Rapture or tribulation, which is first ?

Seems to me that alot of christians think that they are gonna get swooped up before SHTF. I seem to remember reading that we the christians were gonna get kicked around pretty good for a while then taken, then the war of Armageddon.

I would like to here thoughts and references to answer this.Or is it all in how one interperts it?

Personally I would love stay around long enough to take a swing or two at satan, baseball bat would be fine.

To Rapture or not to Rapture....that's the real question. I've noted that that there is no Biblical reference to a Rapture.

"The concept of the rapture, in connection with premillennialism, was expressed by the American Puritan father and son Increase and Cotton Mather. They held to the idea that believers would be caught up in the air, followed by judgments on the earth and then the millennium.[4][5] The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge (1738) and John Gill (1748) in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on the earth and Jesus' Second Coming. The concept of a pre-tribulation rapture was articulated by Baptist Morgan Edwards in an essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia.[6]

John Nelson Darby, considered the father of dispensationalism, first proposed the pre-tribulation rapture in 1827.[7]. This view was accepted among many other Plymouth Brethren in England. Darby and other prominent Brethren were part of the Brethren Movement which impacted American Christianity, primarily through their writings. Influences included the Bible Conference Movement, starting in 1878 with the Niagara Bible Conference. These conferences, which were initially inclusive of historicist and futurist premillennialism, led to an increasing acceptance of futurist premillennial views and the pre-tribulation rapture especially among Presbyterian, Baptist and Congregational members [8]. Popular books also contributed to acceptance of the pre-tribulation rapture, including William Eugene Blackstone's book Jesus is Coming published in 1878 and which sold more than 1.3 million copies, and the Scofield Reference Bible, published in 1909 and 1919 and revised in 1967.

The Catholic and Orthodox churches as well as the Reformed denominations have no tradition of a preliminary return of Christ and reject the doctrine, in part because they cannot find any reference to it among any of the early Church fathers and find its biblical foundation weak.[9]. Some also reject it because they interpret prophetic scriptures in either an amillennial or postmillennial fashion." Source

The concept of the Rapture -- pre or post Tribulation -- comes from a variety of sources and from variety of Biblical interpretations and even "inspirational" sources. Unfortunately, actual Biblical references to a Rapture are simply not to be found. So instead of hoping to be "lifted" up and being spared the Tribulation, I would start preparing for the worst. Either get down on your knees and start praying for all you are worth or start stockpiling the food and ammo.

[edit on 10/19/2009 by benevolent tyrant]

reply to post by Grayelf2009


This is a fantastic site/page:

Pretribulation rapture

And how i wish it were not biblical, that sounds odd you may think, but I would much rather have the opportunity to be martyred, there is a great reward for Christians who are martyred.

Many post-tribulationist writers have attacked the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine by claiming that it cannot be true because no church writer or reformer ever taught this doctrine until approximately 170 years ago. While the real question for sincere students of Scripture must be whether or not the Bible truly teaches this doctrine, the argument that no one ever saw this "truth" throughout eighteen hundred years of Church history has been very effective, causing many Christians to abandon their belief in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The only problem with their argument is that they are totally wrong."

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins"
(On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

4th Century pre-trib rapture teachings

There will be millions of people who will come to know the Lord during the tribulation period, who will refuse the antichrist, and who will refuse the mark of the beast. The Word says the angels and the 144,000 will preach the gospel to all corners of the Earth during the tribulation period, millions will come to faith during this time, and they will be the Christians who will have the blessed opportunity to be martyred for Christ Jesus.

God ALWAYS removes his faithful before pouring out His wrath on man. Lot, Noah etc. True, Christians have been greatly persecuted in the past, Nero, Inquisitions, Crusades, but these periods were persecution FROM satan, not wrath poured out from God. In fact the angel at Soddom and Gomorrah told Lot he could not destroy the city until he was gone from it by command of the Lord.

The last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation is the wrath of God poured out on the world for unbelief and siding with the antichrist. or the "Great Tribulation" if you will. This is the time the antichrist will seek to devour Christians and Jews. In fact, the war of God/Magog (WW III) will happen before the 7 year tribulation period starts, we as Christians who hold to the pre-trib theory may perish in this war before the "blessed hope" comes anyways.

No Christian is guaranteed they will have the change to partake in the blessed hope anyways, that's for God to decide, our focus should be on winning souls for the Lord while we are here.

Another great thing to look at is the parable of the virgins and the ancient Jewish wedding ceremony:

Ancient Jewish Wedding Ceremony/PreTrib rapture parallels

reply to post by NOTurTypical


yeah...that seems more in line with what I think I beleive is gonna happen. I think Im gonna remind the congergation next bible study.....should stir things up a little.

As for stockpiling ,Im trying....but the old truck has been breaking down and keeping me from my work.

My plan ( after SHTF) is to rescue and save people who were unaware.
More or less a real pain in the butt for the NWO

[edit on 10/20/2009 by Grayelf2009]

reply to post by Grayelf2009
Another aspect I thought about last night in bed:

True, Jesus only has 1 "second coming", but that is a visible second coming to EARTH, and the Word states at this 2nd coming to EARTH he comes with His saints to do battle with the antichrist and his armies. The rapture is when Jesus comes to the clouds only and comes for His saints and takes them to heaven for the "marriage supper of the Lamb".

And secondly, the rapture is stated that no man will know the 'day or hour" of his return for His saints, however, Revelation tells us EXACTLY when Jesus Christ will return to do battle with the antichrist, EXACTLY 1,260 days from the "abomination of desolation", when the antichrist sets himself up in the holy of holies in the 3rd Jewish temple and declares himself to be god and the false prophet demands all worship the beast, his image, and demand the mark taken or be put to death. The Word of God states this will happen exactly 1,260 days from that fulfillment of prophecy.

Lastly, I forgot to address something the moderator stated above. The word "rapture' is not in the Bible, it is an ENGLISH word that comes from the Greek word "HARPAZO" which is in the Greek New Testament, and the definition in Greek of "HARPAZO" is = "to snatch away, by force, by the hair, from immediate danger". Like if a person was about to fall off a cliff, his friend would "harpazo" him away from the edge of the cliff.





[edit on 20-10-2009 by NOTurTypical]

reply to post by Grayelf2009


Good for you good luck with your Bible study group. Hope they hear the truth of what you are sharing with them. I myself can not understand that there will be a rapture for God's children.

Peace,
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma


Hello Grandma!!!

You said you cannot understand why God would rapture His children so I'd like to ask you a simple question..

Can you think of or provide a verse from the OT when God did not lead His righteous children out of a place/situation before he poured out His wrath on that place/situation?

I cannot think of one, and perhaps I'm forgetting one instance. I do think of Noah, Lot, etc. And God always protected them while He poured out His wrath on wicked mankind.

Thanks Grandma

But what if this rapture idea is something completely different than what you think or have been taught it is?

I'm not saying "something" unique doesn't happen to the individual believer (you remember the narrow path that Jesus said few actually find) but shouldn't we question a teaching that leads a whole bunch of people blindly down a wide path?

Why didn't this rapture happen during WW1 or WW2?

Can anyone tell me why we are in a time of delay, where everything seems put on hold?

What if there is a secret coming before the second literal coming, but it is not something that happens en masse but way more personal?

If you think about it, the people who will make up the mysterious body of Christ will all have something in common. God's Spirit will be upon them, and they will dream dreams and have visions to lead people. Obviously, the other thing this body of people will have in common is they will all be anointed.

Are you guys 100% positive, that what you believe to be the rapture is the correct teaching or is there a remote chance that what it actually is - is personal anointings taking place, until the full number of Gentiles are brought into this mystical body? Then at the Second Coming - it will be the anointed who will be able to stand before the Son of Man, when all go out to meet him? Did he not teach that not everyone who says "Lord Lord" will enter into the kingdom of heaven? Did he not on more than one occasion use statistics of a 50/50 chance of getting this right?

If you ask me I think the rapture is a possibility in scripture. Remember that Jesus teaches that Christians will be persecuted at the end of times, revelations teaches that too.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
But what if this rapture idea is something completely different than what you think or have been taught it is?

We should never 'think" for ourselves, we should only go by what the Word says, if we think for ourselves part of the time and the rest of the time we go by the Word, then we are "double-minded" as James says in his letter. The Bible teaches a few things:

1. Not all believers will die a physical death.
   
2. Those who won't taste physical death will be 'changed', 'in the twinkling of an eye' or instantaneously, and the 'corruptable changed for incorruptable', our bodies.
   

I'm not saying "something" unique doesn't happen to the individual believer (you remember the narrow path that Jesus said few actually find) but shouldn't we question a teaching that leads a whole bunch of people blindly down a wide path?

Jesus's path comment was speaking of salvation only, the rapture doctrine has nothing to do with salvation unless you consider only the saved will be raptured as "saints".

What Christ meant was HE was the narrow way, the ONLY way a person could be saved and receive the inheritance of eternal life. The "narrow way" is faith alone in Him and His redemptive work on the cross for our salvation. And even amongst Christians there are some who are not on the narrow way, there are some who claim to be Christians who are believing on Jesus + their own self-righteous works for salvation, or are believing that their baptism alone has saved them, etc. The "narrow way", or the "only way" if that's a better term, if faith in Him alone as LORD and that He alone can save us from our sins. (Thief on the cross)

Why didn't this rapture happen during WW1 or WW2?

many reasons, 1 there was no nation of Israel yet, Jesus tells us that the generation that sees Israel become a nation will be the generation that witnesses the end of days. (Parable of the fig tree). There has to be a 3rd Jewish Temple built in Jerusalem for the antichrist to enter and declare himself to be God. Gog/Magog war must come first (WW III). And WW I and WW II were not god's wrath being poured out on a wicked planet, but Satan doing his work on Earth. The only time God's children are saved from destruction are times when God pours out His wrath on man. (Lot, Noah). And the rapture happens immediately prior to the Daniel's 70th week. Or the "tribulation". IMHO

Can anyone tell me why we are in a time of delay, where everything seems put on hold?

We are in the time of the "fullness of the Gentiles", or the preaching of the gospel to all people, perhaps there are tribes who have not heard the gospel yet? It only seems to us that we are 'on hold', everything happens on God's schedule, He is sovereign.

And no man knows the day or hour of the rapture, so we can't look on a calender to count down the days basically, however, the Word of God does tell us when Jesus will come back to Earth to wage war with the antichrist, the Word tells us that day to the very calender day, 1,260 days after the "abomination that causes desolation".

What if there is a secret coming before the second literal coming, but it is not something that happens en masse but way more personal?

There is one, Paul states that when we are "caught up" TO THE CLOUDS, when we are changed from corruptible to incorruptible, when Jesus comes to the air only, not the Earth (soil), when He takes us to heaven for the marriage supper of the lamb it will not be His 2nd coming to Earth. In order for it to be Jesus's "2nd coming", He would have to come to Earth, just like his first coming was to Earth.

The Bible says at this "rapture" or "harpazo" in the Greek, Jesus comes FOR His saints, it also states when Jesus comes again to the Earth to battle the antichrist and set up His Earthly millennial kingdom, He comes from heaven WITH His saints.

If you think about it, the people who will make up the mysterious body of Christ will all have something in common. God's Spirit will be upon them, and they will dream dreams and have visions to lead people. Obviously, the other thing this body of people will have in common is they will all be anointed.

Are you guys 100% positive, that what you believe to be the rapture is the correct teaching or is there a remote chance that what it actually is - is personal anointings taking place, until the full number of Gentiles are brought into this mystical body? Then at the Second Coming - it will be the anointed who will be able to stand before the Son of Man, when all go out to meet him? Did he not teach that not everyone who says "Lord Lord" will enter into the kingdom of heaven? Did he not on more than one occasion use statistics of a 50/50 chance of getting this right?

I agree with the above statements you made completely, let's not forget that millions upon millions of people will come to Jesus DURING the tribulation time. Just because a rapture happens, doesn't mean people after that will no longer call upon the Lord for salvation, in fact the Bible clearly says there will be millions who will resist the antichrist and refuse to take his mark or worship him.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I really am on your side here. I am trying to introduce you to a higher level of understanding if you would permit me to. You may not be able to accept some of the things I say because your mind is made up, since you are an adult. Receiving news of God's kingdom like that of child really does have it's benefits.

I'm not real big into Greek word studies, but I have been shown enough, that I don't have to make the simple, complicated. I want you to consider that the word 'harpazo' means to seize and not the included definition of to snatch away. I believe the same word was used in the Garden, when Jesus was arrested.

If the word harpazo was used, with the definition being strictly confined to being seized only - how wouild you then define being raptured?

The riddle Jesju gives in Luke 17:32ff:
"Remember Lot's wife! Whoever tries to survive, will die, and whoever dies will survive. Amen, on that night two will sleep in the same bed, one will be taken away and one left behind. Two women will be grinding grain together, one will be taken away and the other left behind."

Now if you are able to remember and comprehend more than one sentance in a row, you will see that the ones who are "taken away" or "raptured", are the ones who are doomed. For the wife of Lot lost her life, but won eternal life, since she was not around to see her daughters rape their father and become pregnant with her husbond. Jesju explains the riddle before he tells it. So the question remains, tribulation or not: Why would people proudly claim the good will be taken away up into the sky refering to the given verses. Lot's wife was left behind, while Lot was brought away. The salt pillar of Lot's wife can be seen to this very day. Lot's memory is everything but amazing. I'd rather lie dead in the field than survive only to see my whole world tumble down infront of my eyes.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


You are partially correct, yes the same word is used in Greek when Jesus is seized by the Roman and Jewish guards. But "Harpazo" in Greek has 3 different meanings depending on the context of the sentence. Example in English: "cool", it's an adjective that means a few different things depending on the way it appears in the sentence. Greek definitions for "Harpazo"

1. to seize, carry off by force (Jesus's arrest)
   
2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
   
3. to snatch out or away (Rapture)
   

Harpazo - Definition

Now consider this, the Greek manuscript says "Harpazo" in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 And it could mean any of the 3 Greek definitions, but in the context of the verse we see that it means the 3rd one when we see that Jesus isn't "arresting" the Christians off the face of the Earth.

And other very very important point to make and I forgot to mention it earlier in reference to the idea that the Moderator stated, that the word "rapture" isn't in the Bible:

Remember, the Greek manuscripts were first translated into Old Latin before English, the "Latin Vulgate" and this is the verse in question in the LATIN:

"...deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus.." -1 Thessalonians 4:17 (Latin Vulgate)

"rapiemur" is the past participle of the verb "RAPIO", and "RAPIO" is not used as the verb when Jesus is arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane.

HARPAZO (Greek) = RAPIO (Old Latin) = RAPTURE (English)

I have studied Eschatology for most of my Christian life, I left a church that has "amillinialism" as it's official church dogma, which I reject outright. So I have looked at this from countless angles.

Hope that helps you understand the difference between "harpazo" used in Thesselonians, and the "Harpazo" used in Matthew.

Thanks for the post. I love reading about anything to do with Jesus. Always been fascinated with holy men of all faiths. I'm not sure about a rapture or not, or we'll be around to see end times, or great enlightening or any of what this time will be called in the future, but I am glad I am alive for it. Thanks again. GOD Bless.

reply to post by eazyriderl_l


I'm not sure we Christians, well, many American Christians will be around to be raptured myself either. Gog/Magog (WW III) must come before the Tribulation week, and billions of people will die from that war and the pestilence to follow it.

Oddly enough, no country identified with "America" by most Eschatology teachers is present in Revelation. Perhaps a nuclear attack on us? Who knows.

Just my $.02

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Now consider this, the Greek manuscript says "Harpazo" in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 And it could mean any of the 3 Greek definitions, but in the context of the verse we see that it means the 3rd one when we see that Jesus isn't "arresting" the Christians off the face of the Earth.

Luke:21:12 "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name."

Revelation 13:10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

Or...
"Two will sleep in the same bed. One will be seized one will get away....."

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


I don't doubt for a second that there will be millions upon millions of people who will come to the Lord during the Tribulation period, in fact the Bible says so and I trust the Word of God. The 2 witnesses will be preaching, and on worldwide TV, the angels will preach the gospel to all 4 corners of the Earth, and a remnant 144,000 Jews will be preaching in Israel.

So, yes, what you posted I firmly believe in.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The "two witnesses" have been prophecying inside our minds for billions of years (not joking) and will do so for billions more. They were fitted with some kind of technology that allows you to hear what they think, sense and experience, in and out of "time-lock" (still certain things happen in real time, but most has either already happened or will happen in the future. Thoughts and such isn't matter and might be projected here and there, like light and energy. Time-space is no obstruction to thought and mind). Wel, if you haven't heared it, tune in, sit back and freak out. They will not be on TV, and unless you are spirited, or in effect, schitzophrene, you will never even know they lived, suffered and died. Neither will you witness their ascent or uprising. You will just be suspicious of what happens.... Easy as that.... Can't be more direct, sorry.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


The Word of God says the world will SEE them dead in the streets. You, or I cannot SEE thoughts.

these two witnesses prophesy before the world for 3 1/2 years, 1,260 days to be precise:

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." Rev 11:3

And the Word also states that people will attempt to slay these two men, but will fail miserably. You or I cannot "harm" someones thought:

"And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed." Rev 11:5

They also have the power to make it not rain in Israel:

"These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will." Rev 11:6

The satan possessed antichrist will "kill" them when their 1,260 appointed days of prophecy and miracles are completed:

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." Rev 11:7

Every country on Earth will be able to see these two dead prophets laying in the streets in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days and will rejoice because they caused so much grief to them: Again, no person can see "thoughts", secondly, this could only happen in a period of time of live satellite television:

"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves." Rev 11:9


You're correct about 1 thing... the Word of God can't be more direct than that....

Cheers.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

The Word of God says the world will SEE them dead in the streets. You, or I cannot [color=olive]SEE thoughts.

Speak for yourself.