Conspiracies and seditious activities within secret societies: the evidence thread

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posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 09:36 AM
to attempt to qualify my question, in the military there is a direct chain of command. As a lowly e-3 you would tend to pucker up a bit around a full bird Colonel. And when a general comes around, you would not be able to drive a tack between the cheeks of an e-4. It is the same with the police of fire people. Certain positions command respect. There is a direct hierarchy. From what I know of freemasonry (only been involved about 4 years) the structure stops at the Grand Lodge of the state. So infiltration to gain the secrets has most certainly been done before, infiltration for any other purpose, would seem counterproductive. Again, I am not trying to derail, just understand. Please explain it to me as if I was an idiot. (for some reason, it always makes more sense to me when displayed in that format.)

posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 11:49 AM
I've read through the thread.

So, the claim is that Masons were directly influencing one of the main events of the past 500 years. The French Revolution.

Interestingly, the bias here seems to be that the Revolution was BAD.

Certainly some nasty things happened huring the French Revolution. It also started the Age of Enlightenment.

Ask me if I would prefer that Europe was still divided between feuding Kings. Go ahead. Or ask me if I am attached to the ideas that came out of the Age of Enlightenment like scientific freedom, or the concepts that underlie modern Human Rights?

Who would have this bias, against modern equality and rights and scientific freedom, and instead talk in hushed tones of the horrors of the displacement of the Old Regime? Well......the Old Regime might.

I can appreciate your work, while still questioning your BIAS. Because, frankly if what you are saying is correct then all of us in the hoi polloi need to give the Masons a big hug.

posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 03:34 PM
reply to post by Aeons

I'm afraid you've entirely missed the point and miscontrued the thrust of my posts specifically on masonic incitement of the French Revolution.

I challenge you to locate and demonstrate where I specifically stated my apparent bias previously, as you put it.
If you can do so, we'll go from there.

Unfortunately I don't see what the point is here as it would appear that you are behaving like a crypto-mason. Or are merely trolling. I'm not sure what the point of your post even is. Or anyone else's here apart from JoshNorton and network dude, who have either made presentable cases (in the instance of JoshNorton, whilst still shimmying around the main points) or made genuine enquiries (in the case of network dude). Actually, hold on, Masonic Light posted a serious, not fallacious, challenge to a single post.

I refer you to read the reply I give to network dude next. For your edification. It'll flesh out more of what I think of your reply and my stance, or bias, regarding the golden age of enlightenment we seem to be so awash in as result of your historic claim.

[edit on 21/10/09 by Extant Taxon]

posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 03:49 PM

Originally posted by network dude

Before I can discuss your post, I need to understand what "hierarchy" you are referring to. I am not trying to deflect anything, or misdirect the thread, I just don't know what that statement refers to.

Just to reiterate once again, that post is not evidence of a masonic conspiracy, it is merely a modern point of reference juxtaposed against the backdrop of my thread thus far. That being: throughout the history of modern freemasonry its structure and networks have been used at various times to foment rebellion and seditious activities. The various lodges and their members have used their connections within lodges, cemented by the arms of their brethren in vows; to incite revolutionary activites and conspiracies of varying complexions.
Only one shamefully ignorant of history (and I'm not referring to you here network dude) could with such assurance state that the French Revolution was a triumph of human nature and the dawn of an age of enlightenment. Murder, war, sacrifice of the "hoi polloi" on a truly catastrophic scale whilst the "moral meritocrats" are safe and snug in their mansions, proliferate on an hitherto unknown scale, thanks seemingly if we believe Aeons (I might agree in a way he didn't intend actually!), to this dawn of human reason. The "Age of Enlightenment" has brought the role of the sciences into building bigger and better war machines, bigger weapons of all descriptions, while disease, sickening poverty, mass starvation, genocidal progroms, and natural disasters that could be afforded ameliorating measures due to our level of technological and intellectual achievements, all still go on.
While the true and only growth industry is mass murder though war. Well, mass murder is only incidental to the profits that are made, the territory seized, and the natural resources grabbed...

Yay!! "The Age of the Enlightenment"!!

So enlightened were those of the French Revolution that mass bloodshed involving the "hoi polloi" was believed to the only way that progress in society could be achieved. We are all so "enlightened" today that this is the way its still done! All helped along by those same "moral meritocrats."
As per Diderot's Encyclopedie, the "Bible" of this "Age of Reason," erroneously enshrined Lucifer as the embodiment of the pure, unfettered intellect reigning supreme.

This was intended not in the stereotypical characterisation of Satanism or Devil Worship, only as the rejection of the archaic systems of religion and blind faith. The enshrinement of intellect over superstition.
Diderot's Encyclopedie is also replete with occultic masonic symbolism, which furthers underlies the spirit of that age.
I would contend that this enshrinement of pure reason was a complete failure, if the "Age of Enlightenment" was a catalyst for all we see today.
Or was it? Perhaps the Luciferian doctrine of unfettered intelect was achieved only too well...

Bloodshed, murder, ruddy violence of all kinds was used to further the aims of the revolutionary aristocrats who used the rank and file as connon fodder.

network dude, the "moral meritocracy," for me, that Billington describes is where those judged most able and capable to rule do so. Who judges this? That would be the question for me.
The hierarchy I refer to in modern terms (comparable to every age in some sense on recorded history) is that of the "moral meritocrats" themselves embedded in the highest levels of influence in government. Not to mention the other "societies with secrets" peppering the higher echelons of the command structure.
Do an internet search on "Skull and Bones John Kerry George Bush" for reference to times only just past.
The "moral meritocrats" of today still command bloodshed and sacrifice from the rank and file whilst ensconsed in their plush residences.
The status quo, and the hierarchy, of times past is mirrored today.
To this day, we as a human race, have been conspicuous in our complete lack of enlightenment. Enlightened beings don't commit mass atrocities otherwise knowns as wars of aggression. None of us are enlightened. We still labour in a dark age of the human spirit, beset by calamities. Scan the news.

Bright shiny toys, technological endeavour, and monkeys shot into space (the human kind) don't amount to a single jot of enlightenment.
Colossal hubris is more like it.
We often resemble a virus, that is partially self aware, as a species.

[edit on 21/10/09 by Extant Taxon]

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 04:30 PM
Going back to the the beginning of this thread here, further reading material relating to infiltration of masonic lodges back in the 1700s by that ubiquitous entity known as the Illuminati. In this case it is the very real and historically documented conspiracy fact that was the Bavarian Illuminati. They became the "lodge within the lodge" right throughout Europe. Their tentacles spread so far and wide, so complete and threatening their overshadowing of the political landscape that the authorities clamped down hard, and with force. And still the Illuminist beast would just not lie down and die. It took quite some time. But their influence may still live on today in their doctrine and ideology as the proto-typical clandestine revolutionary cell organization.
As Terry Melanson says in the book mentioned next, "...the socio-political doctrine of Weishaupt anticipated by decades the teachings of Karl Marx and anarchists such as Pierre-Joseph Proudhon and Mikhail Bakunin."
The plan of the Bavarian Illuminati was apparently thus:

1. Abolition of Monarchy and all ordered Government
2. Abolition of private property and of inheritance.
3. Abolition of patriotism.
4. Abolition of the family (i.e., of marriage and all morality, and the institution of the communal education of children).
5. Abolition of religion.

For what is meant to be the best overview available in the English language on the subject consult the book Perfectibilists - The 18th Century Bavarian Order of the Illuminati by Terry Melanson.

The book is loaded with primary and secondary source documents detailing the infiltration of masonic lodges throughout Europe by Weishaupt's revolutionary adepts.
The following articles from Melanson give a very broad outline of the order and who was involved. It was no Mickey Mouse operation. As Peggy Pawlowski states in her doctoral thesis on the Bavarian Illuminati: "...the Illuminati can be thought of as the executive arm of the Aufklärung [the German Enlightenment]."

Illuminati Conspiracy Part One: A Precise Exegesis on the Available Evidence

Illuminati Conspiracy Part Two: Sniffing out Jesuits

The membership included such aristocratic elites as Ernest II, Duke of Saxe-Gotha-Altenburg, Karl, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, and intellectual giants such as Goethe, Johann Pestalozzi (a highly influential pedagogic pioneer whose ideas were apparently taken and used as the basis for the educational system in many Western countries today, the U.S. in particular. For further comment on this see "America's Secret Establishment: An Introduction to the Order of the Skull and Bones," by Antony C. Sutton and "The Underground History of American Education," by John Taylor Gatto. Melanson's book also has good information on this), plus many others capable of holding sway in the upper echelons of society.
Remember, membership in the Bavarian Illuminati implicitly means subversive activities and revolution. As ever, and is one of the main planks of my case, those of the "moral meritocracy" with the right connections can exert powerful influence on societal make-up and shake it up.

From the previously mentioned article by Melanson:

By 1787 the Illuminati had enormous tentacles inside every branch of authority in Bavaria and greater Germany. The sheer size and scope of the conspiracy alarmed the Duke to no end. They had also spread into France, Italy, Austria, Poland and England - even to America, by their own account. In the third year of operation Weishaupt boasts to Zwack that they have more than a thousand initiates. [AB: 596] Knigge recruits an additional 500 [AB: 649] - mostly masons - very shortly after his initiation in 1780; and by the third edict against the Order the Illuminati were estimated to have between 2000 and 3000 members. [VS] John Robison compiles an interesting statistic concerning the different lodges and locations: Munich, Hesse (many), Ingolstadt, Buchenwerter, Frankfort, Monpeliard, Eichstatt, Stuttgart (3), Hanover, Carlsruhe, Brunswick, Anspach, Calbe, Neuwied (2), Magdeburg, Mentz (2), Cassel, Poland (many), Osnabrueck, Turin, Weimar, England (8), Upper Saxony (several), Scotland (2), Austria (14), Warsaw (2), Westphalia (several), Deuxponts, Heidelberg, Cousel, Mannheim, Treves (2), Strasburg (5), Aix-la-Chappelle (2), Spire, Bartschied, Worms, Bahrenberg, Düsseldorf, Switzerland (many), Rome, Cologne, Naples, Hannibal, Bonn (4), Livonia (many), Ancona, Courland (many), Florence, Franken Dahl, France, Alsace (many), Holland (many), Vienna (4), Dresden (4), America (several). [JR]

Further reading: Proofs of a Conspiracy - John Robison

This diagram fleshes out the structure Weishaupt claims to have possessed as Illuminist dictator, and how he had the capability to utilize the masonic lodges to further the aims of his order:

The aims of the order were simple and devestating in its scope: to dethrone the twin hierarchies of national states - Monarchy and the Church, considered unegalitarian and archaic. It was to be replaced with yet another moral meritocracy based on the elevation of superior intellect and an enlightened age of reason shall prevail. Sound familiar?
Of course there would have been those with more reason then others, and someone would have to be in charge...
Not so egalitarian after all.
For some views from the other side of the coin see the following article from the Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon: Roots of Twentieth Century Conspiracy Theory

[edit on 22/10/09 by Extant Taxon]

posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 09:54 PM
Aeons and Choronzon,

Since your borderline troll-like, evasive, facetious, insubstantial, and woefully incompetent "challenges" to the evidences and arguments I have presented thus far, I would like to know if you are able to address any of the points I have made since my OP?

That is, in a serious manner. Not immature banter bordering on arrested intellectual development. And that is not an ad hominem BTW. Those "posts" of yours were truly abysmal.

[edit on 22/10/09 by Extant Taxon]

posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 03:32 PM
Addressing some errors in terminology from my OP here concerning the excerpt from the book "Perfectibilists" by Terry Melanson (pp. 68 - 73) I'd like to make these corrections:

Where it reads "Illuminates Christian Wilhelm von dem Bussche (1756 - 1817)," it should read "Illuminatus Christian Wilhelm von dem Bussche (1756 - 1817)".

Also, "the Rite of the Philatheses," should read as so: "the Rite of the Philalèthes". So with every repetition of the error "Philatheses," it should read "Philalèthes".

posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 09:58 PM
Further to this earlier post concerning the Italian "covered lodge" known as Propaganda Due (P2) there is some further detail on the many tentacled beast that was the P2/Vatican-Banco Ambrosiano/Italian Mafia/God's Banker/Operation Gladio cluster-conspiracy. There were so many threads weaving in through each other here that I don't know if I can keep track and present a coherent post on it all!

Let's start with Licio Gelli Venerable Master of the Propaganda Due "black lodge," a previously sanctioned lodge by the Grand Orient of Italy until 1976 when it's charter was withdrawn.

Licio Gelli

We'll start with a quote from the book Puppetmasters: Political Use of Terrorism in Italy by Philip Willan, Chapter 3 - The Masonic Conspiracy, pp. 48-49:

" of the most influential power-brokers in Italy was Licio Gelli. The son of a Tuscan miller, Gelli was born in Pistoia on 21 April 1919. By the early 1970s he was firmly established as the head of a lodge which numbered amongst its members senior officers from all branches of the military (including the secret services), parliamentarians, civil servants and members of the judiciary, as well as prominent figures from the worlds of finance and industry. At the height of his power, Gelli and his associates were able to influence government appointments and policy, help to advance the careers of P2 members in all fields, and enrich themselves by converting political influence into material wealth on a grand scale. This perios coincided with the most radical implementation of the strategy of tension and an upsurge of terrorist violence in Italy."

"There is a wide range of conflicting views as to the real nature and purpose of P2. Some people say that it was principally an association of thieves, others that it was a mutual aid society, and others that it was primarily a political organization."

Licio Gelli has been identified as an Italian secret service agent (in his own words as well). From pages 54-55 of Puppetmasters:

"The P2 Commission [parliamentary commission investigation into P2] was in no doubt about Gelli's relationship with the Italian secret service. 'There is no alternative but to recognise that Gelli belonged to the secret service, since it is the only logical explanation for the protection extended to him, both passively, by not acquiring information on him, and actively, by not supplying information to the political authorities who requested it,' it wrote. The commission cited two reports from the office of military intelligence in Florence which related that, prior to 1971, Gelli told a number of people that he was a secret service agent working under the cover name of Filippo. The commission considered that he had offered convincing evidence to back up his claim. Among other things, the reports said, he used to give the telephone number of the Florence secret service office to people who needed to contact him. The commission also cited an incident in which the director of counter-espionage 'flew into a fury' on learning that the head of Florence office had initiated an investigation into Gelli. He later personally reprimanded the officer for his action, describing Gelli as 'someone influential and useful to the service.' In later years Gelli had a secret service office in Rome at his personal disposal."

From Wikipedia on Gelli and P2:

Licio Gelli's downfall started with the Banco Ambrosiano scandal, which led to a 1981 police raid on his villa and the discovery of the P2 covert lodge. On March 17, 1981, a police raid on his villa in Arezzo, led to the discovery of a famous list of 962 persons, composed of Italian military officers and civil servants involved in Propaganda Due (aka "P2"), a clandestine lodge expelled from the Grande Oriente d'Italia Masonic organization [13]. The list also included all the heads of all three secret intelligence services, 48 MPs, industrialists, journalists and wealthy people such as the current premier Silvio Berlusconi (at the time not yet in politics) and Vittorio Emanuele, the Savoy pretender to the Italian throne. Police also discovered a "piano di rinascita democratica" ("plan of democratic rebirth"), which detailed a strategy to install an authoritarian government in Italy. The national scandal that ensued was quite thrilling, given that most of the most delicate charges of the Republic were ruled by Gelli's affiliates.

Quite an array of figures of power and influence. If we compare the following command structre as claimed by Adam Weishaupt, the founder of the Bavarian Illuminati, over the masonic lodges as merely a link in the chain: the next excerpt from the book by Philip Willan, there are some very suggestable parallels structurally:

"The (P2 parliamentary) commission was presided over by Tina Anselmi, a Christian Democrat deputy, whose independent-minded direction of the investigation effectively scotched her chances of achieving ministerial office. Its report, published in 1984, described P2 as 'a neutral instrument for operations of conditioning and control' of Italian political life. It likened P2 to a pyramid with Gelli at the apex, but suggested that above Gelli was another, inverted, pyramid containing the people responsible for the overall strategy and who passed their orders down to the lower pyramid through Gelli. For understandable reasons of political expediency the commission chose not to point an accusing finger at Italy's powerful ally, the United States."

The United States? The plot thickens....

Interested parties should read the following post.


posted on Oct, 25 2009 @ 10:00 PM
Further to the very probable role of Gelli and Propaganda Due in the many tentacled beast known as Operation Gladio, the following links and videos may be of interest:

Operation Gladio - David Guyatt

Loosely known as operation "Stay Behind," the idea was to build a Europe wide secret network of anti communist guerrillas who would fight behind the lines in the event of a Soviet invasion. The plan was later codified under the umbrella of the Clandestine Co-ordinating Committee of the Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe (SHAPE), the military arm of NATO. US planners worried over the growing influence of Italy's large and popular communist party, established Operation "Gladio" in 1956. The name derived from the short sword used by Roman legionnaires 2000 years earlier, and was almost certainly drawn from the crest of SHAPE which features two swords arranged in an "A" shape. The Gladio network was operated by the secret services and initially funded by the US Central Intelligence Agency. 622 people were recruited and trained by US and British specialists in Sardinia. It is believed that up to 15,000 members were ultimately recruited to the Gladio network.

By 1972, with the prospect of a Soviet invasion receding, a decision was taken to "make a pre-emptive attack" on the Italian communist party - who had polled 27% in that year's election - and who would go on to increase their vote to 35% just four years later. There immediately followed a series of bomb outrages signalling the beginning of a "strategy of tension," designed to shift Italian politics sharply to the right. In April 1972 a Fascist bomb attack killed three carabinieri. In November 1973, an Argo 16 aircraft was destroyed in a mid-air explosion.

Licio Gelli and Propaganda Due

"The doors of all bank vaults open to the right." The words were spoken by Licio Gelli, the Venerable Master of Propaganda Due (P2), an Italian Masonic lodge with extreme right wing affiliations. P2 was a "covered" lodge, a term that denoted it was secret and operated outside of normal Masonic control. Numbered amongst its 1000 plus members were senior individuals from Italy's ruling elite. These included members of the armed services, the security and intelligence services, parliamentarians, civil servants, members of the judiciary and prominent figures from finance, industry, publishing and other sectors.

Born in Tuscany in 1919, Gelli was a fascist who saw service in a Black Shirts Battalion in the Spanish civil war. During WW11 he became a liaison officer in the SS Hermann Goering Division. This background leapfrogged him to the attention of the Italian Secret Service and later to the British and Soviet secret services. Thereafter he was to assume a shadowy and powerful role as a broker of influence in the CIA and NATO sponsored "Operation Gladio" - a covert operation that created turmoil throughout Italy during the 1960s and 1970s. Gelli's power arose from the most sensitive files gathered by the Italian secret service that were handed to him in 1967. Armed with this inside information he was able to blackmail and coerce his way across the spectrum of Italy's ruling elite, for which he was dubbed "The Puppet Master."

Try an internet search with this cluster: "licio gelli p2 operation gladio false flag terrorism".

Operation Gladio

After World War II, the UK and the US decided to create "stay-behind" paramilitary organizations, with the official aim of countering a possible Soviet invasion through sabotage and guerrilla warfare behind enemy lines. Arms caches were hidden, escape routes prepared, and loyal members recruited: i.e. mainly hardline anticommunists, including many ex-Nazis or former fascists, whether in Italy or in other European countries. In Germany, for example, Gladio had as a central focus the Gehlen Org — also involved in ODESSA "ratlines" — named after Reinhard Gehlen who would become West Germany's first head of intelligence, while the predominantly Italian P2 masonic lodge was composed of many members of the neofascist Italian Social Movement (MSI), including Licio Gelli. Its clandestine "cells" were to stay behind (hence the name) in enemy controlled territory and to act as resistance movements, conducting sabotage, guerrilla warfare and assassinations.

However, Italian Gladio was more far reaching. "A briefing minute of June 1, 1959, reveals Gladio was built around 'internal subversion'. It was to play 'a determining role... not only on the general policy level of warfare, but also in the politics of emergency'. In the 1970s, with communist electoral support growing and other leftists looking menacing, the establishment turned to the 'Strategy of Tension' ... with Gladio eager to be involved."[4]

Strategy of Tension

The strategy of tension (Italian: strategia della tensione) is an alleged theory by which world powers divide, manipulate, and control public opinion using fear, propaganda, disinformation, psychological warfare, agents provocateurs, and false flag terrorist actions.[1]

The theory began with allegations that the United States and the then-fascist Greek government supported far-right terrorist groups in Italy and Turkey – whose democratic institutions appeared to be threatened by Communism – to spread panic among the population who would in turn demand stronger and more dictatorial governments.

Further information on Operation Gladio itself (its been quite a while since I watched these documentaries, I can't remember if they mention P2 or Gelli) are the following superb BBC documentaries available at Information Liberation here:

Operation Gladio - "One of the most secret programs that ever existed"

More on Vatican-Banco Ambrosiano/Mafia/Roberto Calvi another time...

posted on May, 12 2010 @ 11:17 AM
The following article from the site dovetails with information given in the following posts from the beginning of this thread here: posts 1, 2, and 3. 'Reformin g the Whole World' - Masonic Secrecy and Treason in Eighteenth-Century Germany by Edward M. Blatley, University of London.
Very good article.

Some excerpts:

The secret societies active in Germany in the last fifty years of the eighteenth century developed higher degree systems which used the blue degrees of English freemasonry to their particular ends. They also nurtured political aims which for the most part echoed the principles of Enlighten- ment. Commonly regarded as masonic societies,1 they imposed secrecy far more rigorously than was then customary for freemasonry in England. Here there were indeed secrets, the secrecy of signs and ritual, but, for all the spine-chilling nature of the vow of secrecy revealed by Samuel Prichard in 1730, freemasonry in England tended in other respects towards privacy rather than secrecy.2 There were several reasons for this difference. Government and society had gradually grown more enlightened in the wake of significant events such as the execution of Charles I, the Civil War, the Restoration, and the Bill of Rights which, in 1689, strengthened religious toleration, limited the powers of the monarchy and increased the standing of Parliament.3 Germany, in contrast, right up to the outbreak of the French Revolution in 1789, consisted of 300 or so kingdoms, loosely held together
under the so-called German Nation of the Holy Roman Empire, each kingdom
governed by the divine right of a monarch wielding absolute power over the lives of his subjects, the more progessive monarchs, however, like Frederick II King of Prussia, tempering despotism with humanity. The English custom of not discussing religion or politics in the lodge, which probably derived from the similar ruling of the Royal Society, while formally upheld in Germany, was not upheld there in reality.4 The lodges’ engage- ment with alternative politics, under absolutist government, necessitated a rigorous enforcement of absolute secrecy.

This paper is neither comprehensive nor definitive. Far more detailed analyses of secret societies have been published by French, German and American researchers.5 My aim is to illustrate, from the sources I have found, the extent to which the political machinations of Strict Observance and the Illuminati warranted the adverse judgements brought down upon them. References to other secret societies, such as the Eclectic Alliance, the German Union of Twenty-Two and the Benefactors (‘Die Evergeten’, occasionally given as ‘Die Euergeten’) will inevitably be sparse.6

...the eighteenth-century Knights of Strict Observance swore only the single vow of absolute obedience, not to the Pope but to unkown superiors, and they never took, nor had any understanding for, the earlier vows of chastity andpoverty.8
Their plan of action, dated March 1755, marked a clear break from superiors
in England.9 One of their aims was to infiltrate independent lodges and found new lodges financed by the Order. In order to preserve the Order’s freedom of action from the ruling princes, the founding of institutions was recommended, particularly orphanages, since these were considered to be the most effective means of raising larger financial contributions from outside. As revenues increased, the orphanages could be extended to include instruction in the mechanical arts, the next step being to transform them into military academies. The orphanages, it was argued, would win
the approval of the majority of people, those of the lower class. The military
academies would attract the attention of those for whom orphanages were of little consequence and appeal to people of merit or of noble disposition. As soon as the military academies won the respect of important, high- ranking people, the time would have come to cultivate princes, from whom real privileges could be gained.
Infiltration of government would bring the Order ever closer to achieving its aim of global influence.


Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon:

Bavarian Illuminati Info:

Comment by Terry Melanson from above article:

Strict Observance (SO) is one of the most trickiest things to pin down precisely. The best info on the subject is in French: Le Forestier’s La Franc-Maçonnerie Templière et Occultiste aux XVIIIe et XIXe Siècles. More recently consult the studies by the Mason Alain Bernheim, in multiple languages.

The inventor of the rite was Baron von Hund. He and a con-artist named Johnson were the sole go-betweens for the so-called “Unknown Superiors.” Actually, the best article you can read in English on SO, is: ‘Reformi ng the Whole World’: Masonic Secrecy and Treason in Eighteenth-Century Germany. I’ve just uploaded it. Enjoy. It explains a lot.

Just to be clear, these were the questions that Wilhelmsbad was convoked to answer (written by Duke Ferdinand of Brunswick himself):

(1) Is the origin of the Order an ancient society?
(2) Are there really Unknown Superiors, and if so, who are they?
(3) What is the true aim of the Order?
(4) Is this aim the restoration of the Order of Templars?
(5) In what way should the ceremonial and rites be organized so as to be as perfect as possible?
(6) Should the Order occupy itself with secret sciences?

The above obviously says a lot about what he knew or didn’t know concerning the very Order he was appointed to head.

[edit on 12/5/10 by Extant Taxon]

posted on May, 12 2010 @ 11:18 AM
Essential reading on a secret society whose influence in the near past on global affairs is perhaps still not fully realised, The Rhodes/Milner Group, or, Milner's Kindergarten, or, the Cliveden Set; is Carroll Quigley's The Anglo-American Establishment. These entities were seperate links in a chain of geo-political influence, somewhat autonomous at times, but they had a bleedover in terms of personnel and mutual interests that rendered them so often indistinguishable in aims and philsophy. Carroll Quigley's book is the go to on this subject, with a wealth of references for further research into this subject.

Download link for the PDF:

The Anglo-American Establishment: From Rhodes to Cliveden - by Carroll Quigley

Some excerpts:

The secret society of Cecil Rhodes is mentioned in the first five of his seven wills. In the fifth it was supplemented by the idea of an educational institu- tion with scholarships, whose alumni would be bound together by common ideals—Rhodes's ideals. In the sixth and seventh wills the secret society was not mentioned, and the scholarships monopolized the estate. But Rhodes still had the same ideals and still believed that they could be carried out best by a secret society of men devoted to a common cause. The scholarships were merely a facade to conceal the secret society, or, more accurately, they were to be one of the instruments by which the members of the secret society could carry out his purpose. This purpose, as express- ed in the first will (1877), was:

“The extension of British rule throughout the world, the perfecting of a system of emigration from the United Kingdom and of colonization by British subjects of all lands wherein the means of livelihood are attainable by energy, labour, and enterprise, . . . the ultimate recovery of the United States of America as an integral part of a British Empire, the consolidation of the whole Empire, the inauguration of a system of Colonial Representa- tion in the Imperial Parliament which may tend to weld together the disjointed members of the Empire, and finally the foundation of so great a power as to hereafter render wars impossible and promote the best interests
of humanity.”

To achieve this purpose, Rhodes, in this first will, written while he was still an
undergraduate of Oxford at the age of twenty-four, left all his wealth to the Secretary of State for the Colonies (Lord Carnarvon) and to the Attorney General of Griqualand West (Sidney Shippard), to be used to create a secret society patterned on the Jesuits. The reference to the Jesuits as the model for his secret society is found in a "Confession of Faith" which Rhodes had written two years earlier (1875) and which he enclosed in his will. Thirteen years later, in a letter to the trustee of his third will, Rhodes told how to form the secret society, saying, "In considering questions suggested take Constitution of the Jesuits if obtainable and insert 'English Empire' for 'Roman Catholic Religion.'"
In his "Confession of Faith" Rhodes outlined the types of persons who might be useful members of this secret society. As listed by the American Secretary to the Rhodes Trust, this list exactly describes the group formed by Milner in South Africa:

“Men of ability and enthusiasm who find no suitable way to serve their country under the current political system; able youth recruited from the schools and universities; men of wealth with no aim in life; younger sons with high thoughts and great aspirations but without opportunity; rich men whose careers are blighted by some great disappointment.
All must be men of ability and character.... Rhodes envisages a group of the ablest and the best, bound together by common unselfish ideals of service to what seems to him the greatest cause in the world. There is no mention of material rewards. This is to be a kind of religious brotherhood like the Jesuits, ‘a church for the extension of the British Empire.’"

- pp. 28-29 of the PDF version, pp. 33-34 of the hardcopy version.

The creation of the secret society was the essential core of Rhodes's plans at all times. Stead, even after Rhodes's death, did not doubt that the attempt would be made to continue the society. In his book on Rhodes's w ills he wrote in one place: "Mr. Rhodes was more than the founder of a dynasty. He aspired to be the creator of one of those vast semi-religious, quasi-political associations which, like the Society of Jesus, have played
so large a part in the history of the world. To be more strictly accurate, he wished to found an Order as the instrument of the will of the Dynasty, and while he lived he dreamed of being both its Caesar and its Loyola. It was this far-reaching, world-wide aspiration of the man which rendered, to those who knew him, so absurdly inane the speculations of his critics as to his real motives." Sixty pages later Stead wrote: "The question that now arises is whether in the English-speaking world there are to be found men of faith adequate to furnish forth materials for the Society of which Mr. Rhodes

- pp. 30-31 of the PDF version, p. 36 in the hardcopy version.

The dream of Cecil Rhodes, what he termed "The Society of the Elect," did come to fruition, and though various incarnations and periods of evolution and regression, came to be a clandestine powerhouse whose influence (via the power elite who were members) on world affairs was immense. The Royal Institute of International Affairs was their creation and instrument, the world's prototypical think tank; the elite All-Souls College at Oxford was peopled, and to all intents and purposes, directed by the Milner Group initiates; the group had steering influence, and most times ownership, of blue ribbon media mouthpieces such as The Times of London; massive influence on the recording, interpretation, and presentation of the historical record via the RIIA book publication that the Anglophone elite readily took on board.

Continued in following post

[edit on 12/5/10 by Extant Taxon]

posted on May, 12 2010 @ 11:18 AM
Their credo was not mass propaganda. It was to influence the elite, who very often readily deferred to members of the Milner Group, and the Clieveden Set, and thus this would filter down to the lower rungs of society. They aimed to influence the influencers. The top tier of society that Milner's Kindergarten sought to bend to their way of thinking were of course the industrialists, media magnates, investment bankers/financiers, etc, who were at a lower level than their own elite circles, but nonetheless had immense propagandising power and other instruments to wield on the general public.

This influence was not exercised by acting directly on public opinion, since the Milner Group never intended to influence events by acting through any instruments of mass propaganda, but rather hoped to work on the opinions of the small group of "important people," who in turn could influence wider and wider circles of persons. This was the basis on which the Milner Group itself was constructed; it was the theory behind the Rhodes Scholarships; it was the theory behind "The Round Table and the Royal Institute of Interna-tional Affairs; it was the theory behind the efforts to control All Souls, New
College, and Balliol and, through these three, to control Oxford University; and it was the theory behind The Times. No effort was made to win a large circulation for The Times, for, in order to obtain such a circulation, it would have been necessary to make changes in the tone of the paper that would have reduced its influence with the elite, to which it had been so long direc- ted. The theory of "the elite" was accepted by the Milner Group and by The Times, as it was by Rhodes. The historian of The Times recognizes this and,
after describing the departure from Printing House Square of Bell, Chirol, and Buckle, says, "It is a valid criticism of the 'Old Gang' that they had not realized that they were in the habit of valuing news according to the demands and interests of a governing class too narrowly defined for the twentieth century."

- p. 96 of the PDF version, pp. 113-114 of the hardcopy version.

Another hugely salient instrument that the Milner Group begun, according to Quigley, was the Council on Foreign Relations:

Chatham House had close institutional relations with a number of other similar organizations, especially in the Dominions. It also has a parallel organization, which was regarded as a branch, in New York. This latter, the Council on Foreign Relations, was not founded by the American group that attended the meeting at the Hotel Majestic in 1919, but was taken over almost entirely by that group immediately after its founding in 1919.
This group was made up of the experts on the American delegation to the Peace Conference who were most closely associated with J. P. Morgan and Company. The Morgan bank has never made any real effort to conceal its position in regard to the Council on Foreign Relations. The list of officers and board of directors are printed in every issue of Foreign Affairs and have always been loaded with partners, associates, and employees of J. P. Morgan and Company. According to Stephen King-Hall, the RIIA agreed to regard the Council on Foreign Relations as its American branch. The
relationship between the two has always been very close. For example, the publications of one are available at reduced prices to the members of the other; they frequently sent gifts of books to each other (the Council, for example, giving the Institute a seventy-fivevolume set of the Foreign Relations of the United States in 1933); and there is considerable personal contact between the officers of the two (Toynbee, for example, left the manuscript of Volumes 7-9 of A Study of History in the Council's vault during the recent war).

Quigley's book is must read on this immensely important and shamefully neglected organization in terms of the study of secret societies. And when it is the subject of research it often strikes me as shoddy and reeking of the rampant Anglophobia that is endemic within American conspiracy research. It is whether, if we believe Quigley, the machinations of the Rhodes/Milner Groups and the Cliveden Set can be even be termed a conspiracy in the classic sense, is open to question. They certainly had a clear, though thoroughly camouflaged agenda, to work on the global geo-political secene and seemingly change the world for the better. Seeing themselves as the intellectual elite at the very summit of the world scene they took it upon themselves to act without any democratic sanction, and all their plans were purposefully witheld from the masses that their grand utopian visions most concerned. In the final analysis they certainly had a hidden agenda.
Contrary to what is promulgated by many conspiracy researchers, who quote selectively from Quigley's books for their own purposes and ignore other important points, Quigley states that the Milner Group's influence waned and became a non-issue very soon after WWII, and sputtered and dies in the late '50s.
But the power they apparently wielded as a truly international clandestine organiation with immense influence and reach is perhaps one of the most worthy areas of research in the study of secret societies.
Whether or not the ideological and philosophical nucleus of the Rhodes/Milner Group really did wither and die, their instruments of influence remain.

Wiki: The Cliveden Set

Milner's Kindergarten

[edit on 12/5/10 by Extant Taxon]

posted on May, 14 2010 @ 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
Essential reading on a secret society whose influence in the near past on global affairs is perhaps still not fully realised, The Rhodes/Milner Group, or, Milner's Kindergarten, or, the Cliveden Set; is Carroll Quigley's The Anglo-American Establishment. Carroll Quigley's book is the go to on this subject, with a wealth of references for further research into this subject.

Download link for the PDF:

The Anglo-American Establishment: From Rhodes to Cliveden - by Carroll Quigley

It's well worthwhile viewing the following videos of a 1974 interview with Carroll Quigley on the subject of The Anglo-American Establishment. It gets very interesting through parts 3 - 5:

Some transcribed words from segment four to be found on this page.

"...because there's a group of people who were using this book, and they're total nuts. I get letters from them all the time. I could show you some of them if you want, complete nuts, who claim that this is a Jewish conspiracy, that it's part of the same thing as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which we now know is a czarist Russian police forgery of nineteen five, and this is the same thing as the Illuminati, and the Illuminati were founded in 1776 by a Bavarian named, I think its Weiskopf [Weishaupt]. And that the Illuminati are a branch of the masons, and they took over the masons, you see, and the whole thing is a nightmare. That all secret societies are the same secret society. Now this was established by nuts for hundreds of years. There were people who said the Society of Cincinnati in the American revolution, of which George Washington was one of the shining lights, was a branch of the Illuminati. And was a secret society, and therefore that's why the masons built the monument in Alexandria to Washington. Not because he was the first President of the United States, because he was the mason and the head of the Illuminati in this country and therefore was one of the founders of the Society of Cincinnati. Do you see what I mean? And it becomes - you can't believe it. Now these same conspirators, the Jacobins who made the French Revolution, a woman named Nesta, N-E-S-T-A, Webster wrote that book. To refute it, my tutor, who's a Rhodes Scholar, Crane Branton, B-R-A-N-T-O-N, wrote his Doctoral dissertation called the The Jacobins in which he refutes her. Do you see?

Now, I think at the end of his life, Branton probably came to feel that he was wrong. That there was some secret society involved in the Jacobins. And a student of his named Elizabeth Eisenstein, who's a marvelous researcher. She's now a professor at American University, under Branton wrote a doctoral dissertation on the founder of the Babeuf Conspiracy. The Babeuf [Babouviste] conspiracy was a conspiracy of the extreme left, which burst out, in France, in 1894 [sic, 1794] or so, led by a man named Babeuf who was executed for it. But the man behind it was a descendent of Michelangelo named Buonarotti, because Michelangelo's family name was Buonarotti. Look if you can at Eisentein's book, which was published by Harvard, a doctoral dissertation which shows Buonarotti founded many secret societies, do you see? One of them was the babeuf people who are now being praised to the skies by all the neo-marxists, like Marcos [sp?], and others you see, as the great heros, because they tried to change the French Revolution from a middle class, bourgeois, capitalist revolution, constitutional revolution, into a communist revolution. Now Buonarotti is also the founder of the Carbonari, of which Mazzini was the head, in the 1840's, which united Italy in the 1860's. Do you see? So as if you start with Buonarotti, which as far as I can see is 1893 I mean 1793, 1794, I think you can trace a connection down through these various secret societies which culminate in the Mazzini Carbinari.

For an example, I'll take one thing. Italy was able to get free from Austria because, only because France defeated Austria. Why did France do that? Nobody could see why. It wasn't in France's interest. And yet France declared war in 1859 on Austria. And at the battle of Magenta Sol fra [?] Reno[?] defeated and suddenly made a peace treaty without freeing all of Italy, and the reason we are told they suddenly made the peace treaty without was because the King, the Emperor, this is Napoleon the third, was so sickened at the sight of the blood. Do you see?

Now why did he do this? He did this because in 1868, a Carbinaro threw a bomb at him. This Carbonaro was arrested, executed. But before he was executed the Emperor went to his cell, as I understand it, and the Carbonaro gave him the secret sign of a fellow Carbonaro because the Emperor of France in the, who became, who elected the president of France in 1848, seized the throne in 51, and proclaimed a new Napoleonic Empire and was over thrown by Germans in 71, so he was the Emperor for, 70 really, for 20 years, do you see. But he had been a refugee from France because he tried to make revolt in France, I think it was 1829. And as a refugee joined the Carbonari secret Society.

Furthermore he was a private policeman in the Chartrouse March in Parliament in London in 1848 the year he was elected president of France. He's a mysterious figure, do you see?

So what I sewing up is this, I do think that there is probably a continous sequence of secret societies from Buonarotti Babeuf conspiracy which is 1894-5 [1794-5], through the Carbonari unification of Italy which would be 1861. I cannot see anything since then that may exist, I haven't really studied it. But I cannot see any connection between the Nations and the Illuminati, founded in Bavaria in 1776. And I can't see any connection between them and Buonarotti. That's what these people are saying, its all one. And some say it goes back to Noah building the Ark."

posted on May, 22 2010 @ 10:24 PM
The Boston Tea Party was carried out by Freemasons.

Benjamin Franklin was a Freemason, and the American Revolution would have failed if he didn't invite French and German Freemasons to join in. Lafayette was also a Freemason, and came from Brittany, France which is a Celtic city.

Freemasons laid the cornerstone of the Capitol Building in Washington, DC

FDR, the president who put the eye on the dollar bill, was Freemason.

Freemasons cancelled their lodge meetings in order to attend Abraham Lincoln's inauguration.

The Jacobins who orchestrated the bloody French Revolution (priests were disembowled, female prisoners were raped) were obviously taught by Freemasons. They even used a Masonic slogan.

The Russian Revolution was carried out by Freemasons.

Simon Bolivar, the socialist liberator of South America, was a Freemason.

The Chinese Cultural Revolution was started by the Jesuits, although I'm not sure whether the Freemasons were involved.

posted on May, 22 2010 @ 11:22 PM
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

The Boston Tea Party was allegedly carried out by Freemasons, but even if it did it was carried out by members of Boston Masons it was due to political beliefs not Masonic ones.

Ben Franklin was indeed a Freemason and did go overseas to lobby for support of the Colonists and their fight against the British Monarchy.

Freemasons did lay the cornerstone of the Capitol Building, so what?

FDR did not put the eye on the dollar bill. He decided to put the Great Seal on the dollar bill which had the eye on it. The committee that finally created the Great Seal did not have any Masons on it.

I had never heard that they canceled their Lodge meeting, but even if they did who cares? If they did cancel, they did so because so many members wanted to go see the Inauguration. I canceled a meeting for my Lodge once because it fell on the 4th of July. Lodges cancel meetings quite often if they no there will be little or no turnout due to another major event (at least in my area).

This next comment you made is disgusting. How do you justify saying there was Masonic involvement because there were women raped and priest killed? What were these Masonic slogans?

And where did you read that the Freemasons orchestrated the Russian Revolution? I find it funny that so many try to paint us as Commie supporters, but under the Communists regimes Freemasonry was banned just as it is under any dictatorships. I did Google "Freemasonry, Russian Revolution" and the only thing I kept seeing was "Grand Orient". Let me state for the record that the Grand Orient of Freemasonry is a clandestine body that is a thorn in the side of true Freemasonry. It is not regular Freemasonry nor are any members allowed to visit them.

From what I've read, Simon Bolivar was a Freemason. So what?

posted on May, 23 2010 @ 04:55 AM
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

If you refer to my OP here I requested that evidence and sound reasoning should be presented in argument relating to actual conspiracies by secret societies and clandestine organizations. Presentation of primary and/or secondary sources, academic research by scholars, amateur or professional, etc. I haven't seen any from you in your previous post.

Do you have anything concrete to add?

posted on May, 23 2010 @ 07:53 AM

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

If you refer to my OP here I requested that evidence and sound reasoning should be presented in argument relating to actual conspiracies by secret societies and clandestine organizations. Presentation of primary and/or secondary sources, academic research by scholars, amateur or professional, etc. I haven't seen any from you in your previous post.

Do you have anything concrete to add?

The primary and secondary sources are out there, you just need to look for them.

I'm not the type of person who memorizes citations, sorry.

posted on May, 23 2010 @ 08:05 AM

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

If you refer to my OP here I requested that evidence and sound reasoning should be presented in argument relating to actual conspiracies by secret societies and clandestine organizations. Presentation of primary and/or secondary sources, academic research by scholars, amateur or professional, etc. I haven't seen any from you in your previous post.

Do you have anything concrete to add?

The primary and secondary sources are out there, you just need to look for them.

I'm not the type of person who memorizes citations, sorry.


Your assertion, your job to back up your assertion (aka defecate or get off the toilet).

Why should anyone be expected to do your work for you?

posted on May, 23 2010 @ 08:29 AM

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
The primary and secondary sources are out there, you just need to look for them.

I'm not the type of person who memorizes citations, sorry.


Your assertion, your job to back up your assertion (aka defecate or get off the toilet).

Why should anyone be expected to do your work for you?

You're kidding, right?

posted on May, 23 2010 @ 08:29 AM

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

The primary and secondary sources are out there, you just need to look for them.

I'm not the type of person who memorizes citations, sorry.

That is not how the principle of argument and debate operates I'm afraid. The onus is on the one making the argument to back-up their specific claims, not to place the burden on others.

Wikipedia: Key components of argumentation

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