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Rapture or tribulation, which is first ?

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posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 05:21 PM
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reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic
 


I'm not even going to dignify that.

It's absurd tripe.




posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 05:29 PM
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To you perhaps, it's easy to deny what you have no insight into, or are you denying what you know, being taught that's the WAY? It's easy to say what's not happening allthough you know what Is happening.... I know a coward when I see one, and I have never been punnished for telling the truth. I have never had the need to be naked in the main street when "noone" sees me (trust me, we see more than a couple of lots!), I just go and do what I have to do for me and mine to survive, while others are surfing the "other side" or I'm on the "other side". I don't care for goldfish, just myself basically.

[edit on 22/10/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 05:40 PM
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reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic
 


Alright, you claim you can "SEE" a person's 'thoughts', so:

Prove it to us.

Tell me what I am thinking. Any thought that I have had or will have at the time you read this post will do.



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 05:54 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I'm not claiming anything. Just that there are disturbing things happening that just can't be explained beyond the fact that it is happening. I don't know if it was a hundred years ago this guy just jumped off the roof or if it will happen in a hundred years of if it happens right now. It just happens and the "we" or the "us" witness it.... See?



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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It may be trivial in the beginning, but after a while you start wondering why everyone keeps their mouths shut about it. We all know everything about everyone, but some of the "us" will suffer if we speak up. However, I and certain others can and will say the "little things" we know. And through being in the limelight we bring scrutiny to everything layed down. Trust me, if you lie about what you hear and see, if you are among the ones that "see and still sees not, hear and still hears not", you will in the end-ez live, but live not. Would you really like to NOT be in the kingdom of Heaven, or have !"the Holy Spirit confess Not what he knoweth about thou, and what would benefit your case?"!

Truth lies beyond, and there is no way you can lie or hide anything in your life when TSHTF. And it happens regularily. Thomas?

www.youtube.com...

[edit on 22/10/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 06:19 PM
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Okay, back on topic...

This is nonsense IMHO, and has nothing to do with the OP.



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Okay, back on topic...

This is nonsense IMHO, and has nothing to do with the OP.


What if this was the most ultimate "on-topic" discussion you ever joined?

"Don't sing so loud that the lovers are disturbed...."

There are a couple of fun facts in between here:
Lovers? (Check out no 17, they always think they're not seen....).

[edit on 22/10/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]



posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by Grayelf2009
Seems to me that alot of christians think that they are gonna get swooped up before SHTF. I seem to remember reading that we the christians were gonna get kicked around pretty good for a while then taken, then the war of Armageddon.

I would like to here thoughts and references to answer this.Or is it all in how one interperts it?

Personally I would love stay around long enough to take a swing or two at satan, baseball bat would be fine.


1st Stage - Construction of the third Temple of Jerusalem

2nd Stage - Earth Changing Events - climate, global freezing, earthquakes, famines, tsunamis, pestilence (but the end is not yet - false end time)

3rd Stage - Calamity stops

4th Stage - The coming of Lucifer (the false messiah). Will sit in the throne of the 3rd temple located in the inner rooms. Will claim himself to be the Messiah/The Christ/God. Many people were deceived and thought this is the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ and that he stopped the calamity. Everyone will worship him except those people of the book of life.

5th Stage - Forced mark upon everyone to glorify and worship him. True Christians will not take this mark of the beast. Christians will be persecuted and slaughtered.

6th Stage - The two deadly prophets arise. Will warn the world to repent. Will bring plagues and calamity to those who did not repent. "Don't worship Lucifer. Don't persecute the Christians."

7th Stage - After the two prophets had issued the 5 deadly plagues, the world's army will combine at Armageddon. The two prophets even gave ease of travel by drying the Euphrates river for the armies coming from the East - numbering hundreds, if not billions of soldiers. All fully armed with tanks, artillery, fighter jets, missiles, etc. Will combine with the armies already assembled in Armageddon.

8th Stage - This will be an epic battle. Two deadly prophets of God vs. the whole combined armies of the world. Battle ensues and 1/3 of the world's army wiped out. The 2 prophets remained unharmed whatsoever.

9th Stage - Lucifer who sat in the throne of the 3rd temple got furious. His armies were a total failure. Went out of the temple to do battle with the 2 prophets of God. The whole world will shake as this battle ensues. The former archangel of God versus the 2 prophets. He defeated both of them. The 2 prophets lay dead in Golgotha where their Lord was crucified.

10th Stage - The whole world were rejoicing, drinking, making merry, exchanging gifts, and shouting, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"

11th Stage - After 3.5 days, the two prophets of God were brought to life. Everyone in their presence were shocked and every face turned pale.

12th Stage - God shouted "Come up here!" - The rapture begins. Every Christian dead or alive were caught up to heaven along with the two prophets of God.

13th Stage - The GREAT TRIBULATION begins. A great Universal cosmic calamity will begin. Everything in the Universe will melt with fervent heat. Just like the flood before, 8 were saved in the ark. This time, God raptured all his faithful children to be with him in heaven where it is safe and secured from the terrible calamity of the Great Tribulation.

14th Stage - God stopped the calamity for the sake of the 144,000 tribe Jacob (Israel). God gathered all of them and also those who repented during the Great Tribulation (multitudes in white robe).

15th Stage - The 2nd coming of Jesus with his armies of heaven (transformed Christians) to establish his kingdom. But, first He must wipe out the armies who serve Lucifer and those who had the mark and still worship him.

16th Stage - 2nd battle ensues in Armageddon - The armies of heaven led by Jesus and the armies of the beast led by Lucifer. The armies of Lucifer and his worshipers were all slaughtered.

17th Stage - The false prophet and Lucifer were burned in the lake of fire.

18th Stage - Satan bound for 1,000 years. Millennium reign of Christ and His saints starts.



posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 07:49 AM
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reply to post by amitheone
 
How do you propose the antichrist can come to power and begin those things in the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation and "deceive the world" if you have 1 billion Christians on Earth screaming "That's the antichrist!!!"

Doesn't make sense. The only logical choice is for Christians who are alive to be removed prior to the antichrist taking power. He can't deceive the world with a billion folks pointing out his true identity to the world.

And Gog/Magog (WW III) comes before the 7 year peace deal is signed with Israel and the world. They will begin building the temple when the peace deal is signed.



posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by amitheone
 
How do you propose the antichrist can come to power and begin those things in the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation and "deceive the world" if you have 1 billion Christians on Earth screaming "That's the antichrist!!!"


No.

The anti-Christ (Lucifer) will only rule in the "middle of the seven" and not the start of the first 3 1/2 years. He will abolish the daily sacrifice for he will claim himself as the Christ who is the ultimate sacrifice for sins. There will be not a need to sacrifice animals to atone for sins anymore. He will be an imposter pretending to be Christ.

There are 2 anti-Christs in Revelation. One is the master (Lucifer) and one is the servant (false prophet - Vicarius Filli Dei). They will occupy the 3rd temple of Jerusalem.

In the first 3 1/2 years, the false prophet - the vicar of the false messiah will sign that peace covenant with many so that the Jews could finally build that 3rd temple on the temple mount without any protest from the Muslim nations because their Dome of the Rock, Islam most holiest site is located at the temple mount.

This came about because the Earth is undergoing some major calamity - great earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, pestilence, famines, hurricanes, etc are increasing in great magnitude. They think that this is a punishment from God in heaven. So, in order to atone for God's anger, the 3rd temple was built in order to resume the animal sacrifices to atone for man's sins so that the calamity will stop. Everyone thinks this is the end of the world.

But Christ said, the end it not yet. This is merely a false end of the world scenario.

Once the calamity stops, Lucifer (the false messiah) will come down from heaven to deceive all of humanity. He will come with great supernatural lying signs and wonders in heaven.

Many people indeed will be deceived.

Many Christians will believe this lie and fall away from the faith. Some will fall way because they fear the prosecutions as they want to hold on to their life. Some will fall way because every possession and livelihood they have will be taken away (can't buy and sell without the mark). Christians will also be betrayed by their own family and friends. For many will fall away and betray one another - brother against brother.

There are no 1 billion Christians, my friend. Christians today are even divided because of doctrinal differences.


Doesn't make sense. The only logical choice is for Christians who are alive to be removed prior to the antichrist taking power. He can't deceive the world with a billion folks pointing out his true identity to the world.


No.

Christians will be prosecuted. During this time they will push the gospel until the time of the end by preaching the gospel to every nation, tongue, and tribe. Satan will make war with the saints, those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. These are the ones who did not accept the mark of the beast because they are in the Book of Life.

If you say, Christians will be removed (rapture) when the anti-Christ rules, then, Revelation is wrong in saying that Satan will make war with the saints and also those in the book of life who will not accept the mark.

What you are saying is that some Christian will be raptured and some will not. So, what is the difference between them? Aren't they all saints? Aren't they all in the book of life?

What is also the difference between the Christian Martyrs during the time of Rome and today? Why weren't they raptured?

What is so special of these select group of Christians who supposedly will be raptured during the rule of the anti-Christ?

We will only be raptured during the Great Tribulation where there will be a great universal cosmic calamity, just like before the flood came, Noah and his family came on board the ark, and not 120 years earlier.

Please note that there are 2 types of tribulation - one the "tribulation of those days" (Satan's rule) and the "Great Tribulation" (at the end of the 7 years). Note the superlative "Great".

Christians are confused between tribulations. But, all that is required is to recognize which is which according to context.



posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 10:56 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


NOTurTypical:

I am so sorry that I made a typo at a very important sentence to my post. I most certianly do believe in the Rapture and unlike you younger folk, I want to go as soon as I can before the troubles start.

Please forgive me for not correcting my post in a more timely manner.


Peace to all,
Grandma



posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 06:17 PM
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The Gentiles did not believe in the God of the Israelites before the Messiah came. The Jews didn't accept him when he came. Why would the ancestors of the Gentiles think they would fare much better when it was their ways the Israelites stumbled on? One of which was idolatry.

Deuteronomy
4:16 Lest you corrupt yourselves, and make yourself an engraved image in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

Pslms 135:15 The idols of the nations are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. 135:16 They have mouths, but they can’t speak. They have eyes, but they can’t see. 135:17 They have ears, but they can’t hear; neither is there any breath in their mouths. 135:18 Those who make them will be like them; yes, everyone who trusts in them.

Why do the ancestors of the Gentiles think they can disregard the very laws they claim to live by?

Jonah 2:8 Those who regard lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

The same people I know who claim to believe in the rapture also believe when you die you go to heaven but also say they believe in the resurrection. I asked one person if you believe in going to heaven at death how can you be raised at the resurrection you would have to be put back into the grave first wouldn't you? They said yes that you are put back into the grave. I said in order for this to happen God would have to kill you first so he could resurrect you from the dead. To my amazement they admitted this is what happens. These are the same folks who put their trust in idols like the crucifix and all the lies that come from the head of their church who is jesus the antichrist.

www.newhopeforall.info...

[edit on 28-10-2009 by The Riley Family]



posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 08:43 PM
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reply to post by amitheone
 
I've heard the mid-trib arguments many many times, just don't agree my brother. No offense.

But you didn't answer my question, of course we know that when a man sets himself up the temple and declares to be God that is when the "time of JACOB'S" troubles begin.. but the Word also says that Israel will sign a "7 year peace deal" with the antichrist, and he will break it off 3 1/2 years into it.

So to ask again, how in the world can the antichrist sign a 7 year peace deal with Israel when oh, about a billion Christians worldwide would immediately scream" THAT'S THE ANTICHRIST!!! HE JUST SIGNED A 7 YEAR PEACE DEAL WITH ISRAEL!!!!!"

That 7 year peace treaty starts Daniel's 70th week. And my best guess it's a 7 year peace deal to end the Gog/Magog war.

You're correct, he won't start killing the Jews and Christians alive on Earth mid-way through the peace treaty, but anyone who has had a basic course in Eschatology knows that the peace deal between the antichrist's NWO and Israel will begin the 70th week.

And the minute the ink hits the paper for that deal the antichrist will be known if all us were still here on planet Earth.



posted on Oct, 27 2009 @ 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


NOTurTypical:

I am so sorry that I made a typo at a very important sentence to my post. I most certianly do believe in the Rapture and unlike you younger folk, I want to go as soon as I can before the troubles start.

Please forgive me for not correcting my post in a more timely manner.


Peace to all,
Grandma


Oh, that clears it up quite a bit!! lol

And yes, the idea of never having to taste death is the "blessed hope" we all share, but then again it would mean never having a chance to be martyred for the Lord and that carries a great reward from Him as well.

So, I'm torn... if it's the Lord's will I'll be taken, if not I have a goal for the tribulation as well.



posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 12:46 AM
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reply to post by amitheone
 



What you are saying is that some Christian will be raptured and some will not. So, what is the difference between them? Aren't they all saints? Aren't they all in the book of life?



HERE

Video 1 gives the foundation, but the answer to your question is in video 2.

Let me know your thoughts my brother in Christ Jesus.



posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 01:39 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by amitheone
 
I've heard the mid-trib arguments many many times, just don't agree my brother. No offense.


I'm not mid-trib, pre-trib, post trib, pre wrath. Their views are incomplete.

No offense taken.


But you didn't answer my question, of course we know that when a man sets himself up the temple and declares to be God that is when the "time of JACOB'S" troubles begin.. but the Word also says that Israel will sign a "7 year peace deal" with the antichrist, and he will break it off 3 1/2 years into it.


No.

It is not even a man. It's Lucifer, Satan incarnate in the flesh. This is Satan manifesting himself as a human being. Didn't he say he wants to be like the most high? Remember, there are 2 beasts of Revelation - The master and the servant. 2 anti-Christ.

Jacob's trouble will only begin during the time when the whole Universe will be destroyed with great fervent heat - The Great Tribulation. Before, the world was destroyed by water. Now, it will be destroyed by fire.

The 144,000 Israelite did not accept Christ, therefore, they are bound to perish in the great tribulation. But, God had compassion on them. He stopped the destruction for the sake of his beloved chosen people. They will then be gathered during the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ, which is during the great cosmic calamity. God had cut it short for the sake of his people.

Prior to this, the 144,000 were protected from Satan's wrath.



So to ask again, how in the world can the antichrist sign a 7 year peace deal with Israel when oh, about a billion Christians worldwide would immediately scream" THAT'S THE ANTICHRIST!!! HE JUST SIGNED A 7 YEAR PEACE DEAL WITH ISRAEL!!!!!"


No. Kindly refer to my previous message. Christians will be deceived. Many will fall away and betray one another. There won't be a billion Christian because they will be divided because of this deception and persecution.


That 7 year peace treaty starts Daniel's 70th week. And my best guess it's a 7 year peace deal to end the Gog/Magog war.


No.


You're correct, he won't start killing the Jews and Christians alive on Earth mid-way through the peace treaty, but anyone who has had a basic course in Eschatology knows that the peace deal between the antichrist's NWO and Israel will begin the 70th week.


No.

First 3.5 years = Earth turmoil - earthquakes, floods, tsunamis, etc. Peace covenant formulated by the false prophet (the 1st anti christ, beast) to build the 3rd temple. Animal sacrifice resumed to pacify God's anger, so they thought.

Second 3.5 years (last part) = Calamity stopped. Lucifer will manifest himself from heaven to enter in the 3rd temple. Will proclaim himself as the Christ and God. This is the 2nd Anti Christ, beast that will sit in the throne of the temple.

Persecution of Christians starts. 144,000 Jews protected from Satan's wrath.
The 2 witnesses arise to warn people to repent. Christians who did not worship this false Christ, will join in to spread the gospel and the warning as well all over the globe. They will be severely persecuted.



And the minute the ink hits the paper for that deal the antichrist will be known if all us were still here on planet Earth.


No. There are 2 anti-christs, 2 beasts mentioned in Revelation. The false prophet will sign the peace covenant. After the 3.5 years have been fulfilled, the 2nd anti-christ, Lucifer will appear and claim himself to be Christ.



posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 03:32 AM
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I will use the scriptures that are normally used to explain the rapture and show you why it's the exact opposite.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Two things, the first resurrection (of the dead) does not happen until the 2nd coming of Christ. How do they go up before the raptured living ones? Also, the Lord will come with a shout and with a blast from the trumpet of God. Keep this trumpet thing in mind. I thought the rapture was suppose to be a secretive snatching away. How is a shout and trumpet blast secretive?

1 Corinthians 15:50-53


50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Same argument. At the "LAST TRUMPET" the dead will be raised followed by the changed living rapture recepients. The resurrected dead are followed by the raptured living. Once again, the dead are not resurrected until the 2nd coming of Christ.


Matthew 24:29-31


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


This gives us the full picture. Verse 29 shows us this 2nd coming is AFTER the tribulation. Verse 30 shows that Jesus will decend from heaven coming on the clouds (note that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 mentions Jesus decending from heaven). Verse 31 shows that the angels make a great sound from a TRUMPET to gather the elect of God.


Revelation 11:


15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God...
(note that verses 17 and 18 depict the song of the 24 elders and does not contribute to my point... hence why I left it out).

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.


Okay, this is the great climax of my point. All three previous "rapture" verses mentions the trumpet of God, the Last Trumpet, or a GREAT Trumpet. This is obviously the 7th trumpet of revelation 11. Also note that verse 19 shows the signs in heaven like lightening, noises, thunderings, earthquakes and great hail. This is the same think mentioned in Matthew 24 which proves that the great trumpet in Mattew 24:31 is the 7th trumpet of revelation 11. The 7th trumpet announces God's kingdom on earth and the close of the tribulation, the 7 final bowl plagues and the battle of Armageddon to end the beast rule and confine Satan for 1000 years.


The rapture is Post-tribulation by proof from the bible. It is nothing more than the 1st resurrection. Those carried away who are still alive, are the ones raptured in the 1st resurrection, after the dead are resurrected.

Also, there was an argument of christians yelling that the antichrist was here if they were left and not raptured. This is utter nonsense as the antichrist will appear peaceful and very Obama-like in appearance. Also note that God's true church is a "small flock" as opposed to the 2 billion claimed christians on earth today.... 1.13 billion catholics and 900 million+ claiming some form of protestant religion. I conform to neither. I am of the Churches of God re-discovered by Herbert W. Armstrong from through christianity's 2000 year history. We are small in number and ridiculed for our beliefs which are easily proven as biblical and not just heresey or hypocritical. Just as most protestant and catholics put down the Jehovah's Witnesses, so is my church put down by most other christians as well.

It really doesn't matter what I say because a pre-tribber will always be a pre-tribber as long as they remain ignorant of hard evidence of post-trib and give weak arguments like the parable of the ten virgins or one taken and one left in the field. None of which speak of the rapture. The 10 virgins speaks of the 2nd coming of Christ while the one left and one taken are speaking of the result of tribulation.

Prove me wrong about the tribulation.

[edit on 10/28/2009 by Locoman8]



posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 06:19 AM
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Well, then we will just have to agree to disagree. I've heard all these things argued by a great number of people, from all beliefs and angles, I'll hold what I consider to be accurate and let my other Christian brothers hold their interpretations as well.

No worries brothers.



posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 07:14 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Good call my brother in Christ!
Amen to that.



posted on Oct, 28 2009 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by amitheone
 
of course we know that when a man sets himself up the temple and declares to be God that is when the "time of JACOB'S" troubles begin.. but the Word also says that Israel will sign a "7 year peace deal" with the antichrist, and he will break it off 3 1/2 years into it.

So to ask again, how in the world can the antichrist sign a 7 year peace deal with Israel when oh, about a billion Christians worldwide would immediately scream" THAT'S THE ANTICHRIST!!! HE JUST SIGNED A 7 YEAR PEACE DEAL WITH ISRAEL!!!!!"


Because the antichrist is actually jesus. The name adds up to 616 in Hebrew and 666 adds up to be the crucifix. So the crucifix will be the image that is the abomination of desolation that will be set up. The deception started back at the times of the writing of the scriptures. It is the false teachings that have accumulated to what we have now. I have been reading about the dead shall be raised at the last trumpet and alike in this thread but most christians believe when you die you go to heaven. Makes no sense how the dead are raised if they are already in heaven. Since the Messiah is the resurrection and since many deny the resurrection with their teachings then they are actually denying the Messiah. He says if you deny me I will deny you. They do much like this.

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction. 2:2 Many will follow their immoral ways, and as a result, the way of the truth will be maligned.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables.

www.newhopeforall.info...



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