Stop bashing us skeptics/debunkers and learn to think logically and with reason!

Originally posted by xelamental

Originally posted by finnegan
Conspiracists, I think some of you may be taking the Op to personally, although I do think it may have been better if any particular cases were left out of the discussion. Another problem lies with people who are just utterly deniable of anything no matter what information is presented to them. But I don't think it's too much to ask to provide solid evidence and to look at it logically.

Here is a video I posted in another thread which is also very applicable here

video by QualiaSoup

That's the best video on this topic I have ever seen.
I would love to see some "believers" takes on this.

This video represents in my view - the 'normal' approach to thinking. I wish I could make a small video to show how ludicrously limited and biased the style of thinking it advocates really is - however, it is largely how people think.

The problem occurs when you 'accept' something as true. So your skeptical - but finally evidence piles up - and you say, ok ET's really do exist. That decision of yours, did not pop aliens into existence - they either existed, or did not exist before you made that choice, and the same state of the universe continued smoothly along after you made that choice.

However, what has happened now is that you have biased your mind. Any evidence that aliens cannot exist can now safely be discounted. Even further than that, if you see a book titled "The Impossibility of the ET Presence" - you will not glance at it, nor read it. Reading it would be a waste of your time - because you already 'know' that ET's exist.

Any evidence that they do exist, no matter how flawed can safely be assumed to be true. With a little bit of mental tweaking from yourself - you can convince yourself the most tenuous evidence becomes 'solid' evidence.

My conclusion then - if you wish to retain a critical mind, and truly be able to assess data in an unbiased way - then you must suspend belief - all belief.

My model of thought goes like this.

Everything goes in - all data, all evidence - it doesn't matter how ridiculous it is. It is then assembled into groups - perhaps it is assembled underneath a statement of possibility. Such as Do aliens exist. Then you just pour all the evidence into that space. Then you have a good understanding of how the question might be answered both in the affirmative - and in the negative. Now you can also start to assign a probability to the likely hood that the possibility is real (true), or unreal (false).

For myself - the evidence I have indicates that intelligent aliens exist somewhere (lets say over 99%), that they have visited earth in the past (around 70%), that they are visiting today (maybe 60%).

The correct mental exercise here is to look for ways to reduce those percentages - because a high percentage is likely to create bias - such my 99% for aliens existing somewhere. To reduce that number I would be looking for info that tells me there are less stars than originally estimated, that the plants so far located are errors - that perhaps the earth and liquid water are freakishly improbable and so forth.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by Amagnon]

Originally posted by wmd_2008

Originally posted by SaturnFX
I want to believe the OPs, but I would need to see some hard evidence on this passionately skeptical community (which I call cynics since its one sided skepticism) truely does have a logical mind.

until then, its simply a religous type mindset thinking they know the answers on the unanswerable.

Plenty of posts on here rel supposed photographic evidence of alien stuff lets see the MARS RAT not a rat a ROCK. (eh zorgon)
Then of course we have the spires on the MOON one expert on here with his claimed 30yrs experience on ariel shots WHO believed they were evidence of structures on the Moon had to admit he was wrong. (loved that!)
The people you called skeptics posted good evidence to prove them wrong plenty more if you look about.
You have to look at all possible causes NOT just what you wish and hope for 99.999% of the time its the boring reason, that gives you guy's 0.001% of hope! look at my sig for some real good advice

I have no problem reviewing evidence, I do however have problems with people demanding that all video is faked, pictures are faked, everyone claiming anything is either delusional or lying, etc and no evidence to back up their claim.

alternatively, all aforementioned stuff should be reviewed and either taken at face value, or sort of put on a shelf until more proof of their claims becomes uncovered. to dismiss something simply because you dont believe it fits into your worldview is a religious mindset, not a scientific mindset, and this goes towards both cynics and believers.

skepticism is part of the scientific process, falsificationism is the main tenant of how one should observe overall. Most cynics dont bother with relevant measures to dismiss something, they use their belief, their former uncoverings (it cant be true now because that guy said something 10 years ago that was false, therefore everything he ever presents is false).

I am a skeptic as far as what the truth is, but I am a believer in ET...is my belief == fact...probably not, and I try not to mix the two...but I am also one of those nuts that believes in string theory also...because it makes sense and one day it will hopefully be proven to be a fact.

Originally posted by Lichter daraus
Cant someone be a skeptical-believer?

Sorry no second line as i only had one question...

I'm serious, I believe but, i am also skeptical at times, so I guess that would make me a skeptical-believer, huh, well look at, go figure, I guess I can have my cake and eat it too...

reply to post by jkrog08


Wow! I applaud you sir! I am right there with your thinking. No sides, just working together for a common goal. That's how alot of things should be. I really hope people will read what you posted because it is important. So very important. Thank you for expressing and sharing this sediment. It has been on my mind for sometime and it feels good to know there are others out there who also think this way. May this idea prevail and become the norm in our society. Once it does the world will finally move forward and we can all share in the progress of humanity. I wonder if everyone here can stop typing hurtful comments and abusive posts. Just work towards that one goal we are all here for. The truth.

Originally posted by wmd_2008

If thats real Iam the ruler of the WORLD!!

WHAT IDIOT claims to have taken that post some info!

Are you calling me an idiot?

reply to post by Skeptical Ed


There are many debunkers that have become obsessed with UFOs after they had a genuine sighting themselves.
I am someone who's convinced that we have been and still are being visited by Aliens and that some organisations own man made saucers. I've had some sightings myself, maybe that's why I want to find out more about it but it's very difficult because of the constant flood of disinformation and ridiculing. Critisism is OK but try not to debunk if there is nothing to debunk. It remains a mystery in some cases and that is what some debunkers don't understand. Both sides speculate but it remains a mystery and those sightings are plain Unidentified Flying Objects. No more no less. Just a mystery. We just have to accept that everyone has its own reality based own the knowledge and experiences that person has (had).

reply to post by Skeptical Ed


Why not get a big cup of coffee and sit down and read both copies of Richard Dolan's books UFOs & The National Security State. There are many cases in that book plus documented evidence that the government is trying to cover something up.

Telling us here to "prove it" sounds nice, but there are many excellent researchers out there who are working to do such a thing as that.

Meanwhile, pick up a copy of that book. It is one of the best out there on the subject.

This is the assement table where most things of rational happen but what happens when something irrational outside our daily reality happens, the dialogue in the head goes, what was that? And was that something even of this world or something else?

I am all for skeptics, somebody has to keep a grips on what is, but they also have to remain open to the possiblitiy of the explainable.

I can think logically and with reason, but not all things can be explained with the reason and logic that we are aware of. If someone said 500 years ago that we could watch television while sipping a cold beer and relaxing on a leather recliner, they would have been burned at the stake. Just because proof is not avail to the general public, does not mean that it does not exist.
If the universe is infinate, can you really say with certainty that we are the only form of life out there. If the universe is infinite, then there are more stars in the sky than grains of sand on earth. Most stars would represent a solar system where things orbit the star. Millions of galexies and we are it. A bunch of war loving, fear mongering people. Very hard to believe.
Another thing to consider when thinking of alien lifeforms. If the people of this planet had never gotten involved in any war, had just lived in peace and harmony, how much more advanced would we be today. Would we be able to teleport, time travel and even fly though space. I would say that it would be a good possibility.

How can skeptics claim to think "logically" when they call eveything a hoax?
I'd never be a skeptic because then I would feel way too close minded.

Being a skeptic means to evaluate evidence - not reject all evidence.

Personally I accept all evidence - even the crazy stuff - not that I put any stock in it - but once you have ALL information - you can check for internal consistency and meaning.

The question I would have for those who totally object to all ET and UFO info - is WHY?

Why is this evidence being generated, for what purpose - and what about the internal consistency of the data. Especially when reliable sources seem to put their professional careers at risk - whats the benefit? Five minutes of fame?

That is why you need to look at the meaning - not just the data.

Originally posted by Amagnon
Being a skeptic means to evaluate evidence - not reject all evidence.

Thread closed. OP loses.

I don't really associate with a side of skeptics or "believers" because it's more of a process of asking questions and examining evidence (skeptic) and then deciding for oneself if the evidence is strong enough for a belief. A combination of both. There's no point in being a skeptic if you belive nothing and there's no point in being a believer if you believe everything.

You mentioned aliens and how if believers were to think logically that they wouldn't believe in aliens. Isn't it quite the contrary? The chance of aliens in this universe is high, logically. I believe that with such a high probability of aliens existing, the idea that they've visited us on earth is most likely true. Now I've never seen a UFO or alien with my own eyes but I believe that they are out there and that I will see one in my lifetime. But then again, I don't go around claiming every UFO video on Youtube is real :p

Originally posted by semidiablan
Now I've never seen a UFO or alien with my own eyes

This will get you started:
diverse.freepage.de...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.ufos-aliens.co.uk...

Originally posted by kidflash2008
reply to post by Skeptical Ed

 

Why not get a big cup of coffee and sit down and read both copies of Richard Dolan's books UFOs & The National Security State. There are many cases in that book plus documented evidence that the government is trying to cover something up.

Telling us here to "prove it" sounds nice, but there are many excellent researchers out there who are working to do such a thing as that.

Meanwhile, pick up a copy of that book. It is one of the best out there on the subject.

That will never happen because he thinks the guy is an idiot for believing in Roswell. He's also hoped for his death in another thread. In the thread Article - Is someone killing our UFO researchers? he made this post below:

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed
When are these going to get it?: Art Bell, Jerome Clark, Robert Dean, Richard M. Dolan, Don Ecker, Stanton T. Friedman, Dr. Steven M. Greer, Budd Hopkins, David M. Jacobs, George Knapp, George Noory, Dr. Kevin D. Randle, Nicholas "Nick" Redfern, Robert Sheaffer, Whitley Strieber,

The world of UFOlogy would regain some modicum of respect if the above were out of the picture.

That's what kind of person Skeptical Ed is. Since he doesn't agree with those people mentioned, they'd be better off dead. That's pretty sick IMHO. Talk about crossing the line. Just because I don't agree with someone, that doesn't mean I'd like to see them dead.

Someone else from that thread said I had probably read into that wrong. Someone who shares the same attitude as Eddie there actually (know-it-all, feels the need to try debunking every thing he can, type). The part in bold clearly shows what he meant. That the world of ufology would be better off with them dead. That's a sick thing to say and yet he called me a parasite

[edit on 18-10-2009 by nightmare_david]

So... now it is a war?
Skeptics vs Believers??

This thread makes me a bit annoyed.
First of all I am extremely irritated that there are so much generalization from the first post all the way down.

I am a believer, but do I fit into all the crap I've read here?
In my opinion NO.

And that open-minded video thing was nothing more than just some fancy words that "just seemed" to make the "believers" being marked as the morons, when in reality that blade cuts both ways.

I sure understand the intention from OP, however...making this thread just dragged him down to the same level as the other persons who made similar threads towards the skeptics.

Both skeptics and believers have the "obnoxious relatives" in their group.
We have seen a lot of examples in this thread that just gets a kick to see others fail or being proved wrong. WHAT THE HECK IS UP WITH THAT!??!

Why is this so important?

Anyway, I know there truly are people who believe just anything, but they are few. But what the "believers" DO have is a wide range of variation of belief. One believer might believe in the GFL, another might believe in Critters, another in abductions, others have less beliefs but still feel that there is something going on.
ALL of these have one thing in common...and ONLY one which is what SOME skeptics use as a good weapon in this conflict of discussion.
And what is that?
Well, simply the fact that they are all....BELIEVERS.
They all believe in the same category, in the same image, the same painting. But within this group they believe in different sub categories, different colors of the painting. This is why you can't generalize as you do and this is also why some react as they do.

BUT... even this blade cuts both ways, cause this is just the same thing on the skeptic "side". There is no such thing as Just a skeptic or Just a beleiver. Both of these groups have a wide variety of different believes.

So the bottom line is.... DO NOT GENERALIZE PERIOD

I believe in a lot of things, HOWEVER, my consideration is far bigger and wider.
I consider that we are visited by aliens, I DO consider that there might be structures on the Moon and Mars...
But do I play these considerations and beliefs as if I KNOW those things are there? NO. I believe them, I hope they are real and I consider them all to be real. And by consider it I mean that, I just don't know, but until I get proof from either the skeptic group or the IMBA believers I stay on the consideration mood. By proof I mean, an evidence that the majority of the believers or the skeptics will accept. evidence can differ from case to case...so it's hard to give a specific type of evidence.

So I gonna use the term considerator to label myself in the future. Cause I do believe, but I consider everything.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by Akezzon]

Once again, cant people be skeptical-believers, or is there some unsaid rule against that? As i have stated before, I'm a believer, but i know when to be skeptical about certain things also.

Just to make it clear to Eddie since he's accused me of being one of the hardcore types of believers.

Yes I'm a believer, but I don't believe every single thing out there. Why do I believe aliens exist? Because I think it's ridiculous to say that in the entire universe, only one planet contains life. Do I believe they've been here? I have no clue if they have and can't say for a fact that they have or haven't been.

Have I had a sighting? Yes. I saw a UFO back in 2005. UFO as in UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECT. I have no clue what was controlling it so I'll never call it alien. It could have been secret military craft. I have no way of knowing which one it was. All I know is that it took off at such a high speed into some clouds, that the clouds actually split apart. I also wasn't the only one who saw it. A man walking down the street also saw it and was freaked out about it.

With that said, try not to be so quick to call people blind believers. You have no clue what all people believe in or have actually seen/know about.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by nightmare_david]

reply to post by Skeptical Ed


OK Skeptic here is the deal....

I'm going to put my beliefs in words that your logical mind will be able to comprehend.

I am skeptical that there are no extraterrestrial beings in the universe.

I am skeptical of the claim that 1,000 of people don't get abducted every night by extraterrestrial being.

I am skeptical of the self proclaimed fact that we humans are the smartest bunch in this vast and incredibly old universe.

Why am I skeptical of these things? Because I use my logic, my reason.

There is plenty of eye witness evidence throughout or entier known recorded history dating back to people carving on cave wall till 5 min ago of these things happening.

How can you sit there and tell paranormal believers that we are some how not a skeptic because we believe in extraterrestial life, visitation and abduction when we are truly skeptical of the lake there of.

Use your mind dude and I'm sure you will become skeptical of the notion that humans are the smartest bunch in the basket.

TA!!

Izzy.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by Izarith]

More evidence for aliens:
www.exopoliticshongkong.com...