Thank you all so much for your imput, articles and links and your personal take from your own reseach, learning a lot and also a special thanks to "constantwonder" for his graciousness.

Keep them coming.

[edit on 19-10-2009 by Aquarius1]

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
Yes -- but even the "free oxygen" (oxygen not molecular bound up in H2O) in our oceans was not put there by "separating water molecules" -- it was put there mostly through the photosynthesis of phytoplankton.

That is purely speculation at this point since none of us were here on Earth at the time. We do know that photosynthesis does separate carbon from oxygen and that there is more than one way to "separate" oxygen atoms from water molecules. Exactly how this originally happened here on Earth is something we do not know.

The word "oxidation" is what we want to look at. This happens when water meets iron, it creates iron oxide separating the hydrogen atoms from H2O and binding oxygen to iron by sharing electrons. The oxygen in iron oxide can be separated with heat, like volcanic activity. Atomic separation of water also happens during the discharge of electrical energy which Jupiter has plenty of. It is quite obvious that the Sun is not the only source of energy for Europa or any of the other moons for that matter.

Here is a trivia question, "Does water expand or contract as it cools and freezes?"

Water expands as it freezes which can cause pipes to rupture, but why?

It's the gas bubbles inside that are forced out as water crystallizes. The gas expands due to the lack of pressure from the water turning into ice. So I guess the question is, "Is there evidence of ice expansion on Europa?"
If the water in the fractures on Europa is expanding as it freezes then that means there is some kind of gas within the water, possibly oxygen.

ADD:

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
In the case of Europa, that process is cosmic rays hitting the ice near the surface of the moon creating oxidizers in the water ice.

It is THAT oxygen freed up by the oxidizers that would somehow need to get absorbed into the ocean.

This is the sort of thinking that is the cause for why NASA is wrong yet again with their estimates. Not just a little bit wrong but way off the chart wrong.

New research suggests that there may be plenty of oxygen available in that ocean to support life, a hundred times more oxygen than previously estimated.

[edit on 10/20/2009 by Devino]

Originally posted by Devino
...That is purely speculation at this point since none of us were here on Earth at the time. We do know that photosynthesis does separate carbon from oxygen and that there is more than one way to "separate" oxygen atoms from water molecules. Exactly how this originally happened here on Earth is something we do not know.

The word "oxidation" is what we want to look at. This happens when water meets iron, it creates iron oxide separating the hydrogen atoms from H2O and binding oxygen to iron by sharing electrons. The oxygen in iron oxide can be separated with heat, like volcanic activity. Atomic separation of water also happens during the discharge of electrical energy which Jupiter has plenty of. It is quite obvious that the Sun is not the only source of energy for Europa or any of the other moons for that matter.

Iron will not rust in pure water alone (at least not on a large scale). Pure oxygen is also required.

Water will act as an electrolyte, but it needs a catalyst -- pure oxygen -- to start move the oxidation process along. Therefore water AND pure oxygen (not bound up in H20) are required to make large amounts of iron oxide. The oxygen in H2O alone is probably not enough to have created the iron oxide that is ubiquitous today in the Earth's upper crust.

You may call it "pure speculation" that the photosynthesis of phytoplankton originally gave the Earth its oxygen, but it seems to be a pretty sound theory -- AND it explains the world's abundance of iron oxide....

...Our planet is iron-rich. The early oceans (3.5 billion years ago) were rich in PURE iron (NOT iron oxide), but very poor in pure oxygen -- in fact the Earth's atmosphere was also poor in pure oxygen (but rich in carbon dioxide). The pure iron in the oceans did not oxidize because of this lack of pure oxygen.

Then, as the theory goes, along came the phytoplankton. Phytoplankton require iron as a micronutrient (just like humans need minerals as micronutrients). The phytoplankton in the early pure-oxygen-poor oceans used the pure iron, the carbon dioxide in the air, and photosynthesis to create iron oxide and pure oxygen. The pure oxygen and the iron oxide was a by-product of the process. After several hundred million years of this process, the Earth was rich in pure oxygen, and most of the pure iron was converted to iron oxide.

Pure iron is very rare in the Earth's upper crust, but iron oxide can be found everywhere.

It is true that nobody was around 3.5 Billion years ago to confirm that's where the oxygen came from to make both the air we breathe AND rust, but the going theory about phytoplankton seems like a good one. One can never say they're 100% sure that's how it happened, but at the moment there is no reason to doubt it, either.

I would like to hear the other theories of how pure oxygen was produced that don't require phytoplankton.

Originally posted by Devino

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
In the case of Europa, that process is cosmic rays hitting the ice near the surface of the moon creating oxidizers in the water ice.

It is THAT oxygen freed up by the oxidizers that would somehow need to get absorbed into the ocean.

This is the sort of thinking that is the cause for why NASA is wrong yet again with their estimates. Not just a little bit wrong but way off the chart wrong.

New research suggests that there may be plenty of oxygen available in that ocean to support life, a hundred times more oxygen than previously estimated.

I just gave the one known method that pure oxygen can be given off on Europa (i.e., comic rays reacting with water ice). Obviously there could be other unknown methods, such as biological processes, that are creating this abundance of oxygen.

Oxygen is highly reactive and combines very easily to create other compounds. It would be highly unusual to find large amounts of pure oxygen just "being there" that wasn't produced as a by-product of some other process.

You seem to doubt the "cosmic ray/water reaction" method of pure oxygen production on Europa. Do you have another method in mind?


[edit on 10/20/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

How is it, that we can formulate all this info about Jupiter's moon, but can't even figure out if we have water on our moon.

Speculation indeed!

Originally posted by exposethosesecrets
How is it, that we can formulate all this info about Jupiter's moon, but can't even figure out if we have water on our moon.

Speculation indeed!

There's a difference between finding a puddle under some dust, and finding trillions of cubic tonnes of water. That's why.

Personally I think the difficulty in understanding what is going on in our solar system and the Universe resides in the inability to accept that space is electrically charged. It seems that every time I read about a discussion in astronomical phenomena this issue comes up. I understand it clearly as a reaction to the flow of electricity because of an electro-magnetic field.


Now, put aside any novelty for an electric Universe theory and take a look at what we do know.

1. Solar winds are electrical.
   
2. Galactic winds are electrical.
   
3. Solar flares are electrical.
   
4. Magnetic fields are products of rotating bodies in an electric field (& vice-versa).
   
5. The creation of free oxygen from H2O, CO and CO2 are because of electricity.
   
6. Photosynthesis creates sugars and oxygen that is also because of electricity.
   
7. PH, Electrolytes (or Cellular Osmosis) and Electrolysis are all electrical.
   

The cosmological explanation appears to always be wrong and the most complicated to understand. This reminds me so much of religion, before the bible was translated only the exalted ones could read it to the common people.
The cosmological language of the exalted ones is forbidden (not understandable by the common people), we must rely upon their interpretations to tell us what we see.

[edit on 10/20/2009 by Devino]

[edit on 10/20/2009 by Devino]

Amazing how we know so much about Jupiters moon, and this presumable ocean, frozen landscape and atmosphere and yet our moon remains a mystery.
Our poor moon is so ignored... It's so close and yet we ignore it like an elephant in the room.

there may be enough OXYEN..but life requires other things to survive not just oxygen...the air we breathe contains other gasses...you need certain minerals to survive and altho europa has oxyen its probably lacking other substances....not to mention the super freezing temperatures there that are preventing anything from surviving...and the lack of a suitable atmosphere

Originally posted by Silicis n Volvo
there may be enough OXYEN..but life requires other things to survive not just oxygen...the air we breathe contains other gasses...you need certain minerals to survive and altho europa has oxyen its probably lacking other substances....not to mention the super freezing temperatures there that are preventing anything from surviving...and the lack of a suitable atmosphere

If the oceans are liquid water (albeit, this has not yet been fully confirmed), then the water is probably warm enough to support life.

If the friction caused by Jupiter's tidal forces are creating enough heat deep within Europa's mantle, enough of that heat may be transferred to the ocean to keep it relatively warm -- especially near the ocean bed.

It's comforting to know that they are trying to find new resources and what is or may be out there, problem is they are polluting space, the moon and mars, space junk is a not a good thing, of course they think nothing of polluting our planet and airspace so no big surprise here. If they do find something that we can use just how are they going to tap into it.