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The American Dream has Become...

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posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:46 PM
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reply to post by projectvxn
 


I guess I just don't understand where you're coming from. You fundamentally disagree with the wars, yet you are signing up to take part in them. I too want to bring the troops home, but there is no end in sight. Obama promised to bring them home, yet all he's done is shift them to Afghanistan, or Russia's Vietnam as I like to refer to it. And you're right, troops aren't murderers in the legal sense of the word. Murder involves malice by definition When it all comes down to it, modern soldiers are paid killers, like it or not. You could choose to be constructive with your life, but instead chose the road that is destructive. There is nothing constructive about war, except maybe the enormous rebuilding contracts.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by Exemplar]




posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:49 PM
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Originally posted by rainfall

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by rainfall
 


You will keep my nieces out of this conversation Period.


I'm sorry, but aren't you the one who brought them into the conversation??

What a SICK excuse your brother is using to justify the slaughtering of innocent Iraqis, so his kids can "reach their potential!"

How many innocent little Iraqi girls did he kill so far???

I'll say it again.....KARMA!


You are an uninformed coward. His brother is doing what thousands of loyal, courageous Americans are doing and have been doing for hundreds of years. A soldier is given orders, and he must follow those orders. It could be said that millions of men over the course of mankind have fought in the interests of only a few. Thats just the way it is. People give up their LIVES to serve their country.

I cant even begin to find the words to respond to a statement like that, seeing as how If I ever heard that in person I wouldnt use any.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:54 PM
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Originally posted by doctorvannostren

Originally posted by rainfall

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by rainfall
 


You will keep my nieces out of this conversation Period.


I'm sorry, but aren't you the one who brought them into the conversation??

What a SICK excuse your brother is using to justify the slaughtering of innocent Iraqis, so his kids can "reach their potential!"

How many innocent little Iraqi girls did he kill so far???

I'll say it again.....KARMA!


You are an uninformed coward. His brother is doing what thousands of loyal, courageous Americans are doing and have been doing for hundreds of years. A soldier is given orders, and he must follow those orders. It could be said that millions of men over the course of mankind have fought in the interests of only a few. Thats just the way it is. People give up their LIVES to serve their country.

I cant even begin to find the words to respond to a statement like that, seeing as how If I ever heard that in person I wouldnt use any.


Yes, it is a good thing that the military doesn't allow soldiers to think for themselves isn't it? There's no way they'd do half that stuff otherwise. There is a time for war, and that is when congress declares it at the consent of the people, or during an invasion of the mainland. Having a different opinion does not make one a coward, quite the opposite actually. It's easy to go along to get along.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:56 PM
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I think this whole thread is just made up drama. He starts off saying how he cannot support the military but a few minutes later he is enlisting. I.E. he will be willing to follow orders that he believes are inhuman and illegal. Or is the big plan to infilitrate the Army and change how they operate. If so I hope you enjoy your years in military prison.

It doesn't make sense and his failure to explain his stance except for folowing the constitution, makes me wonder why he even made this thread in the first place except for some weird demand for attention.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by WTFover
 


With respect to that quote, when the power of government and corporations goes unchecked, their abuses do as well, rendering them indistinguishable from criminal enterprise.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:01 PM
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reply to post by sligtlyskeptical
 


I never said I was against the military or even the government. That's your fantasy my friend. I don't require that you believe anything I say. I've told everyone in that post all I was willing to reveal about myself with respect to adding the substance of my experience to a topic I felt very strongly about. I suppose I should expect this sort of treatment on a site that regularly sees it's fair share of people who have difficulty understanding what is being said, and the context in which it is being said. I say read a few more pages. I have more than clarified my positions.

This isn't a policy discussion either. I'm not even required to explain myself to you. But I am doing my best against unfounded attacks based on assumption and superlative concepts, that do not apply- as it is not who I am.



[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]

[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:13 PM
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reply to post by Exemplar
 


Of course modern soldiers are paid killers. Death in the job description. But every soldier in history has been a trained killer. Why? Because societies need to be able to protect themselves. When we let the state abuse the power of the military it is us who have to carry the shame, and if nothing else I hope that one day people understand that, even as we maintain armies around the globe. To The People, I'm waiting for you to give government your orders. Because until you do, warriors like me will always have to kill and die for stupid and reprehensible reasons.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:19 PM
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reply to post by projectvxn
 


I do not disagree, however, it just seemed you were putting all "cops" in a negative light, much like others are doing to our soldiers. Also, you redirected the blame, from the soldiers, to those making policy and giving the orders. Why not say the same for the "cops"?

I am in no way defending that minority of cops, who blatantly abuse their authority and hide behind theor badges. Having been a cop for fifteen years, I have worked with a couple of these worthless excuses for cops. I, like you, can not sit idly by and allow myself and the majority of cops to be equated to scum like them.

Know that I have the utmost respect for you, as a thoughtful human being and fellow American. However, I felt the need to disagree with that one statement.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Exemplar
 


Of course modern soldiers are paid killers. Death in the job description. But every soldier in history has been a trained killer. Why? Because societies need to be able to protect themselves. When we let the state abuse the power of the military it is us who have to carry the shame, and if nothing else I hope that one day people understand that, even as we maintain armies around the globe. To The People, I'm waiting for you to give government your orders. Because until you do, warriors like me will always have to kill and die for stupid and reprehensible reasons.


You couldn't be more wrong. It is entirely up to the military to uphold their oath to the constitution and disobey unlawful orders. That includes the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. Once again, congress never voted to go to war.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:21 PM
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reply to post by WTFover
 


I meant "cops" in an abstract form, to mean those we bestow our trust to govern according to their Constitutional Mandate. I feel the same about cops as I do about society, as I do about the military. There are more good ones than bad, and we should ALWAYS deal with the bad.



[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by Exemplar

Originally posted by doctorvannostren

Originally posted by rainfall

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by rainfall
 


You will keep my nieces out of this conversation Period.


I'm sorry, but aren't you the one who brought them into the conversation??

What a SICK excuse your brother is using to justify the slaughtering of innocent Iraqis, so his kids can "reach their potential!"

How many innocent little Iraqi girls did he kill so far???

I'll say it again.....KARMA!


You are an uninformed coward. His brother is doing what thousands of loyal, courageous Americans are doing and have been doing for hundreds of years. A soldier is given orders, and he must follow those orders. It could be said that millions of men over the course of mankind have fought in the interests of only a few. Thats just the way it is. People give up their LIVES to serve their country.

I cant even begin to find the words to respond to a statement like that, seeing as how If I ever heard that in person I wouldnt use any.


Yes, it is a good thing that the military doesn't allow soldiers to think for themselves isn't it? There's no way they'd do half that stuff otherwise. There is a time for war, and that is when congress declares it at the consent of the people, or during an invasion of the mainland. Having a different opinion does not make one a coward, quite the opposite actually. It's easy to go along to get along.


See this is what I mean by uninformed. They wouldnt do half of WHAT stuff they are doing over there? You are offering speculation based on what you have read or been told. Soldiers are losing their own lives to avoid collateral damage. I mean are you really questioning the command structure of a standing army? Of course soldiers think for themselves. Infantrymen think about one thing, and Intel think about another. Your little free-thinking game of war is the reason you are in civilian clothes right now. Stick to topics you are educated in.



[edit on 18-10-2009 by doctorvannostren]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:25 PM
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reply to post by Exemplar
 


But without the people questioning and taking the reigns of their own nation, who's to stop the powers that be from unleashing a massive, fabricated propaganda campaign to sell a war?

Why are you so bitter toward the military? What is it that you think that they should be doing? A coup? That's called sedition and treason. No, I'm sorry it is always the people who bear the first and most important responsibility for the direction of the country, most especially for a life and death situation like war.



[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by doctorvannostren

Originally posted by Exemplar

Originally posted by doctorvannostren

Originally posted by rainfall

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by rainfall
 


You will keep my nieces out of this conversation Period.


I'm sorry, but aren't you the one who brought them into the conversation??

What a SICK excuse your brother is using to justify the slaughtering of innocent Iraqis, so his kids can "reach their potential!"

How many innocent little Iraqi girls did he kill so far???

I'll say it again.....KARMA!


You are an uninformed coward. His brother is doing what thousands of loyal, courageous Americans are doing and have been doing for hundreds of years. A soldier is given orders, and he must follow those orders. It could be said that millions of men over the course of mankind have fought in the interests of only a few. Thats just the way it is. People give up their LIVES to serve their country.

I cant even begin to find the words to respond to a statement like that, seeing as how If I ever heard that in person I wouldnt use any.


Yes, it is a good thing that the military doesn't allow soldiers to think for themselves isn't it? There's no way they'd do half that stuff otherwise. There is a time for war, and that is when congress declares it at the consent of the people, or during an invasion of the mainland. Having a different opinion does not make one a coward, quite the opposite actually. It's easy to go along to get along.


See this is what I mean by uninformed. They wouldnt do half of WHAT stuff they are doing over there? You are offering speculation based on what you have read or been told. Soldiers are losing their own lives to avoid collateral damage. I mean are you really questioning the command structure of a standing army? Of course soldiers think for themselves. Infantrymen think about one thing, and Intel think about another. Your little free-thinking game of war is the reason you are in civilian clothes right now. Stick to topics you are educated in.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by doctorvannostren]


I'm in civilian clothes because I refuse to accept money to leave my home and family to fight/bomb/kill for corporate interests overseas. I'd rather create than destroy. When a standing army attacks the mainland, I'll be there rifle in hand.
You sure are doing a lot of speculation about me yourself, since you know nothing about me. You also have no idea of my education, so why don't you stick to telling yourself what to do and I'll do the same. And yes, I am questioning the command structure of a standing army. Is that breaking some law? Is dissent equivalent to treason in your eyes?
Yes, some soldiers are doing good things, but some soldiers are also doing horrible things. The truth is somewhere in the middle. The entire point anyhow, is that the wars are illegal and we should not be there if you follow the constitution.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Exemplar
 


But without the people questioning and taking the reigns of their own nation, who's to stop the powers that be from unleashing a massive, fabricated propaganda campaign to sell a war?

Why are you so bitter toward the military? What is it that you think that they should be doing? A coup? That's called sedition and treason. No, I'm sorry it is always the people who bear the first and most important responsibility for the direction of the country, most especially for a life and death situation like war.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]


I know this must sound radical at this point in time, but all I want people to do is simple. Follow the constitution instead of the dollar. No wars without the consent of congress and the people. I'm bitter towards the military because it has become the strong-arm of international corporations that don't care about this country like we do.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by Exemplar]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:41 PM
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reply to post by projectvxn
 



we should ALWAYS deal with the bad.


Absolutely. And, it is no small thing to do. There is no pride or satisfaction in doing so. It is, instead, saddening to have to accept that a human can violate the trust of others, without remorse.

Safe journeys, my friend.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by WTFover]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 11:13 PM
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This point may have been made, but I'm not going to read through 4 pages of garbage trashing my country.

First, let me say, OP, if you don't like our country, go back to Costa Rica. Not to be mean, but if you don't like it here, then leave.

Let me tell you my take on the American dream. I own my own business and am doing quite well. I started with nothing. I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs. I work everyday - almost. I work long hours at something I love doing - so it never seems like work. I am sucessful because I deserve to be successful. It did not come overnight, nor should it.

I see too many people partying, lying on their ass, jumping from job-to-job, using filthy language, wearing inappropriate clothing, listening to loud, trashy music, and complaining that America ain't good enough.

Tell me I'm wrong, tell me I'm part of the problem, but remember this. You're the one complaining. I hope you find peace. Now, go find something you love and make a career out of it. You won't have time to complain.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 11:15 PM
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reply to post by doctorvannostren
 


so you claim to serve your country and it's people so they can have the right to speak, then you threaten to violently attack them if they do. Spoken like true cannon fodder... If only I could get 10 divisions of mindless drones such as yourself our problems here would be over very soon..

on another note...

This thread is so full of genius...We have people that are aware of the corporate chess game and are still eagerly waiting be a pawn in said game.

Ha, the body and mind can be compelled but the soul will ALWAYS rebel. The body is just along for a show, but you can see the brainwashing so evidently in the responses. Yet, you still have that sense that things are wrong and you don't know why. That...is your soul talking. Say hi! You'll all be meeting soon when the kingpins decide its time for another holocaust.

ps. you can try to justify all these stipulations to murder all you want. Malice, intent, blah blah blah...unfortunately, murder is murder, glorifying it, or making convenient adjectives wont exonerate. Soldiers murder for a living, they get paid, they are compensated for the destruction that they sow. Self defense is the only excuse but it's kind of hard to claim that when you invade a country... ego's....soo many ego's...I guess you have to believe your BS about murdering innocents in order to make it through the day without blowing your brains out for knowingly murdering and raping a society...


[edit on 19-10-2009 by injunfeller]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 11:16 PM
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Your country and your military became a lost, corrupted cause the moment you allowed yourselves to be brainwashed into prioritizing orders above that of your OWN moral judgment.

There are no excuses.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 11:53 PM
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Originally posted by Tippys Dad
First, let me say, OP, if you don't like our country, go back to Costa Rica. Not to be mean, but if you don't like it here, then leave.


and then


Originally posted by Tippys Dad
This point may have been made, but I'm not going to read through 4 pages of garbage trashing my country.


Classic American quotes with lack of compassion and understanding.
The one thing this election has shown me is the hate and arrogance this nation still retains.

Peace

[edit on 18-10-2009 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 04:08 AM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Exemplar
 


That isn't actually the point now is it? How many times do I have to say this, I don't believe that these wars are fundamentally necessary. But so long as we are there we have a responsibility to finish our job. Find Osama, and come home, (Or finally admit he's actually dead and come home). I am not for nation building and do not support any effort to do so. I want us to come home, I really do. But in the mean time I want a clear mission with proper oversight, for the safety of our troops we have to think rationally about this, and refrain from the kind of superlatives and extremes that have been resorted to in this thread so far. It is NOT FAIR, nor is it accurate to call our troops murderers. That title belongs to those who perpetrated the lie that brought them to the battlefield.

And where does that responsibility lie? On YOU AND I, THE PEOPLE! If we take our media's word for it, our government's word for it, our political party's word for it, then we are not meeting our responsibility now are we? So you tell me, by extension, and using the same simplistic logic, all of us are murderers, as we failed in our responsibility to ask why we would need to go to war with a third world country, and demand an adequate answer. Instead the WHOLE DAMNED NATION watched the media and the leadership bumble through excuses for the abuse they were perpetrating, and they failed to catch on, choosing a "Let's wait and see" attitude in favor standing up in the face of Going to freakin' war. And too damned complacent to give a # about a life and death decision that would affect millions for decades to come, and potentially cause ruin to our economy and our way of life. Today we have that answer.

It's not as if history isn't rife with the warnings of men smarter than we. When the hell are we going to take responsibility instead of finding more things to blame. When do we stop making accusations and start looking in a damned mirror?

You think I'm a murderer, I in turn charge you just as guilty. Where the hell were you? What's your excuse, your justification?


[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]

[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]

[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]



your troops are murderers .. man woman or child anyone who gets in their way.

This incident was reported differently in various news media. [full article from the McClatchy Newspapers




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