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The Hell Problem

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posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God


Originally posted by mwm1331
The idea of sinners going to everlasting hellfire does not appear anywhere in the bible.

Mark 6:43 (this is Jesus talking here) "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by saint4God]


I'm not sure who posted this but anyway, does that mean that if you are "left behind", and you take the mark of the beast on your right hand, which supposedly damns you forever irrevocably, then after it has served it's purpose, if you cut off your hand and throw it into the fire, then you get to go to heaven? Inquiring minds would like to know.




posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 10:44 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Ok, well in this case I simply out-and-out disagree with such a ridiculous concept and find it literally inflammatory and disgusting to even assert than an infinitely-loving being would ever be party to such a rule.


Don't bother quoting your Bible to try to justify this to me, either.


Edit to add: Another poster mentioned "aeon" as being the correct word being translated. I was already aware of this gross mis-translation and even mentioned it in an earlier post on this very thread. If this is indeed the same passage then it does not even really say what you are asserting that it says.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by bsbray11]



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 10:49 PM
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Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Try looking at it this way. The self referencing is exactly what it means. When you read it, put yourself as the one being referenced.

Empathize with God. See that life is here and now and not some unforeseen world. See the process by which you came forth, that it is the same forever. See that life only comes forth from living things.

Read the bible literally and metaphorically...both are correct. Literal because God is true and metaphorically because God is in you.


I think we have more in common already than you realize. But I hope you also realize that what you saying, many pastors all over this country would denounce as being "new agey." It is such a catch-all term for embracing traditional ignorance today over any fresh thought whatsoever.

But I actually have read many different passages of the Bible, mostly NT and gnostic work that was "banned from the Bible." And I have learned things from it. But I can say the same for the Hindu Bhagavad Gita, Zen Blue Cliff Records, the Tao te Ching, and a number of other philosophical/spiritual/religious works. Each has taught me an immense understanding that the other cultures lacked, and in fact kindled a living flame in me that does not speak in words but beyond them.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by chiron613
 


Well all I can say is your signature pretty much tells us a lot about you. So since you do not know anything...I'd be careful quoting a book that also has a lot if love, joy, peace, mercy, forgiveness, compassion, on and on. By sides a little thing called salvation and atonement.

Now, the reason Moses was told to give all those clean rules was so the people would stay healthy and illness would stay out of the camps. Sorry, but I don't know anything about the camels.

Peace

Grandma



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 01:10 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Try looking at it this way. The self referencing is exactly what it means. When you read it, put yourself as the one being referenced.

Empathize with God. See that life is here and now and not some unforeseen world. See the process by which you came forth, that it is the same forever. See that life only comes forth from living things.

Read the bible literally and metaphorically...both are correct. Literal because God is true and metaphorically because God is in you.


I think we have more in common already than you realize. But I hope you also realize that what you saying, many pastors all over this country would denounce as being "new agey." It is such a catch-all term for embracing traditional ignorance today over any fresh thought whatsoever.

But I actually have read many different passages of the Bible, mostly NT and gnostic work that was "banned from the Bible." And I have learned things from it. But I can say the same for the Hindu Bhagavad Gita, Zen Blue Cliff Records, the Tao te Ching, and a number of other philosophical/spiritual/religious works. Each has taught me an immense understanding that the other cultures lacked, and in fact kindled a living flame in me that does not speak in words but beyond them.


You know what is funny. I get accused all the time as being a new age thinker and people think I'm crazy when I tell them that the only life they have they are living and that you must have children to put forth your name. After telling them they must have children they turn instantly from "family" to I'm a sex cultist...and to that I must laugh.

If God is true, then I must look at the truth to find God. The truth is in the things that are right in front of us, as Jesus said. The truth therefore, at least what I am accountable to, is that the only life I know is here. The only way I know truthfully for life to go forward is to have children. This is the life in the blood.

We shed blood two ways. One leads to life, the other death.
1. Shed blood (by semen) to anoint the "alter" and thus make propreation for sin by way of passing over death into a new creation....a child made of two flesh becoming one....true marriage(two souls becoming one flesh). This can only be performed once a year by the high priest "In the temple"....once every 9 months

Or

2. Die having no "bloodline" left to proceed. This is called "the blood is on your head".....This is the second death....

We die to ourselves when we have children. We are no longer the center of attention. We lay down our fortunes and possessions, yeah all that we have to foster and follow the "son of man"...Hu-man.

"I lay down my life, that I might pick it up again"....Jesus

I'm right there with you on the "banned" books. After all it is paul who says that ALL scripture is good for learning and reproof. All means All and was said long before a KJV ever went into printing.

Peace



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by chiron613
 


Well all I can say is your signature pretty much tells us a lot about you. So since you do not know anything...I'd be careful quoting a book that also has a lot if love, joy, peace, mercy, forgiveness, compassion, on and on. By sides a little thing called salvation and atonement.

Now, the reason Moses was told to give all those clean rules was so the people would stay healthy and illness would stay out of the camps. Sorry, but I don't know anything about the camels.

Peace

Grandma


Grandma....so good to see you. How are you feeling dear? I hope all is well with you.


keep smiling,
Ltru



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 06:51 AM
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reply to post by SmokeandShadow
 


S&F




that no one can confess Jesus as Lord apart from the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 12:3)


Satanists can do as much.

So what is it saying?

This is where the "church" turns Christ from being the savior of the world (John 4:42 , 1 JOhn 4:14, etc. ) into being a "personal" lord and savior (no scriptural backing).

They deny what He did. So they preach another christ. They are antichrist.

And yet they are looking for some kind of dictator to come onto the scene...

It amazes me that they can't see this.

And when you point it out to them, they get really really angry. They won't do it here because they know they won't get away with it, but try it on a "christian" board and see how long you last without getting banned. It's as if they just love the idea of people being tortured forever.

It's good to see you posted this thread. It lets me know I am not alone out here.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:05 AM
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Originally posted by christianpatrick
I'm not sure who posted this but anyway, does that mean that if you are "left behind", and you take the mark of the beast on your right hand, which supposedly damns you forever irrevocably, then after it has served it's purpose, if you cut off your hand and throw it into the fire, then you get to go to heaven? Inquiring minds would like to know.


No the quoted passage isn't exclusive to just Revelation and those who survive through it. In John 10:1 we find out that there's only one way to get to heaven whether you survive to see end-times or not. Left behind is an interesting topic altogether and there have been some threads about it too, so I don't want to deviate too far from this topic. I don't know if there's a way to 'reverse the mark' so to speak, but Christ has shown so far that while we live, we have a chance at redemption (like when he freed people from possession). It's post-mortem that appears to be judgement time. From that point, there is no mention of any of us being able to change our minds and will our way to heaven.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
Ok, well in this case I simply out-and-out disagree with such a ridiculous concept and find it literally inflammatory and disgusting to even assert than an infinitely-loving being would ever be party to such a rule.


Then your argument isn't with me, but with the Word of God. Which is between you and Him.


Originally posted by bsbray11
Don't bother quoting your Bible to try to justify this to me, either.


No problem, if you want to 'throw out the Book', there's no reason for me to continue to do so.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:07 AM
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reply to post by SmokeandShadow
 


I agree, thus this thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by PSUSA
This is where the "church" turns Christ from being the savior of the world (John 4:42 , 1 JOhn 4:14, etc. ) into being a "personal" lord and savior (no scriptural backing).


Wow, missed the part right after the most quoted phrase in the Bible? We all can say the first part in our sleep, but maybe not the second:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." - John 3:16-40

Indeed there is a difference proofed by the Bible between believers and non-believers.

I really wished there wasn't an eternal end, seriously. It would be cool, I think, that in the end, everyone will see and get a chance to say "sorry, I messed up with my life, can I have another shot?" but I have to go against my own selfish desire to understand, know and respect what God's expectations of us in this life are. It's His world, we're His creation, and it is His rules.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:40 AM
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So I suppose He isn't the savior of the world?

I guess He failed, huh? That is what you are saying.

Joh 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

All means all, except to theologians. It takes years of study and hard work to be able to turn all into hardly anyone.

Perhaps those are lies too??? That word "draw" means to drag, you know?
So, I guess your god created billions of people knowing they would spend "eternity" being torched and run through with pitchforks in "hell".

There's an answer. But people like you love the thought of your god (not a typo) torturing people (your enemies, ie: those that refuse to listen to you) to ever see the answer. That will teach them!!! Burn baby burn!

You seem to think it has to do with wishful thinking.



I have to go against my own selfish desire to understand, know and respect what God's expectations of us in this life are. It's His world, we're His creation, and it is His rules.


OK, be an imitator of your god. Play by your gods' rules.

The next time your kid(s) misbehave, soak them in gasoline and set them on fire and keep them alive for as long as you can. That's justice, right? Do it, or you are not as "righteous" as your god. Savor their screams the same way your god (again, not a typo) supposedly will.

Your god is a terrorist beyond anyones imagination. And whats really scary is that you will treat other people in the same way you see God. Beliefs have consequences and will show themselves in how you treat other people.






[edit on 18/10/09 by PSUSA]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Try looking at it this way. The self referencing is exactly what it means. When you read it, put yourself as the one being referenced.

Empathize with God. See that life is here and now and not some unforeseen world. See the process by which you came forth, that it is the same forever. See that life only comes forth from living things.

Read the bible literally and metaphorically...both are correct. Literal because God is true and metaphorically because God is in you.


I think we have more in common already than you realize. But I hope you also realize that what you saying, many pastors all over this country would denounce as being "new agey." It is such a catch-all term for embracing traditional ignorance today over any fresh thought whatsoever.

But I actually have read many different passages of the Bible, mostly NT and gnostic work that was "banned from the Bible." And I have learned things from it. But I can say the same for the Hindu Bhagavad Gita, Zen Blue Cliff Records, the Tao te Ching, and a number of other philosophical/spiritual/religious works. Each has taught me an immense understanding that the other cultures lacked, and in fact kindled a living flame in me that does not speak in words but beyond them.


You know what is funny. I get accused all the time as being a new age thinker and people think I'm crazy when I tell them that the only life they have they are living and that you must have children to put forth your name. After telling them they must have children they turn instantly from "family" to I'm a sex cultist...and to that I must laugh.

If God is true, then I must look at the truth to find God. The truth is in the things that are right in front of us, as Jesus said. The truth therefore, at least what I am accountable to, is that the only life I know is here. The only way I know truthfully for life to go forward is to have children. This is the life in the blood.

We shed blood two ways. One leads to life, the other death.
1. Shed blood (by semen) to anoint the "alter" and thus make propreation for sin by way of passing over death into a new creation....a child made of two flesh becoming one....true marriage(two souls becoming one flesh). This can only be performed once a year by the high priest "In the temple"....once every 9 months

Or

2. Die having no "bloodline" left to proceed. This is called "the blood is on your head".....This is the second death....

We die to ourselves when we have children. We are no longer the center of attention. We lay down our fortunes and possessions, yeah all that we have to foster and follow the "son of man"...Hu-man.

"I lay down my life, that I might pick it up again"....Jesus

I'm right there with you on the "banned" books. After all it is paul who says that ALL scripture is good for learning and reproof. All means All and was said long before a KJV ever went into printing.

Peace





Well this just sucks, guess I'm gonna die the second death as i don't want children of my own, and I'm the last one in my family to carry on our name. oh well,



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by Grandma
Now, the reason Moses was told to give all those clean rules was so the people would stay healthy and illness would stay out of the camps.


For an all knowing god, he sure messed up when he forgot to mention scurvy and how a simple orange or other fruit can cure it. It must have slipped his mind?



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 01:27 PM
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reply to post by PSUSA
 


Well I am glad this thread has reinforced you in some way. I believe release from a terrible bondage can be allowed with study of the subject. Its true that some will never see, the Lord has closed theres eyes, ears and mind so as not to understand, but we are still to have zeal. I will participate in the other threads as well since I believe doctrinal and psychological conspiracy to be to large for one thread.

To the poster who mentioned the bottomless pit in relation to an event horizon, I have thought about such things. Doesn't the event horizon just make a black hole appear black since light cannot travel past to make the contents ( or lack thereof) visible though? Photons are still present and oddly enough there is no consensus that black holes even exist. I tend to think it is all spiritual, but I could be wrong.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by SmokeandShadow
 


Also, to add black holes are not actually holes either. I will search for some info and post when i find some...



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 01:39 PM
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reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 


I have no doubt that the physical in life shadows the spiritual. Jesus used parables to portray spiritual ( the invisible )...so I have tough time believing, say, that being born again actually refers to procreation ( just an example ). The bible talks at length about ones own soul and mind. The scriptures clearly speak of resurrection as well. Just say'n



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 01:45 PM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 



Oh yeah bsb, I'm sorry I didn't make it clearer, but in an earlier post I didn't mean YOU hated God, I was just telling my story. I hated God. I am glad you are where you are spiritually.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 01:47 PM
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ok here is a little snippet:

It is, in fact, possible to orbit a black hole. You do not even have to be light years outside of it. You simply have to be outside the event horizon, the distance at which everything, even light, falls into the black hole. For a normal-sized black hole, between fifty and seventy miles is a safe distance to orbit.




Hers is the rest:curious.astro.cornell.edu...



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 01:48 PM
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reply to post by Lichter daraus
 


Oh, I know ( I like stephen hawking, Neil Tyson e.c.t) . One theory claims inside a singularity is a "foam" of some kind (been awhile) .

[edit on 18-10-2009 by SmokeandShadow]



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