Stop bashing us skeptics/debunkers and learn to think logically and with reason!

While I agree with you Ed, you seem to have gone the wrong way about this.

It is true that many people will believe in anything, but its also true that there are pseudoskeptics out there that will not believe in anything at all. While it appears the majority of threads here are kind of "unplausible', there are a few good conpsiracy writers out here that have done research and used logic.

I myself believe in a few things here (very few actually), but there are some things which are just ridiculous too. Really, I wouldnt recommend you have started this thread...you are just stooping down to the level the of the "nutcases" that hate skeptical opinions.

Just use your logic and wit....no need to point out te obvious flaws of some of thr irrational thinking that goes on...it here and it always will be

From what I said in the other thread, which this thread is a "spin-off" of:

It is very unfortunate another one of these "Skeptic-Believer Battle Threads" have popped up again. I am not entirely sure what the OPs of these "battle threads" (or non-online skeptic-believer ufological belligerents for that matter) had in mind when deciding to start this thread. I would like to believe it was purely a miscalculated, misguided, and fallacious expression of the overwhelming frustration we all feel right now towards ufology.

We have a very real phenomena that has been going on in our very skies for the last 70 years (possibly much longer), countless cases, many solid cases, but still no proof or unambiguous evidence. What we still have however, is the human aspect of this subject matter deferring the propagation of the very core aspect of our very faltering field of research, which is the acquisition of truth and a solution to the very enigma which we are all arguing about at this very moment.

The human aspect of which I speak is of course our primitive, emotion driven urge to force our own ideologies onto others with opposing viewpoints. The fact of the matter is that in reality the term "skeptic" and "believer" should not exist in a pure scientific inquiry, which is what ufology is supposed to be, but sadly is not right now, and hasn't been for sometime. The biased stereotypes of human labeling need not be applied to any legitimate and serious investigation.

What I fear many fail to understand is that we are letting our very passion for our goal, which is driven by different perspectives and philosophy but still aimed at the same target, defeat our our very aim, causing our field to fail from a cancer within, which is us. While we continue to engage in circular arguments completely irrelevant to the goal of our subject matter we are losing valuable resources, time, and efforts that could be spent elsewhere in productive attempts to progress our field.

Of course these ideological arguments almost always mutate into personal battles, as we are seeing in this very thread and so many others. This is an important fact to understand, because when this happens we elevate the situation from the already bad ideological argument to the much worse personal scoffing and ridicule, which then creates enemies, enemies which due to their own selfish ego to "prove someone right or wrong" will further disrupt the field by doing anything they can to defeat their "enemy", which further destroys our field.

How can we ever hope to be taken seriously when we can not stop bickering amongst ourselves like children or animals? How can we ever hope to find the truth when you have one side publishing literally anything as "proof" of alien life when we don't even know what UFOs are? The other side is not without fault however, this side will attempt to push any mundane explanation they can into anything to make it fit their paradigm of reality, which we all know is limited since humans do not understand hardly anything about our reality.

This must be resolved, and quick. Both ideologies ("sides") must meet in the middle and drop the entire arbitrary "side of the fence" and work towards a common purpose, which is what ufology is all about. This can not be achieved any other way, and if it is not done then we will all be doomed to forever run around in circles, and if that is the case we all might as well forget about ufology, or any science for that matter. We might as well only worry about who's ego is right and who's ideology of an unknown and ambiguous idea is right.

We all understand that the very nature of our subject matter is mysterious and always leaves nothing more than probable conclusions, so the frustration we all fell is expected. However, we will never be able to gather enough meaningful research, evidence, and public support to even have a chance of investigating and proving that one case that does it, that one case that is the summation of all we do, all the work, all the lost time, all the frustration, and all the ridicule.

Maybe the very field of ufology has no solution to be gained, maybe we are chasing a question that has no answer, or can not be answered. I certainly hope not, and as intelligent, curious, and open minded human beings we at least owe it to ourselves to try our best to find a answer. Maybe there is nothing to any of these UFO or alien reports, maybe there is. Maybe we will have to wait until "they" show themselves to us to get our answer. Either way if we are going to waste our time arguing over ideologies, research philosophies, and beliefs, instead of doing actual research to attempt to solve quite possibly the greatest question for all mankind then we might as well all quit right here, right now.

We all should be in this together, there should be no "sides", only one common collective working towards one goal. As the old saying goes "It doesn't matter what you know, it matters what you can prove." I personally, and my one voice has little value, ask that we all stop the egotistical and primitive ideological games and start working on proving something, something that has the potential to forever change our species in ways we can not imagine. I know I will continue to try to do just that.


Best Regards,
Justin


Minor edit to reflect this thread.


[edit on 10/18/2009 by jkrog08]

So much hate, surely it would be more positive and productive for you to simply let people believe what they want to believe. Whether you wish to accept it or not, there are people out there who have had close first hand encounters with ETs. I haven't personally, but I know some people who have - and they wouldn't be the kind of people who would lie or are delusional / mentally off-kilter. They are down-to-Earth people who happened to experience something incredible that we can only dream about.

So what am I supposed to do? I haven't seen or experienced a UFO. Am I now supposed to judge and sneer down upon those people who have? Of course not. I'm open to hearing about their experiences and what they have to say. If you listen,there's a lot of wisdom you can pick up, just on living and how to treat other people and general attitude to life.

So, rather than being 'skeptical', why not simply calm down and if you don't believe it, then that's fine - you have a right to do so. But you do not have a right to call the good ATS membership here "gullible". And for your information, science is not absolute. We only perceive a fraction of our true reality. You can't argue with 'science' on your side, because you are limiting yourself to the five-sense prison reality that David Icke refers to. If you restrict yourself to purely the realms of science - you are confining your thought process and not expanding your consciousness! There is so much more to reality than what you can see, smell, touch and measure.

I would like to reiterate what Ozman said but in a different way.

Some wouldn't believe it even if it flew up their butt and had a party
there complete with fireworks and hot dogs!

They would just think they were just going crazy or had some bad grub,
and if someone pointed it out to them, they would call them names!
Good point!

Yah,while i think the*believer* camp has hurt the ufo community...they are a very small minority,and i would also say the skeptic community has also hindered the ufo investigation process. Especially the *academic* types. And all those generalizations are just throwing insults with no goal in mind. That jkrog08 three posts above me knows more about ufo cases than you or i could shake a stick at...and i can shake a stick like you wouldn't believe. But i still disagree with the alien angle,terrestrial before extra-terrestrial until someone can prove my view wrong,which until aliens actually land on the whitehouse lawn will probably never be sufficiently proven to me personally.In any case i didn't like your post and for it to be presented as an argument for skepticism and all the good it entails has left me wishing i was not a skeptic. Atleast not the type you represent.



[edit on 18-10-2009 by Solomons]

Probably don't matter much, but I've noticed in my life time, people who believe toward one direction will not see the other side without bias.

Originally posted by Solomons
That jkrog08 three posts above me knows more about ufo cases than you or i could shake a stick at...

While I agree that Jkrog08 and a few others here are certainly knowledgeable on ufo cases, none of it matters unless you have actual experiences. Only then can you fit in your knowledge with what you have actually experienced and had related to you from a higher source. We have a few contactees on this forum and I personally place more stock in what they have to say, rather than the likes of jkrog and internos etc (no disrespect to either of them - both do a great job). Members such as SoulOrb, ET_MAN and Observe50, we should all listen to what they have to say as well.

Of course, going down this track defies all logic and reason according to the way we are conditioned to perceive this world, but the great thing about a forum is being able to hear these 'out of the box' ideas and open our minds. It doesn't mean we have to believe them, but gosh.. if anything, they make for some great stories!

I'm just saying, why try and suppress this line of thought? Why always take a negative line with this stuff? It does nothing for increasing our momentum of consciousness to eventually accept the prospect of an ET presence. It continues to imprison us with our 'old world' reality perspective. I don't want that, and neither should any of us!

Thanks for creating this thread so that more people can see how you really are.

One minute he's a skeptic and the next he's a believer. He acts as if he's this huge part of the ufology world and has been for years, implies that he personally knows a lot of the more well-known ufologists out there, but never says who he is. He also contradicts himself constantly. I also love how if you're against anything he says, you're automatically a "true believer" that believes everything despite the evidence against whatever it is. The guy has no idea at all what the person he says that to believes knows.

Claims to have done one act of debunking that surprised many people, yet never says what it was he debunked. He implies that it's pretty big and would make the believers all change their minds. Also claims to have debunked Hoaglands stuff as if he's the only one to have done it and likes to try taking credit for stuff that's already been debunked. Look at his John Walson thread and the DaVinci Crop Circle thread for proof of that. Both topics were already debunked before he came in with his "debunk".

Treats anyone on here that doesn't agree with him as if they're beneath him, but has the nerve to call others parasites and say they act like they own ATS.

Here's my favorite part. He apparently has a lot of great, compelling photographic and video evidence of sightings of his own. He talks about this all the time. Ask for the stuff and you get the usual response that looks like this: "Well I'd upload it but I have no idea how and ATS hasn't answered my e-mail for help since last year". Soon after he vanishes from the thread or won't post as much in it as he did before. More than a few people here have seen him do this. Yet, he LOVES demanding this same type of evidence from people on here and attacks when they don't have it. The guy has been offered help with uploading images and video from a few members. I've posted links to the tutorial video located here on ATS around 3 or 4 times and all the help goes on to be ignored. IMHO it's because everything he says is BS and he doesn't have anything he claims.

I could go on and on, but I see that more than enough people here already see through the guys BS so I won't even bother. I'll just sit here and enjoy watching this thread of his turn into a train wreck.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by nightmare_david]

reply to post by RiotComing


We will have to agree to disagree when it comes to that then as i place my absolute trust in folks like internos and jkrog,i know they are after the truth no matter where it may be. I can't say the same about folks who say they have had contact with Et's etc on ATS. Wish i could but from the hundreds of cases i have read i still can't.

reply to post by Skeptical Ed


This thread is the perfect example of Hypocricy, you insult the ones you call belivers
in the UFO Phenomena and yet you are here in this forum almost daily talking and
discussing about UFOs wich is a complete contradiction to your ridiculous statements.

Why are you wasting yout time, your life coming here to talk about this nonsense with
the bunch of belivers you despise. Why don't you make something more productive
with your life somewhere else instead of challenging those who want to belive whatever
they want, why don't you mind your own bussines. I know why. Because the UFO
Phenomena is part of your life, that's why you're here, then you are also a part
of the hypocricy. Skeptic or Beliver it does't matter as long as the UFO Phenomena
is present in people's lives like in your case so don't pretend to deny it, you need
those UFOs in your life, that's why you are a member of this ATS Aliens and UFOs
forum and a regular visitor, you need these discussions for good or for bad. Then
you are not better than those you call belivers, in fact you are worse, pretending
to own the universal knowledge to judge the people of the world who belive in the
UFO Phenomena. This thread results unsavoring and contributes nothing to the
subject.

Originally posted by free_spiritThen
you are not better than those you call belivers, in fact you are worse, pretending
to own the universal knowledge to judge the people of the world who belive in the
UFO Phenomena.

The only thing he's an expert in is himself. He's so full of himself it's actually made me sick once. The guy says everything as if it's all fact and rarely provides anything to back it up. Take his word for it or nothing else, pretty much.

I feel sorry for people who believe they're superior to others. It's just sad and pathetic IMHO.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by nightmare_david]

Stop debating with them and move on.

Its that simple. Not everyone has to agree with you for it to be true. People are spending way too much effort trying to convince the sceptics when only one opinion really matters - your own.

reply to post by RiotComing

While I agree that Jkrog08 and a few others here are certainly knowledgeable on ufo cases, none of it matters unless you have actual experiences. Only then can you fit in your knowledge with what you have actually experienced and had related to you from a higher source. We have a few contactees on this forum and I personally place more stock in what they have to say, rather than the likes of jkrog and internos etc (no disrespect to either of them - both do a great job). Members such as SoulOrb, ET_MAN and Observe50, we should all listen to what they have to say as well.

I agree that we must look at all aspects in our subject matter. Everything must be taken into account, not just one aspect here and one aspect there. One must look at the totality of the subject matter, from the highly speculative to the more solid cases that contain some types of evidence, other than hear-say.

Any type of scientific investigation, and yes ufology is one of them, is similar to an equation; You can't solve it unless everything is accounted for, if you are missing one part than you can not solve it, it is as simple as that. The variables in our case is of course the witness testimony from these "first hand experiencers", "whistleblowers', and anything else not physical or well documented.

The constants are the actual pieces of evidence (what little there is sadly), the radar reports, pictures, video, credible witness reports (ie; military, government, etc), trace evidence, etc. THEN we MUST look at everything and combine it together to get the most probable explanation. Unfortunately this takes a while as each case is a lot of work itself to disseminate fact from fiction. Sometimes, well a lot of times, logic and probability must be used on a case by case basis to look at circumstantial and peripheral evidence so we can build a larger picture and corroborate multiple reports, that when added together form a larger picture.

This is A LOT of work, interviewing these contactees, abductees, witnesses, reviewing research, evidence, etc. And a lot of this work is not being done because we can't stop arguing between ourselves, this whole "believer-skeptic" issue is not singular to ATS and it must stop as soon as possible.

There are a lot of stereotypes, generalizations and flat out naming calling in there... I see no reason for this topic other than slander. Though I'd love to entertain your childish reach for attention, I'm feeling unusually happy today, and don't really care to! To you, our world is skin deep.

To the OP. I think you may the the one who is illogical. There is enough evidence in our hands, and enough eyewitnesses to say that something is going on. What makes believing in life outside earth illogical?

You are unscientifically skeptical in my eyes. You are at the other end of the spectrum, "blindly skeptical." Just because some of us believe doesn't mean we don't have a skeptical eye, and question some things.

I kind of think you just want to start a nice little fight here on ATS, create some attention, something...

I've said all I need to say about this post, back to our regularly scheduled program.

Troy

reply to post by Skeptical Ed


I'm going to give you a star because I agree with you. Many believers need to question the evidence given before they make a conclusion! I'm a believer, but I always, always, ALWAYS do my research. You can't just believe everything you see or hear!

Originally posted by nightmare_david
Thanks for creating this thread so that more people can see how you really are.

One minute he's a skeptic and the next he's a believer. He acts as if he's this huge part of the ufology world and has been for years, implies that he personally knows a lot of the more well-known ufologists out there, but never says who he is. He also contradicts himself constantly. I also love how if you're against anything he says, you're automatically a "true believer" that believes everything despite the evidence against whatever it is. The guy has no idea at all what the person he says that to believes knows.

Claims to have done one act of debunking that surprised many people, yet never says what it was he debunked. He implies that it's pretty big and would make the believers all change their minds. Also claims to have debunked Hoaglands stuff as if he's the only one to have done it and likes to try taking credit for stuff that's already been debunked. Look at his John Walson thread and the DaVinci Crop Circle thread for proof of that. Both topics were already debunked before he came in with his "debunk".

Treats anyone on here that doesn't agree with him as if they're beneath him, but has the nerve to call others parasites and say they act like they own ATS.

Here's my favorite part. He apparently has a lot of great, compelling photographic and video evidence of sightings of his own. He talks about this all the time. Ask for the stuff and you get the usual response that looks like this: "Well I'd upload it but I have no idea how and ATS hasn't answered my e-mail for help since last year". Soon after he vanishes from the thread or won't post as much in it as he did before. More than a few people here have seen him do this. Yet, he LOVES demanding this same type of evidence from people on here and attacks when they don't have it. The guy has been offered help with uploading images and video from a few members. I've posted links to the tutorial video located here on ATS around 3 or 4 times and all the help goes on to be ignored. IMHO it's because everything he says is BS and he doesn't have anything he claims.

I could go on and on, but I see that more than enough people here already see through the guys BS so I won't even bother. I'll just sit here and enjoy watching this thread of his turn into a train wreck.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by nightmare_david]

You sir, just debunked the OP.

reply to post by nightmare_david


;cosigned;

this is not a second line.

here we go again. FIrst.. there are no skeptics. they are moon beams refracting light emmissions from gas particles on venus over swamps with natural chinese lanters that float and make it look like skeptics are real. lol
OP.. a lot of us just had this same discussion with a so called believer. Bottom line. WE ALL SEEK THE TRUTH! even we on the BELIEVER side of the proverbial fence realise SKEPTICS ARE NEEDED! without you guys going on and on and on and on about weather anomalies, swamp gas, birds, planes, and chinese lanterns the idiots in us would scream alien conspiracy, and what not.. without your incidious harping on theories, and what not... the newbs would have no way to learn how to look, and how to question. EVERYONE!! WE GET IT!!! LIKE IT OR NOT WE ARE PART OF A BLOODY TEAM! WE ALL SEEK A COMMON THING! TRUTH! Now Stop with this "Tired of believers, crap,. and believers STOP POSTING YOUR "ABSOLUTE PROOF UNDENIABLE" garbage. WE ON THE BELIEVER SIDE KNOW THIS IS NOT REMOTELY POSSIBLE! the next time I see "ALIEN PROOF" and the video shows a mexican dressed up like ET IM going to flip, kick myself in the toe, and come after you!!! (What I do when I get there is really not known as I will probably be tired, and have a sore toe)

reply to post by Solomons


A-BLOODY_MEN!