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3rd person dies in Ariz. sweat lodge ceremony case

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posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 07:28 AM
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3rd person dies in Ariz. sweat lodge ceremony case


news.yahoo.com

The 49-year-old suffered multiple organ damage during the Oct. 8 ceremony at a resort near Sedona, a resort town 115 miles north of Phoenix that draws many in the New Age spiritual movement.

Authorities were treating all three deaths as homicides, but no charges have been filed.

D'Evelyn did not provide a city of residence for Neuman, but public records showed an address in Prior Lake, about 25 miles southwest of Minneapolis.

Neuman was among more than 50 people crowded inside the sweat lodge run by self-help guru James Arthur Ray. An emergency call two hours after they entered the l
(visit the link for the full news article)




posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 07:28 AM
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This is another case of another nut-job trying to cash in on the hopes and needs of a few in society to find "The Way". Between $9,000 and $10,000 is what this group of 50 people paid to attend these "ceremonies"! I have full faith that the results of this incident are in complete alignment. I am not Native-American, but I have learned that Ceremony is a commodity. Offering to an elder is fine, but this guy, a plastic shaman at best, CHARGED these people. First People should rally against this guy!

news.yahoo.com
(visit the link for the full news article)



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 07:36 AM
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It is common practice for people to pay 10k for many of the advanced Sedona retreat groups. I have friends that charged that to packed rooms 4 times a year.

Itw as irresponsible to say the least and with all of the toxicity the average person holds today, there were steps of purification that had to be made prior to this kind of event.

It was also the strongest possible Karmic lesson for the facilitator. yes responsibility needs to be met, yet the people who ran the group need prayer and understanding too as they obviously did this out of gross negligence, ignorance and will carry this through the rest of their lives.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 07:53 AM
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As a person who has been to a few sweatlodge ceremonies I can honestly say that charging money for it is 100% AGAINST the principles involved.

It shouldn't be free, however, and 'gifts' are often presented. They may take the form of a handful of native tobacco or some other useful item. My personal gifts have been small woven baskets for storing herbs, but NEVER have I gifted cash.

These people who charged immense sums for the opportunity to experience what I have had the pleasure of are nothing short of shysters and the ceremony itself is pure 'snake oil'. It's been corrupted by greed.

If people feel a need to experience a sweat, then there is only one way... present yourself to a healer and request the traditional ceremony. Don't be afraid to ask what is expected and presume nothing, but if there is a call for cash, walk away.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 08:06 AM
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reply to post by Divine Strake
 


sorry to say this but the facilitator and his teachers a idiots,,,,,,,,,,,,sorry to be point blance but im what you might call the closest thing to a lodge pouring expert your going to find,,,,,,,,,,,,,you would be hard pressed to do as many as i have unless your 70 years old,,,,,,,,as well as the fires ive kept,,,,,,,,,,,,and lodges ive poured but becaue i dont speak like a castrated man some would say im to angry,,,,,,,,,,,its not anger its sorrow trying to warn a bunch of so called adults,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,how would you feal if it was your children and tehy kept ot crap,,,,,,,,,,a bti angry.

i almost want to find every so called retreat doing this and well teet the lodge down then kick the dudes ass or better yet give him a year in jail and put him with the native americans to deal with,,,,,,,,,,,a little prison yard justice from some guys doing it in a much better way and there doing it behing bars.

ya that guy and anyof you paying for it are idiots,,,,,,,,,,sorry to offend yo but the time for pulling punches is over



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 08:20 AM
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reply to post by Jehoel
 


Don't hold back, tell everyone exactly how wrong these shysters are.



Here is a poem I wrote on ATS after a sweat on winter solstice:

Red Path Sunrise

Last nights full moon
glowed directly above
before winters first evening
rings Solstice cold love.



Now looking forward
to winter fires' burning
a cool bright morning-
a seasons new turning.

THAT is what the ceremony is meant to convey. It's a connection with our past, our present and a way to prepare for the future. The men who shared the sweat with me are my brothers and that is a bond that will never be severed.

It's been a while now. I think I'm going to have to return to the lodge, the sacred fire and the stones. I miss the scent of cedar on my skin and in my nostrils.

$10,000...
Oh, how easily a fool and their money are parted.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 08:41 AM
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I will say this.. What has happened in the news with the makeshift sauna called the ‘sweat lodge’ is not our ceremonial way of life amd has all we Native Americans horrified!

Trouble began to arise with our rebirth and being able to perform our ceremonies in the open thanks to the Freedom of Religion Act of 1978... this man came saw and with no understanding stole...

People this man perverted our sacred rites for the sake of profiteering!

Because of the abuse, misconduct and bastardization of our ceremonies and to remind of the proper protocols, a statement was made in March 2003. We Native people would seek legal recourse against any persons claiming to be recreating our rites... sadly this man slipped threw our fingers by claiming what he did was new age and not a tradishional Native ceremony...

Chief Arvol Looking Horse leading prayer at a gathering to protect the sacred site, Bear Butte in the northern Black Hills of South Dakota. had this to say

When you do ceremony, you can not have money on your mind. We deal with the pure sincere energy to create healing that comes from everyone in that circle of ceremony. The heart and mind must be connected. When you involve money, it changes the energy of healing. The person wants to get what they paid for. The Spirit Grandfathers will not be there. Our way of life is now being exploited. You do more damage than good. No mention of monetary energy should exist in healing, not even with a can of love donations.

At this time, I would like to ask all nations upon Grandmother Earth to please respect our sacred ceremonial way of life and stop the exploitation of our Tunka Oyate (Spiritual Grandfathers).


My prayers go out to the famileis who lost their loved ones...

[edit on 18-10-2009 by DaddyBare]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 08:44 AM
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reply to post by Jehoel
 


I've never even heard of this kind of thing before this story broke and I've been wondering what a true pouring would involve. Can you enlighten me? Also, what did this guy do wrong (besides charging for it)?

Edit to add:

reply to post by DaddyBare
 


That makes me want to cry.


[edit on 18/10/2009 by Iamonlyhuman]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:02 AM
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Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
reply to post by Jehoel
 


I've never even heard of this kind of thing before this story broke and I've been wondering what a true pouring would involve. Can you enlighten me? Also, what did this guy do wrong (besides charging for it)?


You may not know this but most Tribes welcome all people to join our ceremonies, dances and sings...(There are are few that are only open to tribal members).... in my part of the world we call it a blessingway... rather than just read about them, why not come and join us, experience it first hand... Leave your wallet and cameras at home... all we ask is your bring an open mind and heart...



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:41 AM
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The thing that gets me most about this $10,000 sweat lodge is that the "sweat lodge" is something a 10 year old kid would build in his back yard for the neighborhood clubhouse. I mean, good gawd almighty, it's canvas and plastic tarps held down by friggen plastic chairs !!

$10,000 a head? Excuse me, I have to run to HomeDepot to buy some plastic and lawn chairs. Act now and I will give the first 10 people to enroll a free sweat rag made out of my old T-shirts !!



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:49 AM
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reply to post by Misfit
 


I like your Avatar Misfit
... did you know the Yee depicted in that Navajo weaving is a boy??? you can tell because the head is round... females are made with a square heads... Skip the trip to the hardware store that run rug alone is worth 20 grand if legitimate



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:59 AM
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BaddyBear, I have to agree with all your replies.

What I think, and hope does not come true, is that the government might use this to persecute indigenous ceremonies by passing new laws.

Ironic it may have been, but we held a sweat lodge the day after this happened. We were not surprised to hear someone passed to the other side because there was a fee involved. People, native and non-native, charge for ceremony, and these are the people, right off the bat, are on the wrong path.

I have been in many sweat lodges made out of both man-made and natural materials. They are hot and uncomfortable. You are in there to suffer and pray and give thanks. Not to make a financial profit.

It is a true gift and blessing if one has the fortune to meet a person that is truly walking the red road.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 11:12 AM
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I don't get it.
If these people paid money to go in then that was their Choice.
They weren't forced to go in.
I'm sorry people died but they chose to participate Annd paid a very lot to do so.

wonder if there was a disclaimer or something they had to sign?



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by AmericanDaughter
 


Why we're all up in arms is simple...
The man responsible, self-help spiritual entrepreneur James Arthur Ray, claimed the New Age retreat would absolutely “change your life.”

He was right ... 64 four people paid $9,695 a pop for his “Spiritual Warrior” retreat in Sedon... 2 died on site 19 were taken to the hospital where this last one died... it caused burns, respiratory arrest, kidney failure, loss of consciousness, and dehydration for other paying customers...

It gets worse. Ray was actually sending “tweets” to his Twitter account during the ritual that he later deleted. Or so he thought. It turns out you can still find them in Twitter searches, including these:

“JamesARay: is still in Spiritual Warrior … for anything new to live something first must die. What needs to die in you so that new life can emerge?”1


JamesARay: “Day 5 of SPW. The Spiritual Warrior has conquered death and therefore has no enemies, and no fear, in this life or the next.”

After fleeing the scene, Ray posted a message on Twitter saying he was spending the weekend “praying and meditating at this difficult time” and asked others to do the same

Ray immediately fled the state and is refusing to tell detectives what happened during his two-hour “spiritual cleansing” ritual at the Angel Valley Spiritual Retreat, according Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh.

Some warrior.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by masqua
As a person who has been to a few sweatlodge ceremonies I can honestly say that charging money for it is 100% AGAINST the principles involved.

It shouldn't be free, however, and 'gifts' are often presented. They may take the form of a handful of native tobacco or some other useful item. My personal gifts have been small woven baskets for storing herbs, but NEVER have I gifted cash.

These people who charged immense sums for the opportunity to experience what I have had the pleasure of are nothing short of shysters and the ceremony itself is pure 'snake oil'. It's been corrupted by greed.

If people feel a need to experience a sweat, then there is only one way... present yourself to a healer and request the traditional ceremony. Don't be afraid to ask what is expected and presume nothing, but if there is a call for cash, walk away.



Thanks for your personal insight. I saw a similar report on the news. The healer holding the ceremony said exactly the same thing, that it was disrespectful to charge money and went against core principles. Also, that there were way too many people inside of some lodges that were not traditional and that it was not a good thing to do. So sad for the families of those who thought they were experiencing a true ceremony done properly.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 01:41 AM
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Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
reply to post by Jehoel
 


I've never even heard of this kind of thing before this story broke and I've been wondering what a true pouring would involve. Can you enlighten me? Also, what did this guy do wrong (besides charging for it)?

Edit to add:

reply to post by DaddyBare
 


That makes me want to cry.


[edit on 18/10/2009 by Iamonlyhuman]


to start i should let you know from where i stand on this issue and i will do it in the traditional way of the elders.

my vision of my life path, Sasquach came to me in a dream in it he told me he was leaving and it would be my job to teach and protect the people after his passing,,,,,,in the vision i denied my own abilitys so the next six days i woke up with a brown recluse spider bite without getting sick, because of time constraints that is only part of the vision and only one vision.

my expereince is i starteed at the fire and became a fire chief, an elder of the fire ways and ways of the inipi as well as sundancer,,,,,,,,for my learning years i carried stones in for over 150 inipe sweats a year as well as pour myself,,,,,,,,never has anyone been injured or became worse off after the cerimononys i perofromed, so figure around 5000-10000 sweats and not one injurie,,,,,,,,,but i knew of injuries from cerimonys i was not at,,,,,,and i knew why to.

the reason simple they never realy learned about the fire,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and they have false humility,,,,,,,,oh ya and the charge,,,,,,based on that rate i could have retired from one summer easly,,,,,,,,and in some of those sweats we had maybe 40 people at the very special sweats like opening or closing,,,,,,,and in the last sweat all of the stones used during the four days were brought in,,,,,,,,,,the most i believe was around 230, i know because i carried them in, then even would go in because after all i was the head fire keaper and that is why i had helpers,,,,,,,outside,,,,,,,,the reason is because that way i could assist the lodge pourer.


The thing is if you do not have a real fire keaper your asking for trouble, but when you dont have a real lodge pourer your in for trouble,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the thing is there are very few true pourers because not many have truly learned the fire,,,,,,,,,,,,,so a true one can realy do the fie himself as long as he doesnt have 50 people in there,,,,,,,,,but even then a true one will be able to find someone in the crowd the has natural fire keeping abilitys to help,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Part of where i speak from is i was used by some,,,,,,,,,as in i workded behind the scenes when tehy fell short because well i was very young and not mature enought in there society way of thinking


So the were he went wrong was probley the first sweat he went to to steal the teachings.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 05:22 AM
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Originally posted by DaddyBare
Because of the abuse, misconduct and bastardization of our ceremonies and to remind of the proper protocols, a statement was made in March 2003. We Native people would seek legal recourse against any persons claiming to be recreating our rites... sadly this man slipped threw our fingers by claiming what he did was new age and not a tradishional Native ceremony...


As a person with some Choctaw heritage I have always been interested in understanding my ancestors. I’ve come to realize that the greatest gift God has given my fathers people is that of spirituality. I have to wonder though when my cousins seek recourse in Western law. Why would you choose to fight on the enemies terms? Governmental law will never favor those it seeks to oppress. The history of the treatment of aboriginal Americans makes this abundantly clear.

My point is that in my opinion seeking recourse through legal channels is playing into the hands of those who wish to dominate you. It may be necessary at times, but it can never be the spiritual path. Use that ability that God has blessed you with, there you will find the advantage that no man can take from you.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by resistor

Originally posted by DaddyBare
Because of the abuse, misconduct and bastardization of our ceremonies and to remind of the proper protocols, a statement was made in March 2003. We Native people would seek legal recourse against any persons claiming to be recreating our rites... sadly this man slipped threw our fingers by claiming what he did was new age and not a tradishional Native ceremony...


As a person with some Choctaw heritage I have always been interested in understanding my ancestors. I’ve come to realize that the greatest gift God has given my fathers people is that of spirituality. I have to wonder though when my cousins seek recourse in Western law. Why would you choose to fight on the enemies terms? Governmental law will never favor those it seeks to oppress. The history of the treatment of aboriginal Americans makes this abundantly clear.

My point is that in my opinion seeking recourse through legal channels is playing into the hands of those who wish to dominate you. It may be necessary at times, but it can never be the spiritual path. Use that ability that God has blessed you with, there you will find the advantage that no man can take from you.


it was not western thinking that did it,,,,,,,,it was a man with nothing more on his mind than his twitter page and money.

to go traditional with this may require him to die because obviously he took on one the spirits in the abys between the alter and fire.

oh sorry went back a few hundrend years.

just by looking at the pictures i can tell its one big abys at that hut.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 09:02 AM
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reply to post by antar
 


You make some good points. I find it sad however that people have to see good spiritual things as a commodity. I suppose it's better to spend 10k on opening a mind a bit than spending it on smoking crack. Still though....money just shouldn't factor in on these things. I know the intent has to be pure and rules followed at a sweat and was taught that there are extreme consequences for doing things the wrong way.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by resistor
 


We maybe aboriginal Americans but this is the twenty first century... as all civilized men will... we seek legal recourse first... if that fails, then we bury them face down in a red ant hill



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