The American Dream has Become...

Wow, the virulent rhetoric astounds me! If he wants to join up, more power to him, and may he have "fair winds and following seas," as we Navy folk refer to a smooth tour of duty. Why would anyone begrudge someone willing to sacrifice for the good of others? It's because of people like the author, all of us have the right to speak freely about controversial topics. In another time, talk like this would have had all of us thrown in prison or worse.

The military is the least of our problems, and as I said in my post earlier, they are, but, a spoke on the wheel, and go where they are ordered. The culprits that need to answer are the ones who sent the military into no man's land. We all know who they are, so refrain from the petty semantics, because they have no bearing on the subject. The author of this thread sounds like a man of integrity and that is something this country lacks. He will do great in whatever he decides to do.

The military ought to be treated like a priceless resource and a finite one at that, to be used when absolutely all other alternatives have been exhausted either through negotiations or diplomacy. However, lately, the military has been used as pawns on the grand chessboard we call the world. That is truly the sad part, but one more good one in the ranks can't hurt. I did my bid and feel like I have earned the right to speak on the matter at hand. If anyone wants to criticize, be mindful of who you do it to, and do so with eloquence and etiquette. Many would be amazed how far a little mindfulness and civility can go in a conversation.



[edit on 18-10-2009 by Jakes51]

Originally posted by kenton1234
reply to post by projectvxn

 

You do not have to join the army to serve your country. Matter of fact you would serve it far better by not joining up to protect the problems you talk about.
You started your post with a little eloquence and intelligence. What happened?

Rather presumptuous to attempt to dictate the to the OP a supposed "proper path" for serving his country. It seems to me that he provides a fine example of what it means to be a actively patriotic American.

I have personally known many individuals who have served in the Armed Forces in a honorable fashion.

I concede that military service is not necessarily a prerequisite for exceptional citizenship but it is rather poor form (in my opinion) for an individual to castigate the OP for expressing his support of his brother as well as others serving in the military.

For the record, I don't believe that feeble attempts to call into question the OP's "intelligence" and ability to impart a "degree of eloquence" to a given argument shall hold much water.

clearly many are oblivious to the term "economic draft"...

and all these altruistic references *face palm*



learning the hard way it is i guess...

either way, good luck, if it makes you feel any better the people that seem like they are bickering may be doing so because on some level or another they care about you. Take that for whatever it is worth...

[edit on 18-10-2009 by injunfeller]

reply to post by projectvxn


Projectvxn, you have taken a beating on this thread but just know that there are those of us who do not hold your decision against you. I do not because it is your decision and you've made it with full knowledge of your needs. What I hope is that you've also made it with full knowledge of what will be asked of you. Yes, I do believe that the military has our backs. But, what concerns me is that our country's civilian leaders do not and they are the ones that will be giving you orders. I know you have not made your decision lightly but I'm not sure that you've fully prepared for the consequences of following orders that you don't agree with. Those consequences will follow you for the rest of your life. I only base my comments on the passion that is obvious in your writing. Such passion combined with sometimes conflicting orders will not be an easy thing to resolve within yourself. I am not saying that this is an impossible task, just that I would hate to see that passion become disenfranchisement. We need passionate people and leaders in civilian life as well.

The military has a very definite role in keeping our society safe. However, just as with anything else, not everyone should participate in it. I am not saying that you shouldn't join, you and you alone are the only one capable of making that determination based on your personal needs.

Just know that not everyone here blames the military, it is our civilian leadership that is lacking. Great thread, by the way.

Originally posted by Jakes51
Wow, the virulent rhetoric astounds me! If he wants to join up, more power to him, and may he have "fair winds and following seas," as we Navy folk refer to a smooth tour of duty. Why would anyone begrudge someone willing to sacrifice for the good of others? It's because of people like the author, all of us have the right to speak freely about controversial topics. In another time, talk like this would have had all of us thrown in prison or worse.

The military is the least of our problems, and as I said in my post earlier, they are, but, a spoke on the wheel, and go where they are ordered. The culprits that need to answer are the ones who sent the military into no man's land. We all know who they are, so refrain from the petty semantics, because they have no bearing on the subject. The author of this thread sounds like a man of integrity and that is something this country lacks. He will do great in whatever he decides to do.

The military ought to be treated like a priceless resource and a finite one at that, to be used when absolutely all other alternatives have been exhausted either through negotiations or diplomacy. However, lately, the military has been used as pawns on the grand chessboard we call the world. That is truly the sad part, but one more good one in the ranks can't hurt. I did my bid and feel like I have earned the right to speak on the at hand. If anyone wants to criticize, be mindful of who you do it to, and do so with eloquence and etiquette. Many would be amazed how far a little mindfulness and civility can go in a conversation.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by Jakes51]

should be .. and .. ought to be etc etc are just fantasy words when used in reference along with the american military.

your military along with your security agancies are the scum of gods earth.

reply to post by manxman2


Yep, because we're the only military on Earth and only Americans can do wrong...Gotcha. No other military on Earth is populated by Humans that make mistakes, and no other country on Earth does either.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]

reply to post by injunfeller


Hahah. I am gainfully employed My friend. Again baseless assumptions. The basic MO of many participants in this thread. I understand that people here would rather not see one among them make a decision they feel is not right for their beliefs. But I too believe in something, and I have the right to make my decisions. I've have thought about my reasons and my motivations since I was 17 years old. I'm 25 now, and I'm ready.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]

[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]

This is the quality I remember ATS as being, I thought progressive threads were gone. It literally seems like when the name "Obama" first appeared on this site, that thoughtfulness immediately left. So I'm glad that my hope for this site is renewed a bit, The "ATS Dream" for me has become a nightmare as of late. There is criticism for Obama but its fair, balanced, not excessive or crazy. So thank you for the wonderful thread

reply to post by manxman2


Manx, I am comforted to read that where you live roads are paved with gold, rivers flow of honey, and everyone walks around with shiny gold halos hanging above their heads. At least that is what I took away from your post. However, here on earth there are bad people, warfare, death, deceit, fraud, corruption, and other social misfortunes. Our military and security agencies has dirt under its nails and a closet full of skeletons, but so does every other government on this earth. I am not ashamed to admit it. However, in with the bad apples are some good ones as well. Crazy world, huh?

[edit on 18-10-2009 by Jakes51]

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman


I take my bruises with pride. And I thank you for a measured response with reason and thought. I have had many years to think about my decision and where it could land me should I refuse what I know to be an illegal order, and I am willing to take that step. But be assured that anyone on the other side of the battlefield pointing a weapon at me and my fellow soldiers will receive exactly what should be expected.

I believe America started going downhill when daddy Bush and his cronies stole the election for his son yes his son the puppet.

If you look up Grandaddy Bush Preston Bush and his connections to the Rockerfellers and the Nazi connections you might begin to see how the Elitist rule.

I was surprised beyond belief when Georgie said unknowingly into an open mike that our Constitution was only a God damned piece of paper and when broadcast over the news people didn't do a thing.

Obama's word change..... we thought change for good but why did we think that, he never said change for good and if you watch him speak you might even say he is a smooth talker listen to his calming tone.

I was happy to see Tea Parties but when they went to Washington the President wasn't even there for his people he went to a town hall meeting.

Americans have to realize the Elitist are going to drain them of everything they can just short of a deep depression because they don't want there businesses to suffer loses that drastically.

Remember it is we the people that have hired so we can stand together and fire. Maybe it is time for the Dem. and Rep. parties to end and something new brought forward not a one world government however.

Our Leaders and government Houses need to be cut of all there special services and priviledges.

If all people stopped going to work which only continues to line the Elitist pockets..... and stopped paying the outragous bills they charge us and if we all worked together in our communities throughtout there States to change to what is important like stopping wars and cleaning this Planet and working on clean and free energies for all I believe we could create a Planet to be proud of and a pride and happiness...... maybe even healthyness everyone so deserves.

America is truly a great Nation if we don't stand together for the good of all peoples in help and love then they have bought us with there tinker toys and we will not evolve we we destroy ourselves.

Plant trees in mass should be at the top of the list for this race is destroying there own oxygen supply.

I give the OP a star and flag and I do think all Americans need to stop and look at the beautiful stars and stripes on our flag and make it the true pride it is meant to be.

God Bless America

Save her in Peace

Originally posted by rainfall

Originally posted by projectvxn


I'm sure some would say "But it's his responsibility to say no!" The problem is, he has two little girls. And the only way he can assure they reach their potential is to do what he's told. He loves this country. But this Government is using him. And he knows it, but unlike us, he's absorbed into a system that has full control of how his life turns out, and his life is directly tied to my two little nieces. And I can't begrudge him this.

First off...very well written...S&F

But if your brother knows that he is fighting for the corporate elite and NOT for the freedom of this country, he is just as guilty as the sick masterminds that planned this bloodbath...

And as for his two little girls....all I can say is 'KARMA'.......
(the sins of the father are visited upon the sons & daughters)

Hope things work out for him.

PEACE and LOVE...

People like you make me sick.... , It's very easy to judge others in the comfort of your home that others have shed blood to give you the right to do so. go ahead and move to a country that rewards you that same freedom to judge the government by death.

Ideals are a great thing , someone has to fight to provide you the freedom to state them.

Like I've stated 1000 times... " I may not agree with what you have to say , but I will fight to the death your right to say them"....

0231 CPL/USMC
EWS , Semper Fidelis

To the OP, I feel the same as you do brother. Best Wishes to you and your family.

Ok......you are 25 and arrived in the USA in 1989 from Costa Rica.

That would have made you 5 years old at that time, just starting school.

So why would you be concerned about school uniforms?

Also, last I checked, Costa Rica was a relatively prosperous country. How is it that you had never seen a toilet? Even if you didn't have one in your own home, you would have ran across one somewhere. Same goes for the TV

Also, how is that your feet touched the tarmac in Miami. Flights arriving to Miami International arrive at gates. People haven't set foot on tarmacs in Miami when deboarding a plane in many many years.

Would you like to set things straight?

Originally posted by Jakes51
reply to post by manxman2

 

Manx, I am comforted to read that where you live roads are paved with gold, rivers flow of honey, and everyone walks around with shiny gold halos hanging above their heads. At least that is what I took away from your post. However, here on earth there are bad people, warfare, death, deceit, fraud, corruption, and other social misfortunes. Our military and security agencies has dirt under its nails and a closet full of skeletons, but so does every other government on this earth. I am not ashamed to admit it. However, in with the bad apples are some good ones as well. Crazy world, huh?

[edit on 18-10-2009 by Jakes51]

i can assure you my government has never caused the death nor injured one human being anywhere on this planet.

americans dont count the deaths they cause/have caused now they are just a statistic on some part of a balance sheet .. just colateral damage not real people .. the pictures we europeans see of your heroes abroad walking thru streets with childrens bodies lying around intestines spread from one side of the street to another dont exist to your media .. and whats a few million strangers anyway eh.

you have killed starved asssasinated and bombed to death over 100 million people in your pursiut of oil and other economic interests.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by manxman2]

Originally posted by projectvxn

I just want Americans to quit fighting each other and realize that we are being duped. People who support these politicians and these policies based on pretty words and sound bytes are helping to hurt their own nation through ignorance.

Refreshing to hear at a time when most of my friends are working whatever angle they can to relocate somewhere else (another country) for the very reasons you are talking about. People are so fed up with eroding civil liberties, economic distress, taxation, corruptness and all the rest. It really has come down to change the system and the direction of our country or leave it; accepting it has become just too hard for most to live with...

ETA: S&F

[edit on 18-10-2009 by LadySkadi]

The whole Iraq/Afghanistan situation is pure insanity to begin with, and Constitutionally questionable. There are quite a few people with friends and family that are deployed there in an operation/war that is questionable at best. The paradox is that people 'support the troops' even though they believe/know that the war is unjust, wrong, and a fraud. The excuse of following orders died during the Nuremberg trials, and the reality is that every person that participates is just as guilty as those that started it to begin with. Every enlisted person, every officer, every contractor, and every politician all the way to the top.

I have friends there, and it disappoints me that they actually believe the 'we are supporting democracy' line, and the old 'we are fighting them over here so you don't have to fight them over there' bs.

When you know that something is wrong, there is no middle ground. All 'shades of grey' will get you is a shadowy life.

Originally posted by LadySkadi

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by endisnighe

 

I just want Americans to quit fighting each other and realize that we are being duped. People who support these politicians and these policies based on pretty words and sound bytes are helping to hurt their own nation through ignorance. I was an ardent Obama supporter, and on 9/11, despite my misgivings about the 2000 election I was a Bush supporter. I wanted to stand up for my nation, and at the time that meant standing with my president. I was lied to, and to add insult to injury I was wooed by a smooth talking, young man from Chicago who used my feelings and my sense of right and wrong to take power and turn my hope into another 4 years of despair watching my beloved USA turned into a fascist police state where cops and criminals are indistinguishable. And I am disgusted, ashamed, and damned angry.

Refreshing to hear at a time when most of my friends are working whatever angle they can to relocate somewhere else (another country) for the very reasons you are talking about. People are so fed up with eroding civil liberties, economic distress, taxation, corruptness and all the rest. It really has come down to change the system and the direction of our country or leave it; accepting it has become just to hard to live with...

S&F

[edit on 18-10-2009 by LadySkadi]

well if ever you need a bed in another country lady just u2u me.

i will take double my medicine.

and thats a good post directly above .. its how they justify the guilt they feel.



[edit on 18-10-2009 by manxman2]

Originally posted by Palmerwhit
Ok......you are 25 and arrived in the USA in 1989 from Costa Rica.

That would have made you 5 years old at that time, just starting school.

So why would you be concerned about school uniforms?

Also, last I checked, Costa Rica was a relatively prosperous country. How is it that you had never seen a toilet? Even if you didn't have one in your own home, you would have ran across one somewhere. Same goes for the TV

Also, how is that your feet touched the tarmac in Miami. Flights arriving to Miami International arrive at gates. People haven't set foot on tarmacs in Miami when deboarding a plane in many many years.

Would you like to set things straight?

Well I was born in 1980 & I can remember going to catholic school and hating my uniform in kindergarten because my friends made fun of me.

I can also remember going down to south carolina in the early 80's , and seeing outhouses (which I never knew existed at that time)

as far as TV , there are STILL places in the world that don't have TV.

and the whole "setting foot on the tarmac" thing , I can remember walking from the gate in newark airport and flying to NC ,even though I thought the plane was a bus (I was 2 damnit!!!) and I remember landing and being carried down to the tarmac & this was 1982.

so basically do you have anything to add to this discussion besides trolling?...

Oh yeah , I can remember going to my grandmothers house in PR back in 01 and CONSTANTLY losing power and having to fill the generator.... BTW when was the last time you've been to Costa Rica and/or checked on it prior to your post?....

Originally posted by EyesWideShut

Originally posted by Palmerwhit
Ok......you are 25 and arrived in the USA in 1989 from Costa Rica.

That would have made you 5 years old at that time, just starting school.

So why would you be concerned about school uniforms?

Also, last I checked, Costa Rica was a relatively prosperous country. How is it that you had never seen a toilet? Even if you didn't have one in your own home, you would have ran across one somewhere. Same goes for the TV

Also, how is that your feet touched the tarmac in Miami. Flights arriving to Miami International arrive at gates. People haven't set foot on tarmacs in Miami when deboarding a plane in many many years.

Would you like to set things straight?

Well I was born in 1980 & I can remember going to catholic school and hating my uniform in kindergarten because my friends made fun of me.

I can also remember going down to south carolina in the early 80's , and seeing outhouses (which I never knew existed at that time)

as far as TV , there are STILL places in the world that don't have TV.

and the whole "setting foot on the tarmac" thing , I can remember walking from the gate in newark airport and flying to NC ,even though I thought the plane was a bus (I was 2 damnit!!!) and I remember landing and being carried down to the tarmac & this was 1982.

so basically do you have anything to add to this discussion besides trolling?...

Oh yeah , I can remember going to my grandmothers house in PR back in 01 and CONSTANTLY losing power and having to fill the generator.... BTW when was the last time you've been to Costa Rica and/or checked on it prior to your post?....

I am sorry if you think I am trolling. The article caught my eye, and it just seemed a little suspect.

I've been all over the world.......poor places and rich. I do not have to have been to Costa Rica to know that it is considered one of the more developed places in Central America.

Exiting a plane on a tarmac at Miami International in 1989 was not happening.

I simply thing the OP is over dramatizing the story, and I think that is not cool.

That's all.....if that is trolling, I am sorry


[edit on 18-10-2009 by Palmerwhit]

WOW , I just noticed you joined ATS today , let me be the 1st to say welcome and I look forward to more of your quality posts.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by EyesWideShut]

[edit on 18-10-2009 by EyesWideShut]