The Hell Problem

Originally posted by moocowman

Originally posted by SmokeandShadow

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by SmokeandShadow

 

Well this topic wasn't really about the validity of the scriptures.

Don't be ridiculous, if you didn't think the scriptures were valid you wouldn't be having a discussion about hell now would you ?

Or is it that you are in agreement that hell is imaginary and you'd just like to discuss it as you would Gotham City ?

Uhhh..No, I mean't what I said. I didn't make the thread to discuss the validity of the scriptures, plain and simple. It is self evident what I believe...don't be RIDICULous

If the scriptures are not valid then hell is not valid as it is an imaginary place invented by xtianity.

If the scriptures are valid then perhaps your post would have been better placed in an xtian discussion board not a conspiracy board.

By placing your thread in a conspiracy board you open yourself up to conspiracy theorists and atheists etc, who you appear to be asking to accept that your scriptures as valid in order to debate hell.

That my friend is religilous.

You mean to say if one is not a Christian ( I havn't seen the word "xtian' since I was 15 lol ) one can't discuss hell academically? I can discuss greek mythology just fine and don't believe it to be true...and you seem to obfuscate validity. You posit I am asking people to believe that the scriptures are divinely inspired...you're assertions are outside of textual validity, meaning and doctrine...

reply to post by Confused and Dazed!


Is it true that living in the flesh is Satan, which would be why we need to supposedly have this blind faith in order to get out of the flesh and go to heaven or something. This not my belief i just remember reading it somewhere and wanted to ask.

"hell" is just another way of describing force, your going to go to hell if you don't believe bla, bla bla,

When force is used, it's a good indication, your in the company of a false religion. Truth requires no force, lies do!

Right - God is the alpha Alpha and Omega - the beginning and the end.

Before he created Adam from the dust of the Earth - he knew all things, what was, what is, and what will be?

Before he put the tree in the garden, he knew Adam would sin - before he created the laws he delivered to Moses, he knew men would fail.

Before he spoke to men and promised them eternal damnation - he knew the names of those who would spend eternity in the eternal fire.

Before he even created Adam - he knew he was creating mortal men to fail, and he would be torturing them for eternity.

So - set up to fail - to be tortured for eternity.

THis is the guy that people want us to love, obey and revere?

Not I.

Originally posted by Amagnon
Right - God is the alpha Alpha and Omega - the beginning and the end.

Before he created Adam from the dust of the Earth - he knew all things, what was, what is, and what will be?

Before he put the tree in the garden, he knew Adam would sin - before he created the laws he delivered to Moses, he knew men would fail.

Before he spoke to men and promised them eternal damnation - he knew the names of those who would spend eternity in the eternal fire.

Before he even created Adam - he knew he was creating mortal men to fail, and he would be torturing them for eternity.

So - set up to fail - to be tortured for eternity.

THis is the guy that people want us to love, obey and revere?

Not I.

Well he was wrong then because didn't eve eat from the tree of knowledge? Either way, i get what your saying. Sounds like something Satan would do IMO. It would make sense, i mean how else would Satan get man to believe he was god?

[edit on 07/16/2009 by Lichter daraus]

[edit on 07/16/2009 by Lichter daraus]

Also, don't forget people. Adam and Eve were not just two people, but were two tribes of people, not sure if that is relevant or not, i just wanted to add that in there just in case others didn't know already.

reply to post by Lichter daraus


That wasn't my point at all. Life, in all it's incarnations are part of a cycle. Not satanic manifestations, as you opined. Mans spirit is no more roue' than a dung beetles is. Man is nature. Nature is natural, and is and of the one source of all things.

If your life's choices are such, that you want to cover yourself from head to toe with demonic tattoo's and ghee, while fornicating with a farrow of hogs, that does not mean the flesh is corrupt. It just means that you have some very decidedly of the charts needs. Whew!

There are professions that can help with that!

I am now, and will always be a part of the cosmos, and of the Dharma cycle.

Try as hard you want to disconnect, you are still part of the cycle. Tattoo's ghee,hogs and all.

Originally posted by bsbray11
I disagree.

Certainly within your rights to do so. Just a general statement: I never meant to give any impression that others need to agree with me.

Originally posted by bsbray11
If you are TRULY talking about the source of everything, that includes hell.

Even you and I can create things and yet not be in them. Else the play-doh I played with as a child has some explaining to do. I formed it, yet it stands on its own.

Originally posted by bsbray11
What exactly IS God to you, anyway?

See previous post. Although I only speak on one characteristic there, I think it's one of the most important ones.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Do you even know?

Yep.

Originally posted by bsbray11
I would hope it isn't an old man sitting on a throne in the clouds somewhere...

Why would he 1.) be old 2.) have a need to sit 3.) exist in one place alone such as a cloud?

Originally posted by bsbray11
And he's going to send me to hell?

That's a discussion between you and Him, neither would I know or have any say, other than to pray with/for someone else. Likewise, I'd appreciate anyone else sending prayer for me as well.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Btw, I am perfectly capable of experiencing, giving and receiving love without being Christian. Have been this way my whole life; being Christian or not Christian had absolutely no effect on this part of my life.

So God is with me after all, eh?

It's also written that 'doing good' is not enough (as previously quoted in John 3:16-21 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.") I cannot say what His judgement will be, but I do know how a person can be saved from it. We can both hope it'll be favorable, but it is a lot to risk.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Confused and Dazed!
reply to post by Lichter daraus

 

That wasn't my point at all. Life, in all it's incarnations are part of a cycle. Not satanic manifestations, as you opined. Mans spirit is no more roue' than a dung beetles is. Man is nature. Nature is natural, and is and of the one source of all things.

If your life's choices are such, that you want to cover yourself from head to toe with demonic tattoo's and ghee, while fornicating with a farrow of hogs, that does not mean the flesh is corrupt. It just means that you have some very decidedly of the charts needs. Whew!

There are professions that can help with that!

I am now, and will always be a part of the cosmos, and of the Dharma cycle.

Try as hard you want to disconnect, you are still part of the cycle. Tattoo's ghee,hogs and all.

What the hell are you talking about i never said anything about tattoos or f---in hogs. why are you implying i need help. Where do you get that i am trying disconnect geez. what were you reading. I hate when people put words in my mouth. I asked a simple f'n question because like i said,i read it somewhere on here, and i also stated that it was not my belief you need to re-read my friend.





[edit on 07/16/2009 by Lichter daraus]

Originally posted by Amagnon
THis is the guy that people want us to love, obey and revere?

Not I.

Love does not force destiny upon a person, making them a mindless robot. Love gives the ability to choose and hopes the right choice is made. Engaged/married people above all should know this to be true. Love is also perfect justice and adheres to truth, despite our wanting to judge God as fair or unfair.


[edit on 18-10-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Even you and I can create things and yet not be in them.

That is the difference between us, complex biological systems, and the unified field, from which everything arises.

Else the play-doh I played with as a child has some explaining to do. I formed it, yet it stands on its own.

Yes, and similarly, many of the other concepts you are playing with here are simplistic and not totally explanatory of the universe in which you live.

Originally posted by bsbray11
What exactly IS God to you, anyway?

See previous post. Although I only speak on one characteristic there, I think it's one of the most important ones.

Ok, so you can say "God is love," though you don't seem to mean it; what else is God?

Originally posted by bsbray11
I would hope it isn't an old man sitting on a throne in the clouds somewhere...

Why would he 1.) be old 2.) have a need to sit 3.) exist in one place alone such as a cloud?

Those are the same sorts of questions I would be asking, and more.

I really don't see a whole lot of difference between such a simplistic view of God, and the one you are putting forward. To reiterate, what I am looking for, is not the name "God," or a religion to follow, but an in-depth explanation of the workings of the entire universe. The thing that is the SOURCE of the entire universe. I don't follow science as religion, but even science has expounded more about how the universe operates than Christianity ever has as a religion. There is no denying that. Christianity simply is not a religion of knowledge; it is a religion of faith.

Originally posted by bsbray11
And he's going to send me to hell?

That's a discussion between you and Him

No, it's between me and you, because I was "just talking to God" ( ) and "he" says, no, you are not talking about "him."

It's also written that 'doing good' is not enough

Of course, of course. You have to get down on your knees in front of a pastor and give them all your money too, before God will love you.

Oh but you don't have to give them money anymore. Seriously, how can you be blind to the manipulation? There is nothing spiritual about consulting an ancient book for every question you have about life. Someone is pulling your leg hard.

reply to post by Confused and Dazed!


Ill remember to never ask you a question, as you will twist it somehow with garbage that i didn't even say. I have no idea where you got any of that BS in my QUESTION i asked.

[edit on 07/16/2009 by Lichter daraus]

[edit on 07/16/2009 by Lichter daraus]

reply to post by Lichter daraus


I was commenting on the statement about man believing himself to be God by presenting the idea that God created the Universe and therefore we are part of Him so in a way we are God and I also elaborated on a few other things.

Sorry if there was any confusion

Lichter daraus;

"Is it true that living in the flesh is Satan, which would be why we need to supposedly have this blind faith in order to get out of the flesh and go to heaven or something." quote;

I didn't accuse you of the example...simply if you where one to do wacko things to yourself, that does not mean that life, or the flesh is corrupt.

Beliefs are subjective...just as is Christian dogma. ( hateful) Everything is as it is supposed to be. Man can't be turtle, or the the turtle a man.

We are living as the thing we are supposed to be, right now. You, I , none of us had a choice in the matter. Accept what you are, and live it as best you can. You have the right to any choice you make..just don't be to hard on yourself about it. ( unless it hurts someone else that is )

We all know that it is over soon enough, and then we move on to another place, time, entity. So will you.

I am sorry if I inadvertently offended you. It wasn't my intent. Mea Culpa!

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Ok I re-read your post. I guess you could be right too, but I don't really put to much stock in this religion stuff. I have my beliefs and feel that's is all i need...

First HELL AND HADES ARE 2 DIFFERENT PLACES

Hell, is not for ever those who must face a second death are casted in these fires with NATAS the evil DRAGON AND HIS ANTICHRIST ECT. for the final death no more existance for them once they are casted. Now it may seem like forever to the casted but its temporary.



[edit on 10/19/09 by Ophiuchus 13]

Originally posted by Lichter daraus

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Try looking at it this way. The self referencing is exactly what it means. When you read it, put yourself as the one being referenced.

Empathize with God. See that life is here and now and not some unforeseen world. See the process by which you came forth, that it is the same forever. See that life only comes forth from living things.

Read the bible literally and metaphorically...both are correct. Literal because God is true and metaphorically because God is in you.

I think we have more in common already than you realize. But I hope you also realize that what you saying, many pastors all over this country would denounce as being "new agey." It is such a catch-all term for embracing traditional ignorance today over any fresh thought whatsoever.

But I actually have read many different passages of the Bible, mostly NT and gnostic work that was "banned from the Bible." And I have learned things from it. But I can say the same for the Hindu Bhagavad Gita, Zen Blue Cliff Records, the Tao te Ching, and a number of other philosophical/spiritual/religious works. Each has taught me an immense understanding that the other cultures lacked, and in fact kindled a living flame in me that does not speak in words but beyond them.

You know what is funny. I get accused all the time as being a new age thinker and people think I'm crazy when I tell them that the only life they have they are living and that you must have children to put forth your name. After telling them they must have children they turn instantly from "family" to I'm a sex cultist...and to that I must laugh.

If God is true, then I must look at the truth to find God. The truth is in the things that are right in front of us, as Jesus said. The truth therefore, at least what I am accountable to, is that the only life I know is here. The only way I know truthfully for life to go forward is to have children. This is the life in the blood.

We shed blood two ways. One leads to life, the other death.
1. Shed blood (by semen) to anoint the "alter" and thus make propreation for sin by way of passing over death into a new creation....a child made of two flesh becoming one....true marriage(two souls becoming one flesh). This can only be performed once a year by the high priest "In the temple"....once every 9 months

Or

2. Die having no "bloodline" left to proceed. This is called "the blood is on your head".....This is the second death....

We die to ourselves when we have children. We are no longer the center of attention. We lay down our fortunes and possessions, yeah all that we have to foster and follow the "son of man"...Hu-man.

"I lay down my life, that I might pick it up again"....Jesus

I'm right there with you on the "banned" books. After all it is paul who says that ALL scripture is good for learning and reproof. All means All and was said long before a KJV ever went into printing.

Peace

Well this just sucks, guess I'm gonna die the second death as i don't want children of my own, and I'm the last one in my family to carry on our name. oh well,

My Girl doesn't want children....how do you think I feel knowing what I know?

I'm the last one also in my family to carry on our name, but the truth is the truth.

I am the first and the last as are you.

"Forbid not the children to come unto me"....

Peace

Originally posted by Lichter daraus
Also, don't forget people. Adam and Eve were not just two people, but were two tribes of people, not sure if that is relevant or not, i just wanted to add that in there just in case others didn't know already.

Adam was never a single man. Adam means Mankind. Eve means Life giver.

Did you know that it is in the "End of Days" that Cain (Spear) and Able (Arrogant) (again descriptions not individuals) give their offerings or that by the end of Genesis 1:31...the whole creation is done beginning to end? Every other book, is telling the exact same story in greater and greater detail.

"Only the names and locations have been changed to protect the innocent"

Let there be light....is the first cell dividing in the womb and so on. It's all in the womb...the temple whose "curtains" were split top to bottom...

Want to see the arc of the covenant? Look at a uterus. Covenant means "a confederacy made by passing between two pieces of flesh".

You know the narrow path? It's between the hips. It is easier for a Gamal to go throw the eye of a needle, then for a rich man (one enjoying his own life) to enter into heaven....

The anti christ or "before christ" has no desire for women....because he desires no children thinking a name will save him. Little does he know it's his own name that does the saving....the name of the father. The "sur" name.

You know what the "Glory" of the lord is? It rhymes with "ork fashion". "oh my God" is usually said with it.

It's the same as it has been since the beginning. Generation to Generation...forever.

Peace

Peace

Originally posted by bsbray11
Yes, and similarly, many of the other concepts you are playing with here are simplistic and not totally explanatory of the universe in which you live.

They are simplistic to best template the model from one situational allegory to another. Christ did the same thing in parables. True a parable will never fully explain in detail the actual circumstance, but what's important is the point.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Ok, so you can say "God is love," though you don't seem to mean it;

Indeed I do mean it, what have I said to indicate otherwise?

Originally posted by bsbray11
what else is God?

God is perfectly just, whereas mankind has the inability to be completely fair since we're unable to see what is contained within a person's heart. God can see that spirit that eludes our eyes and can deliver a judgement that supersedes the wisest of wo/men. These two characteristics, I think, are the greatest keys in understanding who God really is. Certainly we can explore the rest of the traits a lot easier after these two.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Those are the same sorts of questions I would be asking, and more.

I'm glad we're on the same page . Questions are always good thing when ask in the sincere interest of a truthful answer.

Originally posted by bsbray11
To reiterate, what I am looking for, is not the name "God," or a religion to follow, but an in-depth explanation of the workings of the entire universe.

Awesome! But "Daniel-san, first learn walk, then learn fly".

Originally posted by bsbray11
Christianity simply is not a religion of knowledge; it is a religion of faith.

I'm not sure how anyone can say that without disregarding 2 Peter 1:5-7, Proverbs 1:5, Proverbs 4:2, Proverbs 9:9, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Corinthians 11:6, etc. Faith does not deny knowledge, nor knowledge faith, but knowledge justifies faith, and faith prompts a yearning to obtain knowledge.

Originally posted by bsbray11
No, it's between me and you, because I was "just talking to God" (

) and "he" says, no, you are not talking about "him."

I'm not sure why you're "just talking to God" when you can just talk to God, or why you say "he" when it is He, nor "him" unless it's someone other than Him.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Of course, of course. You have to get down on your knees in front of a pastor and give them all your money too, before God will love you.

And where are you getting this information?

Originally posted by bsbray11
There is nothing spiritual about consulting an ancient book for every question you have about life.

Why would anyone need to consult a book when I can consult with God? He's alive, listening and capable of answering for Himself. I can say however, not to be surprised if He asks people to do their homework because the answers are already there. Like on ATS, there's no reason to start a new topic on one that has been already thoroughly discussed unless it's bringing something unwritten already to the table.

[edit on 19-10-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
First HELL AND HADES ARE 2 DIFFERENT PLACES

No they're not. This is a fun game, I think I have the hang of it.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
Hell, is not for ever those who must face a second death are casted in these fires with NATAS the evil DRAGON AND HIS ANTICHRIST ECT.

Yes it is. Am I winning yet or are we tied for points?

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
for the final death no more existance for them once they are casted. Now it may seem like forever to the casted but its temporary.

Oh there's more, sorry. It is not temporary. Game set match?