew and Jews are forbidden to wear long hair. It is also forbidden to depict Jesus in the arts, sculptures, and icons. That image is an impostor. I am quite certain that you're looking at the image of Lucifer.

The cross is a very ancient pagan symbol, it predates Christianity. It symbolizes nature worship - air, earth, fire, water, thus the four points of the cross. It is a symbol of death. In ancient times, human sacrifices are part of their rituals. The cross is merely an instrument to sacrifice a human being for their deity. Death is the curse of that cross (tree). As the Bible says, "curse is anyone who hangs on that tree".

Jesus was crucified on that cross in order to neutralize it's power of death with life for he is sinless. Death cannot have a hold of him because it only holds sinners. Jesus has conquered the power of that cursed cross in evident of his resurrection after 3 days.

Yes, it is highly probable that the abomination will be that cursed cross. The anti-Christ will be that one who we all recognize as Jesus - long hair, nordic looking man. But, this is merely an impostor.

This is a great deception. Many Christians will fall for this trap thinking that this is the 2nd coming of Jesus.

This may offend some people, but I suggest to do a research with regards to origins of the cross and the false image of Jesus. Clue : Jesus was a Jew.



posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 09:35 PM
link   

Originally posted by Locoman8
Two things, the first resurrection (of the dead) does not happen until the 2nd coming of Christ. How do they go up before the raptured living ones? Also, the Lord will come with a shout and with a blast from the trumpet of God. Keep this trumpet thing in mind. I thought the rapture was suppose to be a secretive snatching away. How is a shout and trumpet blast secretive?


The first resurrection will happen on the 7th Trumpet (last) and on the 7th Plague. God will shout, "Come up here!" The dead Christians will rise first including the 2 Witnesses of God and will be ruptured. The next batch will be those who are left alive - two men will be working on the filed, one will taken, the other left.

They will all escape the terrible calamity of the Great Tribulation that will happen on the 7th trumpet and on the 7th plague. The whole Universe will be destroyed by fire - "the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give it's light, and the stars of the heaven..."

However, God stopped this calamity for the sake of the 144,000 Israelite, the house of Jacob. He will gather his "elect" - the 144,000 Israelite during his 2nd coming which is during the Great Tribulation.

Apart from gathering his "elect", he will also gather those who have repented during the Great Tribulation - the multitudes in white robes.

In short:

7th Trumpet/7th Plague - the rapture of the Christians - dead or alive just prior to the Great Tribulation where the Universe is destroyed by fire. This is the 1st Resurrection.

The Great Tribulation - Cut short for the sake of the elect 144,000 Jews. A special trumpet will be blown distinct from the 7th and last trumpet. Jews were gathered during Christ 2nd coming. Others who repented, were gathered as well.



posted on Oct, 29 2009 @ 04:25 PM
link   
reply to post by amitheone
 
If what you say is correct then Luke 21:36 is of no effect:


"Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Does it say "ALL" these things that shall come to pass, or does it say the "end" of all these things that shall come to pass?

My understanding of "ALL" is = "from beginning to end".



posted on Oct, 29 2009 @ 09:01 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Note that to escape doesn't necessarily mean to be carried away to heaven. Revelation 12 talks about a woman who bore a Son. The woman is depicted as the nation of Israel and the Church (spiritual Israel). The dragon (Satan) is waiting to devour the Child but is unsuccessful as the Child becomes a Man and later accends to heaven. Now the woman is kept safe in the wilderness for 1260 days (3 1/2 years) which is the length of the GREAT TRIBULATION. The dragon is furious and devours and persecutes the offspring of this woman.

What I get out of this is that The woman, first known to be the nation of Israel and then after the birth of the Man (Christ) is considered the Church of God. This Church is hidden in the wilderness for the length of the Tribulation though some of the righteous (offspring) are presecuted and martyred in the name of Christ. Even Israel was considered to be the "Church in the Wilderness" which really articulates this point.

Also, to escape all things can mean to die before the tribulation. I'm just saying, it doesn't mean they are carried to heaven when it says to "escape all things".



posted on Oct, 29 2009 @ 09:10 PM
link   
reply to post by Locoman8
 

I realize that my friend, in fact there will be 2 billion people dead from the Gog/Magog war and the pestilence to follow it.

It cannot be a "blessed hope" for people to escape "ALL" these things which must come to pass" If there is NO Hope to escape ANY of these things which must come to pass.

Makes zero sense that way.



posted on Oct, 29 2009 @ 11:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by amitheone
 
If what you say is correct then Luke 21:36 is of no effect:


"Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Does it say "ALL" these things that shall come to pass, or does it say the "end" of all these things that shall come to pass?

My understanding of "ALL" is = "from beginning to end".




When I read scriptures, I make sure I read all, starting from the very first verse so I can get an understanding of the whole context.

I'll take the key passages:

Luke 21 -

25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."


33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 34 "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35 For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

...

According to context, this period talks about heavens and the earth being destroyed. There will be signs in the cosmos and the whole Universe will be shaken. People will faint in terror as they see the coming of the end of the world. This is the Great Tribulation where everything in the Universe will be destroyed by fire.

It will come upon ALL the people on Earth.

God told the Christians to be always alert and pray that we are worthy to escape ALL that is about to happen to the whole Universe where it's destruction is imminent.

God warned the Christians not to follow the ways of the world and be carried away by its lust and evil. Otherwise, the day of destruction will come upon All those on the Earth unexpectedly, like a trap.



posted on Oct, 30 2009 @ 04:32 AM
link   
reply to post by amitheone
 
For one thing, Gog/Magog war comes before the Tribulation, and I'm sure WW III where 2 billion people will die perhaps might be kinda scary for some people. Might just be me though...

I mean, if you hear our granparent's talk they were terrified during WW II, and only a "measly" 55 million people died in that war...

A key verse is here:

"At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

That clearly describes Christ coming to EARTH to set up his millennial kingdom, what did the angels tell the apostles who witnessed Jesus ascend from Earth into heaven? That He would return to Earth in the exact same manner.

And the bible tells us to the exact DAY when the Lord will return to Earth, to the mount of olives to battle the antichrist, "with His saints, not "for" His saints, and set up His kingdom. We are told it will be EXACTLY 1,260 days from the abomination of desolation.

So how can the rapture and His coming to Earth be foretold to the EXACT day and at the EXACT time, as well as the Bible clearly saying the rapture would come "a thief in the night" if both happened at the same time?

Impossible.

I don't care what you do brother, as for me personally, I will continue to "watch" and "pray" that I be accounted worthy to escape "ALL" those things which must come to pass. If you don't want to do that then you're fully entitled to count 1,260 days from the abomination of desolation, you can put an "X" on your calendar when you see the abomination of desolation happen in the temple.



posted on Oct, 30 2009 @ 07:32 AM
link   

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by amitheone
 
For one thing, Gog/Magog war comes before the Tribulation, and I'm sure WW III where 2 billion people will die perhaps might be kinda scary for some people. Might just be me though...


According to scriptures, Revelation 20:8, Gog and Magog war will start after the 1,000 years have finished. This will be Satan's last attempt to overthrow God and His Kingdom. In numbers, they will be like the sands of the seashore - the word "billions" could not even describe the sheer number of rebels.

I see where your view perspective is from. There's only 1 type of tribulation from your view, that is the tribulation where the Anti-Christ rules. This is merely Satan's grand persecution of the Christians where they push the gospel to the very end of the world. The 2 witnesses of God will join in to help them because Satan's minions is persecuting them and killing them. Whoever did not repent, will be meted with the plagues brought about by the 2 prophets of God.

This will carry on until the 6th Trumpet/Plague - the 1st battle of Armageddon. The 2 prophets of God vs. the world's army followed by Lucifer. The 7th and last Trumpet/Plague will be the resurrection/rapture of the Christians where they will be caught up to heaven. Then, the Great Tribulation begins - The End of the World - A cosmic destruction.

The war you are mentioning before the rule of the Anti-Christ (the tribulation), most have already been fulfilled - Kingdom against Kingdom, nation against nation. Read the history of the middle east just right after Christ death and resurrection. We have empires (kingdoms) vs. Empires (Daniel's prophecy), the fall and rise of Empires, and then we have nation against nation - WW1 and WW2, Korean War, Vietnam, Cold War, Israel 6 day war with 5 Arab nations, Iraq vs. Iran, Iraq vs. Kuwait, 9/11, US vs. Iraq. But, Jesus said, the end is not yet.

We are just right about the coming of the False Messiah and the construction of the 3rd temple of Jerusalem where he will reign. Before this happens, we will be experiencing weird climatic events never been seen before. Flooding, earthquakes with frequency, tsunamis, Hurricanes, global warming, etc. But, Jesus said, the end is not yet.

But, when you see that Abomination set up in the temple, you can already count - 3.5 years and some months before Christians are raptured.

The Christians don't actually wait for the 2nd coming of Jesus, but God's shout for us to get raptured in heaven before the destruction of the Universe.

The 2nd coming of Christ with His saints, will only come during the Great Tribulation where He will stop it so he can gather the 144,000 house of Jacob. The chosen Israelite will be the ones who will wait for his 2nd coming, which no one knows when.



And the bible tells us to the exact DAY when the Lord will return to Earth, to the mount of olives to battle the antichrist, "with His saints, not "for" His saints, and set up His kingdom. We are told it will be EXACTLY 1,260 days from the abomination of desolation.


No. Only the Father knows when Christ will come on Earth with His saints.

What we can only know is the day of our redemption, that is, our rapture to heaven.

From Daniel's book:

The 1,260 days is 42months or 3.5 years - Two witnesses prophecy ends.

The 1,290 days is 43 months or 3.5 years + 30days - From the set up of the Abomination

The 1,335 days is 44.5 months or 3.5 years + 45 days - Blessed are those who wait and reaches the end of the 1,335 days - our rapture to heaven.

We will then be transformed into immortality, a powerful supernatural body.


So how can the rapture and His coming to Earth be foretold to the EXACT day and at the EXACT time, as well as the Bible clearly saying the rapture would come "a thief in the night" if both happened at the same time?

Impossible.


Reading the whole passage will give you a correct understanding:

1 Thessalonians 5

1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

.....

The day of the Lord and his 2nd Coming are different things. The day of the Lord is merely God's wrath of the Great Tribulation according to this context.

Christians are not in darkness so that this day should surprise us like a thief. We know exactly when our rapture is. Times and dates are not necessary anymore as a reminder because Daniel has already provided that information in which all of us already understood. Those in the dark, however, that day will indeed come like a thief in the night - a sudden destruction. But, we are not in the dark so that this day will surprise us, because we know when it is exactly.

However, the 2nd coming of Christ is not known. It is not written.

If you say the day of the Lord is his 2nd coming, then, why is he coming alone? Revelation says He will come with his armies of Saints.

So, we need to understand this according to context of the whole passage, and not some singled out sentence because it will become vague and confusing.

But, your rapture is different. It comes before the reign of the anti-Christ. This is your Tribulation. While you are *supposedly* in heaven, we are here on Earth pushing and advancing the kingdom of God like mighty warriors, be it death or persecution, we will not shrink with fear. We will battle this head on. There are a lot of people in the world that needs the truth. And, we are here for them so that they may hear and be saved as well.

Though we are few, we are fearless. We will push the gospel of the Kingdom of God no matter the cost. We are not trained to escape but to fight till the very last drop of blood. We will die in this process, yes, with very few survivors. Though we die, yet we shall live forever in the resurrection.

We do not love our lives so as to shrink from death! For the Lord's glory, our Mighty King and God! Haroo! Haroo!



posted on Oct, 30 2009 @ 07:48 AM
link   
reply to post by amitheone
 
Hopefully your view is correct, then Christians who persevere and die for the Lord can receive the reward of a martyr. Something I've wanted very dearly and been saddened I might not be able to achieve if raptured.

I still disagree with your understanding of the rapture, however if you're right then the hope still is alive!

Thanks for the debate brother.



posted on Oct, 30 2009 @ 11:01 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


"Thief in the night" refers to those who are asleep and unaware of the times we live in. Those of us who watch and are sober will know the signs of the times. "Theif in the night" does not refer to a "rapture" but to the actual "tribulation" events taking place. And to be hidden in the wilderness is a form of being accounted worthy of escaping all things. I get your point of view. It's the standard protestant view. It use to be what I believed but all of the rapture verses that I gave on my first post lead to the 2nd coming of Christ AFTER the tribulation. Peace and safety to you brother. Either way, the promise is still there as you said to the previous poster.



posted on Oct, 31 2009 @ 02:52 AM
link   

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


"Thief in the night" refers to those who are asleep and unaware of the times we live in. Those of us who watch and are sober will know the signs of the times. "Theif in the night" does not refer to a "rapture" but to the actual "tribulation" events taking place. And to be hidden in the wilderness is a form of being accounted worthy of escaping all things. I get your point of view. It's the standard protestant view. It use to be what I believed but all of the rapture verses that I gave on my first post lead to the 2nd coming of Christ AFTER the tribulation. Peace and safety to you brother. Either way, the promise is still there as you said to the previous poster.


I don't agree, the rapture will come just like "in the times or noah" and "in the times of Lot" meaning everyone was eating, drinking, marrying, living life as normal with not a care for tomorrow and then wham sudden destruction was upon them.

The parable of the ten virgins, and the "goodman of the house" parable would make zero sense if the rapture happened after 42 continuous months of Christians being beheaded for refusing to take the mark of the beast and after 6 bowl judgments.

"last trump" can mean the 7th trumpet, however it can ALSO mean the last trump of the Feast of Trumpets, which is a parallel feast of the rapture. The last trump of the Feast of Trumpets is the longest and loudest blast that is preformed and signifies the start of the feast of trumpets. Interesting to note that the Feast of Trumpets cannot begin unless 2 witnesses of the new moon report to the high priest that they have seen the first crack of the new moon. It has a 48 hour window for it's beginning. (no man can know it's day and time).

The parable of the 10 virgins makes no sense if the rapture happens after 42 months of Christians being murdered for refusing to worship the beast or accept the mark, and after the 6th bowl judgment. The rapture must happen as "a thief in the night", unexpected/without warning. remember all 10 virgins in the parable are betrothed to the Lord for marriage, they have drank the cup (communion) and are considered married only waiting for the consummation of the marriage, however only half of them are ready and waiting/watching for Him to arrive and take them to the consummation and the marriage feast to follow.

I didn't understand the rapture doctrine until I learned about the Feast of Trumpets and the processes of the Ancient Jewish Wedding Ceremony.

Also look at the rapture from the standpoint of the Feast of Trumpets which the rapture parallels.

The rapture can never come as a "surprise" if it's after 42 months of Christians being murdered for their faith and after 6 bowl judgments. Only a Christian is a coma in a hospital would be caught off guard by this end of the tribulation timing.

[edit on 31-10-2009 by NOTurTypical]



posted on Oct, 31 2009 @ 04:08 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


First off, you're preaching to the wrong choir with the "Feast of Trumpets" because I celebrate the Holy Day along with the other six Holy Day Feasts. The Feast of Trumpets signifies the Tribulation and the 2nd Coming of Christ. Note that in my way of thinking, the 2nd Coming is also the time of the rapture. This all happens after the tribulation.

Let's observe the actual verse in the bible that we get the word "rapture" from.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Now in your theory of a secret snatching away as a thief in the night, Jesus would not be known to anyone else and it would be a secret calling to the saints. Correct me if I'm wrong. But right there where I underlined the words it speaks of a great shout and voice of an archangel along with the sound of the trumpet of God. This does not sound very secretive to me. In fact, it seems as if Jesus is wanting His presence to be known when the rapture happens. The trumpet of God is the 7th trumpet of revelation because it's the trumpet that announces the Kingdom of God. It's the last trumpet, the trumpet of God, and the 7th trumpet. 7 is the number of completion just as 7 days complete a week. 7 months complete the harvest season. 7 holy day feasts. 7 church eras. 7 lamp posts. 7 stars. etc... So the very last trumpet would indeed be the 7th trumpet.

As far as the 10 virgins goes, it is a parable teaching that you should always be ready and on the watch for the time of redemption. Just as the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man was just a parable teaching that people will get their due reward in the end and not some form of proof that Hell is a pit of fire where humans are tormented for eternity. Parables shall not be taken literally but should be studied for the moral of the stories. If you took a parable literal, we'd all be little seeds falling in various places. Once again, my christian friend, don't tell me about the feast of trumpets unless you yourself are a keeper of that feast. Peace and safety to you my friend.



posted on Oct, 31 2009 @ 06:08 PM
link   
reply to post by Locoman8
 


I'm glad we agree that the "last trump" signifies the last trumpet of the beginning of Rosh Hashanah, and not the "last trumpet" in Revelation. I can't figure out for the life of me why some Christians believe this to be so since Paul and Jesus didn't have to explain to the Jews they were talking about when they said "last trump". The Jews already knew precisely what "last trump" meant the beginning of Rosh Hashanah because Revelation WASN'T EVEN WRITTEN BY THAT POINT IN TIME!!! lol

But I disagree with your take on the 10 virgins, with a Jewish wedding when the woman drank the cup offered by the bridegroom they were engaged, or married basically but what "sealed the deal" was the consummation a year later. So these virgins in the parable were all "brides of Christ", were all espoused to Him, all Christians.

It's not that 5 were Christians and 5 were "unsaved", all 10 virgins were the brides of Christ. However, 5 were ready, prepared, and waiting on Him to come and take them to the marriage supper.

One of the keys to understand why I believe not all Christians will be raptured and have to go through the Tribulation "to wash their robes" is because not all saved folk are living right, they are living carnally still which is a way of thinking they are "committing adultery" with their faith. And the Bible clearly states that judgment must first come to the House of God before it will ever come to the unsaved world. And that some people will go to the marriage supper of the Lamb, and others will have to wash their robes clean in tribulation.

Not all who have called on the Lord for their salvation are serving Him faithfully in word and spirit, that's sad, but that fact should motivate all of us to examine our hearts, where are they? Who are we serving? Are we still on the throne in our heart or is the Lord?



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 02:08 AM
link   

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Locoman8
 


I'm glad we agree that the "last trump" signifies the last trumpet of the beginning of Rosh Hashanah, and not the "last trumpet" in Revelation. I can't figure out for the life of me why some Christians believe this to be so since Paul and Jesus didn't have to explain to the Jews they were talking about when they said "last trump". The Jews already knew precisely what "last trump" meant the beginning of Rosh Hashanah because Revelation WASN'T EVEN WRITTEN BY THAT POINT IN TIME!!! lol

But I disagree with your take on the 10 virgins, with a Jewish wedding when the woman drank the cup offered by the bridegroom they were engaged, or married basically but what "sealed the deal" was the consummation a year later. So these virgins in the parable were all "brides of Christ", were all espoused to Him, all Christians.

It's not that 5 were Christians and 5 were "unsaved", all 10 virgins were the brides of Christ. However, 5 were ready, prepared, and waiting on Him to come and take them to the marriage supper.

One of the keys to understand why I believe not all Christians will be raptured and have to go through the Tribulation "to wash their robes" is because not all saved folk are living right, they are living carnally still which is a way of thinking they are "committing adultery" with their faith. And the Bible clearly states that judgment must first come to the House of God before it will ever come to the unsaved world. And that some people will go to the marriage supper of the Lamb, and others will have to wash their robes clean in tribulation.

Not all who have called on the Lord for their salvation are serving Him faithfully in word and spirit, that's sad, but that fact should motivate all of us to examine our hearts, where are they? Who are we serving? Are we still on the throne in our heart or is the Lord?



I totally understand what you are saying. I understand why you believe it but you are completely avoiding what I was asking you. If Jesus was coming like a thief in the night to snatch away His saints before His second-coming, why is the actual rapture verse speaking of a SHOUT, VOICE OF AN ARCHANGEL, and THE LAST TRUMPET? It's not secretive at all. It is indeed the second coming of Christ. Besides that, it says the dead in Christ will rise first. If this is the case, the first of the resurrected dead (after Christ Himself) would be the two witnesses who are killed 3 1/2 days before the second coming of Christ. The witnesses are resurrected in front of all to see. This is followed by the mass resurrection of the dead saints followed by those who are still alive who change into spirit form "in the twinkling of an eye" and "meet Him in the air." Notice also that these verses speak of the saints "meeting" Jesus in the air but not being carried off to heaven. This is because the meeting is a greeting followed by an escorting to earth. That's right! The saints escort Jesus to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. Just as prophecied in the OT prophecy of Zechariah, the Mount of Olives will be split in two as Jesus returns to earth.

Believe me when I say, I'm not mocking you or your point of view but maybe there are things you have missed in the grand scheme of things. I already know you don't believe in the doctrine I follow, though I can back my beliefs up with biblical doctrine 100%. The rapture itself is of great conflict and confusion. The only real choice you can get from reading scripture without ever hearing of the pre-trib or mid-trib rapture is that of the post-trib beliefs because the verses point to that time. The "ten virgins" parable is something you're reading into IMHO even though it represents the marriage feast. Note also that the actual consumation of the marriage occurs only when the New Jerusalem comes out of heaven to the New Earth AFTER the 1000 years of peace and 100 year "White Throne Judgement." Could it be possible that the ten virgins are referring to a post-tribulation occurence? After all, the destruction of the beast-empire follows Christ's return with the battle of Armageddon. Maybe these five virgins who missed their ticket will take in the destruction of a sinful empire or live on to the melennium of peace. The possibilities of these virgins in this parabel are endless and not subject to the specific notion of a "pre-trib" rapture. Just my thoughts. Don't take them too personal please.



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 06:46 AM
link   
reply to post by Locoman8
 


How could the "last trump" statement be referring to the 7th trumpet/bowl judgment when the Book of Revelation wasn't even written at the time?

The vision of the end times was given to John when he was the last surviving apostle on the island of Patmos when he was in prison.

The "last trump" is an idiom known to Jews, it means the start of Rosh Hashanah.



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 10:15 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


It doesn't matter when the book of Revelation was written. Truth be told, it was an extention of Daniel's prophecies. How can the 7th trumpet not be the last trumpet? It's the last one mentioned in the bible. If the 7th isn't the last trumpet, then the rapture is even further from the return of Christ, by your reasoning of the last trumpet. Either the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet or it comes before the last trumpet. Which is it to you? Either way, you find yourself in a predicament since you believe in the pre-trib rapture and it happens on the last trumpet.



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 11:04 PM
link   
reply to post by Locoman8
 
There is also a "last trumpet" signifying the beginning of Rosh Hashanah every year.

The term "last trump" was very significant to the Jews, it meant the start of Rosh Hashanah.

Are you sure the 7 bowl judgments are described in Daniel????



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 10:38 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I didn't say the bowl judgements were in Daniel. I said that Revelation was an extention of Daniel's prophecies. The 4 beasts of Daniel describes the 4th beast as different than the other three. Revelation gives more of a fuller picture of this "fourth beast" or "revived Roman Empire" or "New Babylon." Don't put words in my mouth.

And yes, the last trumpet is what signifies the "feast of trumpets" but do you even know what the feast of trumpets is? I celebrate it as a christian because the Jewish symbolism of this Holy Day is seen in christianity with the return of Christ. The feast of trumpets is the celebration of a future return of the messiah so this "last trumpet" is indeed the trumpet that ushers in the new melennium:


Revelation 11

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!

So yes, the 7th trumpet in revelation is indeed the same "last trumpet" of the rapture verses. If you'd like, I can explain to you the significance of all seven holy day feasts and what they mean to christianity. Much more meaning than christmas or easter (two christianized pagan holidays).



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 08:12 AM
link   

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I didn't say the bowl judgements were in Daniel. I said that Revelation was an extention of Daniel's prophecies. The 4 beasts of Daniel describes the 4th beast as different than the other three. Revelation gives more of a fuller picture of this "fourth beast" or "revived Roman Empire" or "New Babylon." Don't put words in my mouth.


However you tried to imply that the prophecies were already prevalent in Daniel when i pointed out when Paul discussed the rapture at the "last trumpet" that Revelation wasn't written yet, so it was impossible for him to have been describing something that wasn't yet revealed to John. I've been a ardent student of Eschatology for a VERY long time, you don't need to try and inform me of the visions of Daniel.


And yes, the last trumpet is what signifies the "feast of trumpets" but do you even know what the feast of trumpets is?


Yes, it pictures the rapture, the "firstfruits" harvest.


I celebrate it as a christian because the Jewish symbolism of this Holy Day is seen in christianity with the return of Christ.


Kinda like how I look at the symbolism of the Jewish wedding ceremony as well and how it perfectly pictures a pre-tribulation rapture, not a post.




So yes, the 7th trumpet in revelation is indeed the same "last trumpet" of the rapture verses. If you'd like, I can explain to you the significance of all seven holy day feasts and what they mean to christianity. Much more meaning than christmas or easter (two christianized pagan holidays).


No, the last rumpet in Revelation is God's wrath, the rapture is not wrath. And you're preaching to the choir about the Holy feasts, and how Easter and Christmas are pagan and Occult sabbats. I don't celebrate either.




top topics



 
1
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join