Stop bashing us skeptics/debunkers and learn to think logically and with reason!

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by nightmare_david

 

Why are you so obsessed with this guy?

And what do you think you've proven that he needs to come back so badly and look at?

Who said I proved anything in this thread? I'm also far from obsessed with the guy That's a flat-out lie.

He's on here deliberately insulting people and trying to rile everyone up. He then creates this thread where a lot of people have asked some questions and he can't even bother to come back in here and answer any of them.

Calls himself a serious researcher and tries coming off as this highly intelligent person and look at the way he acts. I find it very pathetic that he won't show his face in this thread and post again.

reply to post by nightmare_david


I understand there is something troubling you emotionally about this fellow, but if you weren't obsessed with him then I don't know if I would be seeing 'Ed this' and 'Ed that' and 'pathetic' and this and that in every other post when he isn't here. That is all I was/am curious about. Like I said, I don't post here often, don't know a thing about either of you, don't really care, but it's obvious to me that there is a thorn in your side and you can't get it out.

I will not begin to toot my own horn here but I am very pleased to see the gestalt of the posters here actually capture my attention for once in a long long while....I've used to be extremely active on ATS in 2008 and early 09 but since backed away due to this issues....BELIEVERS vs. SKEPTICS

during my 'Vacation' I have come to realize that there is actually an additional party that is never mentioned but i honestly feel many have made their presense known on this thread including myself.

with that said, i am proud to say that i have never given skeptical ed any of my time or energy based on a promise to internos given long ago in a thread which i cannot post a link to, stating that i will not feed trolls.

there is NOTHING that i can say now or in the FUTURE about this type of bantering back and forth. we all know skeptics or believers are walking their own path just as i am. we may even agree that there are some who have meet ET's along the side of the path as well thats fine too, doesnt mean we have to demand anything from anyone.

and lastly can we all start phasing out this notion that when someone proclaims something that there must be some kind of evidence to back it up. this "demand" for evidence or a link to proove validity is sort of a hidden cavity in the coming together of the UFO community. i know i sound rediculous to say "stop trying to provide evidence" all im saying is.....look at how much we play into "this guy cant BACK UP ANYTHING hes saying" ..... honestly i dont really think anyone can accomplish this on a whim, it takes tack and precision to do it and its extremely rare.

enjoy your holiday season as it approaches guys, and even to you skeptical ED, lord knows theres one of you in EVERY family so, yeah. have a good one.

LT

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by nightmare_david

 

I understand there is something troubling you emotionally about this fellow, but if you weren't obsessed with him then I don't know if I would be seeing 'Ed this' and 'Ed that' and 'pathetic' and this and that in every other post when he isn't here. That is all I was/am curious about. Like I said, I don't post here often, don't know a thing about either of you, don't really care, but it's obvious to me that there is a thorn in your side and you can't get it out.

Maybe the thorn is that I have him in my Ignore list and he can't get a rise out of me. He was always an anal cavity and not a contributor to this forum. If you and others ignore him, maybe he'll go away. I think aliens cored him a new rectum and he thinks I sic'ed the aliens on him!

reply to post by LordThumbs


"...with that said, i am proud to say that i have never given skeptical ed any of my time or energy based on a promise to internos given long ago in a thread which i cannot post a link to, stating that i will not feed trolls..."

Looks like you can't keep your own word. Go away, you're negative comments only reflect on you.

If you have something positive to say about the thread topic, be my guest. But if you're here to vent some stupidity, go do it at Internos' threads, he'll be happy he's got you as a supporter. I don't need you nor do I appreciate your comments. Come back when you have something useful to say. Shoo!

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed


And, FYI, I don't have a belief system. I'm not a believer. Beliefs are for the gullible. My reality does not depend on beliefs but on knowing or not knowing.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by Skeptical Ed]

Everyone has a belief system. Yours is that you believe beliefs are for the gullible. You also believe it is possible to 'know' something.

I believe the people on this forum are real human beings although that is an assumption based on a logical fallacy: I write posts on ATS, I am a human being. There are other posts on ATS not written by me therefore they must have been written by other humans.

Logically my proposition is on very shaky ground but I believe it to be true, nonetheless. Do I 'know' it? I'm not sure that I do.

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed

How about it, skeptics, why don't you vent your frustrations with these don't-show-me-no-irrefutable-evidence-I-don't-need-it, I believe it cause he/she said so!

If this was the intention of the thread then it failed. It's obvious that most of the contributors to the thread have seen through your false dichotomy. However, rather than respond to many of the well thought and high quality posts and opinions on offer you turn up on page 7 just to slag Nightmare_David off and offer nothing further of value to the discussion.

Whatever gets you off, I guess.

Originally posted by MarrsAttax

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed


And, FYI, I don't have a belief system. I'm not a believer. Beliefs are for the gullible. My reality does not depend on beliefs but on knowing or not knowing.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by Skeptical Ed]

Everyone has a belief system. Yours is that you believe beliefs are for the gullible. You also believe it is possible to 'know' something.

I believe the people on this forum are real human beings although that is an assumption based on a logical fallacy: I write posts on ATS, I am a human being. There are other posts on ATS not written by me therefore they must have been written by other humans.

Logically my proposition is on very shaky ground but I believe it to be true, nonetheless. Do I 'know' it? I'm not sure that I do.

You need to learn what a belief system is before you can comment about belief systems. Here is an example: You've never put your hand on a lit stove burner but you've been told by those who have that it burns like hell. You believe them. Then, one day you put your hand on a lit stove burner either on purpose or accidentally. You find out that it burns like hell. Before you had the experience you believed. After you had the experience you were no longer a believer, you became a knower.

However, using myself as an example, I don't believe this or that. Until I have the experience, I don't believe. I just don't know. Beliefs are created by a mental process. I don't create beliefs.

Here's another example connected with Aliens and UFOs. I was introduced to UFOs in 1957 and until 1981 or 1982 I heard and read thousands of reports by others of seeing strange aerial vehicles. I had no idea what they were but they were called flying saucers and then UFOs. At no time did I tilt towards believing what they were based on the testimony given by others. I just didn't know. Not a belief, just not knowing. Then I had 6 sightings, videotaped one and I went from "I don't know if the're real" to "Now I know they're real."


[edit on 23-10-2009 by Skeptical Ed]

Originally posted by MarrsAttax

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed

How about it, skeptics, why don't you vent your frustrations with these don't-show-me-no-irrefutable-evidence-I-don't-need-it, I believe it cause he/she said so!

If this was the intention of the thread then it failed. It's obvious that most of the contributors to the thread have seen through your false dichotomy. However, rather than respond to many of the well thought and high quality posts and opinions on offer you turn up on page 7 just to slag Nightmare_David off and offer nothing further of value to the discussion.

Whatever gets you off, I guess.

Just like your reply, which serves no purpose, so was Nightmare David and he's been put in his place by others. You're fortunate that ATS allows only 10 to be put on the Ignore list 'cause it would be my pleasure to add your handle to it.

This can go both ways and does. Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it. Give it a rest please...

Just in case your wondering, I am a skeptical-believer.

[edit on 07/16/2009 by Lichter daraus]

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by nightmare_david

 

I understand there is something troubling you emotionally about this fellow, but if you weren't obsessed with him then I don't know if I would be seeing 'Ed this' and 'Ed that' and 'pathetic' and this and that in every other post when he isn't here. That is all I was/am curious about. Like I said, I don't post here often, don't know a thing about either of you, don't really care, but it's obvious to me that there is a thorn in your side and you can't get it out.

There's nothing troubling me emotionally about him. That's another lie about me

Here's why I've been calling him out:

1.) He's been on here making these claims that he has photographic and video evidence of "six sold sightings" he's had. Ask the guy to show it and watch what he says. "I don't know how to upload stuff". He then goes on to attack others who have said they've had sightings because they have no evidence. What's wrong with that picture? He has evidence of his sightings, doesn't show it, but says it's a fact and really happened. When it's anyone else, they're lying and hoaxers. When it's him, it's perfectly fine.

2.) He's made the claim that he's debunked something. He's implied that it's something huge because if believers heard it "they would change their minds". He won't say WHAT it is, but has said he's told a UFO "personality". He quoted the word "personality" when he said that in a post of his just recently. He quoted it to imply it's someone well-known in the ufology world. Now, what's wrong with that picture? He says it's something that would make believers change their minds, but won't say what it is? You see anything wrong there? You can't see that it's a flat-out lie? Also, how come he won't say WHO he told? Because if he did, he knows people could contact the person to verify the story and if we did, he'd be proven to be a liar.

3.) When people use books they've read or what they've heard from someone else as evidence for something, he's really quick to attack them for using hearsay as evidence. If you look at his post history, you will see that all of the evidence he's ever used on ATS is from a book he's read or what someone has told him. Another case of when someone else does it it's wrong, when Eddie does it, it's perfectly fine.

4.) Contradicts himself all the time. In one post he had called himself an "open-minded skeptic" in another he called himself a "non-believer".

I can keep adding reasons, but I could fill up a whole page doing that.

The reason I kept coming back in here and calling him out is pretty clear. The guy couldn't show his face in this thread after he saw the backlash he got from it. He wasn't showing back up because the thread went in the exact opposite of where he thought it would go. People were asking questions and he should be the man he claims he is and answer them. Not ignore them and insult them because they showed him to be a complete fool. Skeptics and believers both.

Until he posts that evidence he keeps boasting about, I'll keep calling him out whenever he attacks others or posts nonsense. We're supposed to be denying ignorance, remember?

If people don't like what I post, they can put me on ignore. I honestly don't care. I call people on their BS and Eddie is full of that.

[edit on 24-10-2009 by nightmare_david]

Originally posted by tezzajw

Go and find someone who has seen an alien. Look them in the eye and tell them that they didn't see what they saw, after you have heard their story.

I think you are confusing sincerity as some kind of evidence Tezza. I understand your point, having read hundreds of Alien Abduction Account. But:
Go find me someone who has seen Jesus, Mary or a saint.
Go find me someone who has seen a Ghost.
Go find me someone who has seen Elvis.
Go find me someone who has seen Big Foot.
Go find me someone who has seen The Loch Ness Monster.
Go find me someone who talks to dead people.
Go find me someone who is a reincarnated alien soul.
Go find me someone who thinks they are an alien hybrid.

They all "believe".
They all can be sincere in those beliefs.
But is sincerity the corner stone of reality and the truth?

An old anecdote that springs to mind is: "There can be no one more sincere than a mad man running down the street with an axe".

I don't give a rat's arse for all of the fake reports - and there's plenty of them.

I disagree, I think we must take into account the fact that people do make stuff up, and that people do this all the time. Just because people seem sincere does not rule out the possibility that they may be faking it.

Most reports are probably explainable and mndane. However, some people know they are telling the truth - that they have met aliens - and that's all that counts to me.

Well, others require more than a gut feeling to trust some ones story. I am sure there are topics or subjects that you would require more proof of then just some ones word.

If you want to doubt them, that's fine. Do whatever you must to sleep safe at night.

If you want to believe them, that is fine too. Do whatever you must to sleep safe at night.

I think you raise some good points for discussing. That of the importance of personal testimony to the UFO/ET topic and the the way many of us interested in the field rely heavily on it as evidence to support a belief.

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed

Originally posted by MarrsAttax

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed

How about it, skeptics, why don't you vent your frustrations with these don't-show-me-no-irrefutable-evidence-I-don't-need-it, I believe it cause he/she said so!

If this was the intention of the thread then it failed. It's obvious that most of the contributors to the thread have seen through your false dichotomy. However, rather than respond to many of the well thought and high quality posts and opinions on offer you turn up on page 7 just to slag Nightmare_David off and offer nothing further of value to the discussion.

Whatever gets you off, I guess.

Just like your reply, which serves no purpose, so was Nightmare David and he's been put in his place by others. You're fortunate that ATS allows only 10 to be put on the Ignore list 'cause it would be my pleasure to add your handle to it.

Well, I guess I dodged a bullet there, phew!

I have never used the ignore function as I believe I am capable of defending my stance. If someone was ever offensive I would report them. to the mods. Also if I'm ignoring someone I may miss valuable information that changes my opinion - I am willing to admit there may be things other people can teach me. It speaks volumes for your own position that you cannot bear any kind off criticism of it. On my own threads I go out of my way to welcome all opinions whereas you have invited only one opinion in the OP - yours.

FYI nightmare_david hasn't been put in his place - one contributor merely asked him why he was so obsessed with calling you out - they didn't say they disagreed with him. If you didn't have him on ignore you would be able to defend yourself against his accusations which as of yet, by your response you have done nothing to dissuade.

The purpose of my previous post was to highlight your behaviour in this thread which has not been to promote discussion but rather to incite people on the board to hector and harass people of a different opinion to yourself, which I feel is totally against the spirit of ATS, as evidenced by the fact that no one took you up on your offer.

ATS is a place where people should not feel afraid to voice their opinion, however outlandish. If you disagree with someone you should be able to respond in a rational and intelligent manner why you take up an opposite position, without hectoring them or slapping them on 'ignore'.

If you need to vent your frustrations why not go for a run or play some golf? Come back when you are ready to have a proper discussion.



[edit on 24/10/2009 by MarrsAttax]

Major problem with the believer and skeptic relationship is:

(1) Believers refuse to acknowledge Earthly explanations to UFOs. If a skeptic provides Earth based possibilities, believers will not in anyway what so ever consider them. Since Earth based explanations do not fit the narrative, they are trying to tell, they will jettison the skeptic's approach with rage.

(2) Believers buy into and are influenced by other believer's stories. As a result of believer leading believer, none of them can tell the difference between fantasy and reality. Even though one of them could be a real schizophrenic, the other none schizophrenic doesn't even consider being influenced by someone with mental illness.

(3) Believers are influenced by UFO book writers, con-artists, and others who seek to make a profit. As a result of all their stories blending together, believers don't consider the possibility that they are buying into a con.

(4) Believers buy into the line, "I worked as an important figure in the government (Air Force, Military, Etc...), so it has to be an alien made craft." Even though there are some military professionals out there, believers use their position in a manner that ignores perspective. Other words, the believers use the line, "He occupied a high rank in the military, so he must know everything the government is working on..." Believers refuse to consider the irrationality of what they are saying. Even though one guy might be working on one secret program, that does not mean he knows about other secret programs. Also, if someone said they were in a position to know every military made craft, there is a 100% percent chance they are lying.

(5) Believers refuse to look at aviation history in any rational manner. According to several of the believers I talked to at ATS, there is no way another government could be working on secret military planes. Even though it has been documented on several occasions, believers refuse to acknowledge the possible connection between UFOs and any government.

(6) Believers also buy into the word "disclosure". I swear if it wasn't for the X-Files episode "Disclosure", the word would not have made it into ufology. Even though several nations came out with disclosure, believers bought their acknowledgment of alien made UFOs hook, line, and sinker. If you think about how this information is presented, those governments are more than likely hiding their secret programs behind the "disclosure". Believers don't consider this possibility. As long as your looking for alien made UFOs (in one direction), they are working behind the scenes on the next military advantage (in the other direction). "Watch the left hand while the right is doing something else."

I don't hold every believer under the same umbrella, for some of them really get us to think a little deeper. If we are to solve the greater puzzle, we will need the skeptics and believers to work together.

[edit on 24-10-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by atlasastro


I just love logic! Thanks for yours, a rarity here.

I'm sorry I don't know how to "award" flags but visualize good, ol' glory just a-flappin' in the wind under your reply.

reply to post by MarrsAttax


Why don't you read atlasastro's reply and learn somethiing. I don't have to defend my position as it is stated very clearly. If you have a problem with what I say, address what I say and keep your personal opinion of me or any poster off the thread.

And your defending nightmare david is your choice, don't bother me with it. Enough posters have brought his undesirable behavior up. You want to receive the same kind of replies?

Originally posted by Pathos
(2) Believers buy into and are influenced by other believer's stories. As a result of believer leading believer, none of them can tell the difference between fantasy and reality. Even though one of them could be a real schizophrenic, the other none schizophrenic doesn't even consider being influenced by someone with mental illness.

That's not fair. You're assuming that all people who have had personal experiences with ETs are schizophrenic or have a mental illness - and that we who believe their stories are too gullible to think otherwise.

I don't think my contactee workmate has any mental illness of any kind. He's just your ordinary bloke. He's been a builder, owned an antique store, he's just had some very extraordinary things happen to him. I'm not going to judge him for that. And neither should you.

Originally posted by RiotComing

Originally posted by Pathos
(2) Believers buy into and are influenced by other believer's stories. As a result of believer leading believer, none of them can tell the difference between fantasy and reality. Even though one of them could be a real schizophrenic, the other none schizophrenic doesn't even consider being influenced by someone with mental illness.

That's not fair. You're assuming that all people who have had personal experiences with ETs are schizophrenic or have a mental illness - and that we who believe their stories are too gullible to think otherwise.

I don't think my contactee workmate has any mental illness of any kind. He's just your ordinary bloke. He's been a builder, owned an antique store, he's just had some very extraordinary things happen to him. I'm not going to judge him for that. And neither should you.

When someone claims something and it turns out to be an extraordinary claim, such as being abducted by alleged aliens, those being told about it have the right to think what they want for things like alien abductions cannot be proven since the experience sounds like a mental process.

If those claiming to be abducted by what they think are aliens (and how does the "victim" know it's an alien - usually from outer space) would not tell anyone about their alleged abduction 'cause no one can help them, there would not be any repercussions from those who don't accept such tales.

But those claiming such episodes are looking for something more than help because they post their experiences on forums such as this one and there will always be those who will deny such experiences for there is no physical record therefore it will be thought that the person making the claim is not playing with all of their marbles.

Publicizing alien abductions violates common sense, logic and reason. Reports of alien abductions fall under the term "anecdote." We need more than a good tale. You notice that not one world leader has ever claimed to have been abducted least of all even visited without being abducted.

[edit on 24-10-2009 by Skeptical Ed]

[edit on 24-10-2009 by Skeptical Ed]

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed
reply to post by MarrsAttax

 

Why don't you read atlasastro's reply and learn somethiing. I don't have to defend my position as it is stated very clearly. If you have a problem with what I say, address what I say and keep your personal opinion of me or any poster off the thread.

And your defending nightmare david is your choice, don't bother me with it. Enough posters have brought his undesirable behavior up. You want to receive the same kind of replies?

How many people have said anything about my "undesirable behavior"? It hasn't been many at all and the ones who did (except for 1 or 2) were people who tend to act the same way you do.

Should I go count how many people have brought up the way you act? Not that I would waste my time doing that. All one has to do is read this thread to see that you win by a landslide in that area.

Oh and attacking someone just because they defended me, tells me I'm doing a good job. Just seeing my name in a thread gets on your nerves

reply to post by Skeptical Ed

In the case of my friend, he went with them willingly (in fact, they asked him if he would like to meet an extraterrestrial) and his father also had an experience when my workmate was born, two men came into the hospital and took him away for a few moments, which reduced this tall strapping macho rugby captain (New Zealand in 1955) to tears. His sister has also experienced UFO phenomena. Various other incidents that would blow your mind, for instance -going back to the moment where just before he was born and flying high above the Earth as pure consciousness. Perhaps we can describe it as a 'subspace' existence, described in Courtney Brown's 'Cosmic Voyage' book.

Logically, yes you are entitled to ask for more than simply a tall tale from these experiencers. But to label them as being a few sandwiches short of a picnic, is downright ignorant. A true scientist will report the truth, no matter how bizarre it may be. The fact that so many people around the world have come forward and corroborated similar experiences and exopolitical conclusions - from a scientific perspective you can't dismiss any of the qualitative and quantitative data that come from abductees / contactees / channelers / remote viewers. I would argue that you won't get any real conclusive answers through the traditional channels of ufology. You need to recognise the metaphysical aspects of ourselves and our relationship to the universe to even begin to understand the complexity of it all. Unfortunately, it goes beyond what your five senses can normally handle. This seems to be the general consensus.

Having said that, don't ask me about it - I'm personally about as spiritual as a plank. I only believe what I can see or touch right in front of me. I'm not religious. So all this stuff is a big ask for me to recognise or accept. I suspect it's the same for most of us. That's why it's seen as illogical to think outside the box. But I am making an effort to understand. It seems we have to go down the frequency / vibration / 3rd/4th dimension / light / consciousness route if we are to understand how it all fits together. As nutty as it seems.