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The Hell Problem

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posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 07:15 PM
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This is something I think about often. The churches ( catholic, baptist, pentacostal, lutheran, evangelical e.c.t ) refuse to drop not only the word "hell" ( which is actually translated from sheol, gehenna, tartarus and hades throught the bible respectively ) but maintain the doctrine of eternal punishment where, even if there were a traditional hell ( tradition of men I might add ) it could not be eternal...why? Because "forever and ever" and "everlasting" shouldn't even be in there! The words (greek) are aion snd aionios....which mean age,ages or pertaining to an age, not eternity!

Some might say "well then what about everlasting life?" That is indeed "age abiding life" but the new testament speaks of Immortality or "deathlessness" (greek). Would the unsaved being given immortality and suffering eternal destruction make any sense? Does it make any sense that a God that claims he "is love" would literally burn anyone while condemning the action of burning children in the OT? Does it make any sense for an infinite God to exact infinite pain, suffering and hopelessness for Christ on finite beings?

Also, many verses suggest all will be saved eventually ( while not everyone will enter the kingdom as that is different from salvation )

from www.tentmaker.org/.../Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

Lamentations 3:31-33(NKJ)For the Lord will not cast off forever.Though He causes grief,Yet He will show compassion According to the multitude of His mercies.For He does not afflict willingly,Nor grieve the children of men.

Acts 3:21tells us God has promised through all His holy prophets that He will restore ALL things. Furthermore, both Old Testament and New Testament writers and prophets tell us:that all earth’s families will be blessed through Christ, Abraham’s “Seed” (Genesis 12:3; Acts 3:23; Romans 4:13).

Galatians 3:8, this promised blessing means that all earth’s families will be turned from their sins; justified and set right with God;that success or failure at keeping God’s law has no bearing on whether or not this promised blessing will finally be bestowed, for the law cannot cancel this covenant (Galatians 3:17-21);that all earth’s families, therefore, will remember the Lord, turn to Him and worship Him (Psalm 22:27-28);

that all flesh will bless His name forever and sing His praise (Psalm 66:3-4, 145:21; Revelation 5:13);that His tender mercies are over ALL His works, and ALL His works shall praise Him (Psalm 145:9-10);that God’s anger is momentary but His mercy is everlasting (Psalm 103:8-10, 136; Micah 7:18);that mankind shall be blessed in Christ (Psalm 72:17);

that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess and give thanks to the Lord. Furthermore, they will swear to Him and oath of allegianceand give thanks that in Him they have righteousness and strength. And this will bring gloryto our loving Father. (Isaiah 45:21-24, NKJV, also see the Amplified Version; Philippians 2:9-11);

that no one can confess Jesus as Lord apart from the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 12:3)

you can read the rest here at www.tentmaker.org/.../Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

That last part is very significant...no one can confess Jesus as lord with out the Holy Spirit. So how will every knee bow and tongue confess? Well according to John Hagee, Jesus will break the knees of those do not kneel....what insanity. So a conspiracy of ignorance continues while the profound truth is stifled, ridiculed and attempted to be picked apart.

Aside from the theological end of things...does anyone think the "conspiracy " is motivated by fear of an overwhelming psychological and spiritual effect that shedding the doctrine of hell might possibly allow? I tend to think it would be positive in light of a relationship with Christ and would make a believers outlook far brighter...dangerously brighter for TPTB.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by SmokeandShadow]




posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 07:23 PM
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Since you know scripture so very well I won’t need to tell you what book or verse it is in. G_D tells us that he chooses who’s eyes to open and who’s eyes to remain closed. Those who see should pray for those who can’t. You can call it a matter of faith.



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 07:28 PM
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reply to post by Violater1
 


absolutely true. God is sovereign alone and the scriptures make that abundantly clear. Man on the other hand is subject to circumstances, his own body, mind and cause and effect in general. Free will sounds nice to us, but its more like a big multiple choice test LOL.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by SmokeandShadow]

[edit on 17-10-2009 by SmokeandShadow]



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 07:47 PM
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This is not a "hell" problem. This is a problem of following some archaic book that is thousands of years old. Of course you're going to get some pretty warped notions of what God is all about. Folks were different back then. They had different lives, different world-views.

Don't take the Bible literally. It's metaphor at best; at worst, it's very bad horror literature.

Back when Moses was giving his laws, people had to be told not to mate with their camels. They had to be told to bathe at least once a week, whether they needed it or not. They had to be told all kinds of things that probably sounded pretty crazy to them. And then they had to back it up with, "Why? Because God will kill you if you don't obey". OK, so they left the camels alone, took baths, etc.

Later on the punishment became eternal damnation, God will let you suffer forever. Still later, it became more along the lines of "Your life will be smoother if you follow the rules". As we've become more civilized, the threats haven't had to be as harsh.

Hell is a scary monster story told among children who are afraid of the dark.



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 08:13 PM
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reply to post by chiron613
 


Ehhhh....

Well this topic wasn't really about the validity of the scriptures...I figured an athiest would at least appreciate the truth about such doctrine (destructive at that) even if they don't have faith. It can still be discussed academically.



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 08:30 PM
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Leave the concept of "hell" be... Those of us who are more intelligent can make good use of it.

For example, the idea that an infinite-loving God could send you to a horrible place for forever after you die, simply for not believing/having faith, etc., is the very thing that turned me away from Christianity.

It took a while, but I always thought, "How could God do that when not even I would do that, and I am not even infinitely loving?"

It became very clear and obvious to me, this was a fear tactic by the church to keep people in line, nothing more. Nothing more than a fairy tale going for it, literally you DO have to have faith because there sure as *hell* isn't anything else that would support such a ridiculous idea.



Then I come to find out later that the equivalent of "hell" in the original Greek was not something you went to forever, but only for an undefined period of time, literally "aeon," which is technically defined just as I said. The fact that Christians run away with saying you will go to hell forever just reinforced the fact to me that people are just trying to scare the hell out of you to get you to believe their gobbledy-gook. And for too many people, it actually works.



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 08:43 PM
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hell's contents get pitched in lake of fire.
i looked it up and lake of fire is further broken down into
harbour or haven of fire.
AND it's an egyptian place, mentioned in their old texts, like the coffin texts and the book of the dead. in those texts in the lake of fire is a pool of red liquid surrounded on all sides by fire signs and in another example, by babboons. it's supposedly in the underworld.
personally, i think it's the bottomless pit and since i thinik the bottomless pit is a star gate with an event horizon that makes it look like a lake, i've been theorizing that it's a star gate to mars (hence the red symbollism, or some other dimension).



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 08:43 PM
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Hell is God's appointed place for people that want nothing to do with Him, and would like Him completely out of their lives. God being the loving God that He is, will not force anyone to serve Him, nor will He obliterate them from existance for not serving Him. The soul/consciousness is not material, so, how can it be destroyed anyways? It just so happens that everything that we consider "good" comes from God, ie love, joy, peace, happiness, light etc. Logically then, a place without God would be full of fear, torment, pain, suffering, misery, hmm sounds like hell?

This argument reminds me of a spoiled teen that chooses to leave the comfort of their parent's house because they are sick of the rules. Are the parents evil, or to blame that the child is living in filth and eating garbage, when they chose to not live comfortably? No. This is why there will be no excuses in the end, because we make our bed, and God lets us sleep in them.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by kingofmd]



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by kingofmd
God being the loving God that He is, will not force anyone to serve Him, nor will He obliterate them from existance for not serving Him. The soul/consciousness is not material, so, how can it be destroyed anyways? It just so happens that everything that we consider "good" comes from God, ie love, joy, peace, happiness, light etc. Logically then, a place without God would be full of fear, torment, pain, suffering, misery, hmm sounds like hell?


So if I go to hell, let's say, for whatever reason, I don't enjoy it very much, and I don't want to be a part of it.

So then according to you, a part of me at least must still be rooted in God, ie the "good things."

So then why must I continue to suffer in hell eternally when God should know full well that I would no longer want to be there, and has the power to change it?


Btw, the God you are talking about is not the creator of the entire universe. If he is only the source of GOOD things, that means he is only half the picture. The other half must have come from "something else," which necessitates that there is something beyond both bad things and God, that gives rise to both of them. If you say the "bad things" are from Satan, well, God made Satan, too, and gave Satan every single characteristic that belongs to him. So God would still ultimately also be the source of all bad things, too. Think about that for a second. It seems to me you have not really found unity, the source, etc. You only worship graven images in the form of ideas, that make no more sense than Zeus and Poseidon in the larger context. You have not found the thing that gives rise to ALL of reality, which is the TRUE creator.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by bsbray11]



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 09:04 PM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 



Thats a great point you made, quite possibly unwittingly. The false doctrines and nonsense of christiandom as whole have obfuscated the very truth they purport to preach. It all becomes gobbledy-gook...even Jesus...

Suddenly the bathwater looks dirty and the whole bathroom is demolished along with the baby. I know this first hand...you hate God and look to shed you're faith forever with what is said to be normal, logical, reasonable, intelligent and open minded...but it isn't. Its like closing one of you're eyes and looking through only one. You may claim to be fine and walk alright, but you are still blind on the closed side, unable to see the rest of the picture....the seed (faith) is snatched away before it can take root and grow. Or worse yet, you fall away from your first love (Jesus)

ps..God created evil...you would like bible-truths.com ...trust me.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by SmokeandShadow]



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 09:17 PM
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reply to post by SmokeandShadow
 


I was gonna say something about how god would of had to create evil too. The god of the bible is a very nasty vengeful god if you ask me. I don't fallow this god never have never will.



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 09:20 PM
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This topic has been rehashed many times over the years on ATS. Both the opening remarks and responses have been addressed before. While it's true that human nature is to repeat itself over time (this discussion has actually been going on for about two thousand years), a search here on ATS will help review ground already covered. Instead of making a new repeating thread, we could continue an old one, or start a new one at the point where the others leave off. Maybe we can pick up on this one from 2005?
www.belowtopsecret.com...

"More proof of Hell:

Originally posted by mwm1331
The idea of sinners going to everlasting hellfire does not appear anywhere in the bible.

Mark 6:43 (this is Jesus talking here) "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life criplled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' Everyone will be salted with fire."

The message I take from this: Hell sucks, don't even start to go there."

Personally I'd rather someone to come to God out of love, not fear.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 09:28 PM
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Originally posted by SmokeandShadow
Suddenly the bathwater looks dirty and the whole bathroom is demolished along with the baby. I know this first hand...you hate God


I was following up until this part....

I don't hate God. I hate lies. And I also don't like organized religion, for reasons history shows well enough and I should not have to elaborate.

I love life, I feel a very strong connection to the source, the creator, whatever you want to call it. I feel such a strong personal relationship to "it," that I feel totally comfortable calling it by many other names besides "God," which has obvious Christian connotations, and Christians can't seem to make their mind up about "God" even amongst themselves. Not to mention, the word "God" is so important to them, which just goes to show that they do not really understand.

There is no denying the thing in which I "believe," and I have no need for faith, either. Jesus said in the Gospel of Thomas (banned from the Bible) that the truth is living and the kingdom of heaven is inside you. Words themselves are not alive, neither is there any kingdom within them. I don't get caught up in the words. I live in my own heart, have complete trust in the entire universe, and I fear no evil.



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
"More proof of Hell:

Originally posted by mwm1331
The idea of sinners going to everlasting hellfire does not appear anywhere in the bible.

Mark 6:43 (this is Jesus talking here) "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life criplled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' Everyone will be salted with fire."


So, even for someone who takes Bible scripture as 100% truth, you have shown a passage where hellfire is said to be eternal, but nothing about individuals/souls/whatever being sent there for all eternity after death. That's a big difference.

For myself, scripture never justifies itself. Ie, the whole self-referencing thing doesn't cut butter. One could equally defend Hinduism on such grounds, using only Hindu texts and arguing solely from a firm Hindu viewpoint, etc.



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 09:42 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
So, even for someone who takes Bible scripture as 100% truth, you have shown a passage where hellfire is said to be eternal, but nothing about individuals/souls/whatever being sent there for all eternity after death. That's a big difference.


"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

...The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:10-22

[edit on 17-10-2009 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 09:44 PM
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Originally posted by SmokeandShadow
This is something I think about often. The churches ( catholic, baptist, pentacostal, lutheran, evangelical e.c.t ) refuse to drop not only the word "hell" ( which is actually translated from sheol, gehenna, tartarus and hades throught the bible respectively ) but maintain the doctrine of eternal punishment where, even if there were a traditional hell ( tradition of men I might add ) it could not be eternal...why? Because "forever and ever" and "everlasting" shouldn't even be in there! The words (greek) are aion snd aionios....which mean age,ages or pertaining to an age, not eternity!

Some might say "well then what about everlasting life?" That is indeed "age abiding life" but the new testament speaks of Immortality or "deathlessness" (greek). Would the unsaved being given immortality and suffering eternal destruction make any sense? Does it make any sense that a God that claims he "is love" would literally burn anyone while condemning the action of burning children in the OT? Does it make any sense for an infinite God to exact infinite pain, suffering and hopelessness for Christ on finite beings?

Also, many verses suggest all will be saved eventually ( while not everyone will enter the kingdom as that is different from salvation )

from www.tentmaker.org/.../Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

Lamentations 3:31-33(NKJ)For the Lord will not cast off forever.Though He causes grief,Yet He will show compassion According to the multitude of His mercies.For He does not afflict willingly,Nor grieve the children of men.

Acts 3:21tells us God has promised through all His holy prophets that He will restore ALL things. Furthermore, both Old Testament and New Testament writers and prophets tell us:that all earth’s families will be blessed through Christ, Abraham’s “Seed” (Genesis 12:3; Acts 3:23; Romans 4:13).

Galatians 3:8, this promised blessing means that all earth’s families will be turned from their sins; justified and set right with God;that success or failure at keeping God’s law has no bearing on whether or not this promised blessing will finally be bestowed, for the law cannot cancel this covenant (Galatians 3:17-21);that all earth’s families, therefore, will remember the Lord, turn to Him and worship Him (Psalm 22:27-28);

that all flesh will bless His name forever and sing His praise (Psalm 66:3-4, 145:21; Revelation 5:13);that His tender mercies are over ALL His works, and ALL His works shall praise Him (Psalm 145:9-10);that God’s anger is momentary but His mercy is everlasting (Psalm 103:8-10, 136; Micah 7:18);that mankind shall be blessed in Christ (Psalm 72:17);

that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess and give thanks to the Lord. Furthermore, they will swear to Him and oath of allegianceand give thanks that in Him they have righteousness and strength. And this will bring gloryto our loving Father. (Isaiah 45:21-24, NKJV, also see the Amplified Version; Philippians 2:9-11);

that no one can confess Jesus as Lord apart from the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 12:3)

you can read the rest here at www.tentmaker.org/.../Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

That last part is very significant...no one can confess Jesus as lord with out the Holy Spirit. So how will every knee bow and tongue confess? Well according to John Hagee, Jesus will break the knees of those do not kneel....what insanity. So a conspiracy of ignorance continues while the profound truth is stifled, ridiculed and attempted to be picked apart.

Aside from the theological end of things...does anyone think the "conspiracy " is motivated by fear of an overwhelming psychological and spiritual effect that shedding the doctrine of hell might possibly allow? I tend to think it would be positive in light of a relationship with Christ and would make a believers outlook far brighter...dangerously brighter for TPTB.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by SmokeandShadow]


Hello smoke and shadow.

There are two trees. Life and Good and Evil.

Life is family or "the family tree"...the tree of life. Unless you eat from this tree, you shall not see life as the only life you will witness of yours that goes forward is in your children. Once you are dead, you are dead. No More you only your traits..."The life is in the blood".

or

Good and Evil
This is believing in Wood or "the cross"...the mark of cain. It is vanity, because once your life is over, it's over and having not put forward life, that is "the cross over", all you will have known is Good and Evil. Same as the above choice except your line is done on earth and you are remembered no more, having no one to remember you.

Hell comes from Kel or better known as "Cell". To go to Gehenna means to "Re-Generate" hence, you will be in paradise, that is, the beginning while those "baring" the son of man will go forward. Well they won't, but their "Name" will.

Once you are dead, the only thing of you that lives on is your memory, that is why it is so important to do right by people...."The living God".

Like shoots and ladders.

"The son of man" must suffer many things and be rejected by "this" generation.

Anti christ means "Before" christ. Christ will always be "a child". Hinder children from coming forth, congrates....you are antichrist...before christ.

Hell is basically being in the dark spiritually, but once you are dead....your dead. You don't need to worry because you won't even exist except for in the mind of "the living god", that is Humanity



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 09:48 PM
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egyptian lake of fire



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 09:50 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by bsbray11
So, even for someone who takes Bible scripture as 100% truth, you have shown a passage where hellfire is said to be eternal, but nothing about individuals/souls/whatever being sent there for all eternity after death. That's a big difference.


"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

...The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:10-22

[edit on 17-10-2009 by saint4God]


Forever and ever is not what you think it means. It is Aeon. 10 Generations or about 1000 years which ever comes first.

"Vanishing point" a time out of mind.

"Wither in the body or out of the body, I do not know..." Paul



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by saint4God
"More proof of Hell:

Originally posted by mwm1331
The idea of sinners going to everlasting hellfire does not appear anywhere in the bible.

Mark 6:43 (this is Jesus talking here) "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life criplled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' Everyone will be salted with fire."


So, even for someone who takes Bible scripture as 100% truth, you have shown a passage where hellfire is said to be eternal, but nothing about individuals/souls/whatever being sent there for all eternity after death. That's a big difference.

For myself, scripture never justifies itself. Ie, the whole self-referencing thing doesn't cut butter. One could equally defend Hinduism on such grounds, using only Hindu texts and arguing solely from a firm Hindu viewpoint, etc.


Try looking at it this way. The self referencing is exactly what it means. When you read it, put yourself as the one being referenced.

Empathize with God. See that life is here and now and not some unforeseen world. See the process by which you came forth, that it is the same forever. See that life only comes forth from living things.

Read the bible literally and metaphorically...both are correct. Literal because God is true and metaphorically because God is in you.

Imagine you were going to go to bed, but right before you went to sleep you had this amazing idea for a story and jotted it down in full detail, then went to sleep.

Upon waking you forgot that you wrote this script and while you find the script amazing, it makes no sense because you can't relate to the character. Then half way through your day you start remembering little pieces of the script, which is odd, because you don't remember the script (even though you wrote it) because your so clouded by your sleep. Little by little the story becomes more and more familiar as you keep remembering things from it, but still don't know where it is coming from.

Only you can reconcile scripture to yourself. After all, it is talking specifically to you.

Peace



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 10:19 PM
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Originally posted by kingofmd
Hell is God's appointed place for people that want nothing to do with Him, and would like Him completely out of their lives. God being the loving God that He is, will not force anyone to serve Him, nor will He obliterate them from existance for not serving Him. The soul/consciousness is not material, so, how can it be destroyed anyways? It just so happens that everything that we consider "good" comes from God, ie love, joy, peace, happiness, light etc. Logically then, a place without God would be full of fear, torment, pain, suffering, misery, hmm sounds like hell?

This argument reminds me of a spoiled teen that chooses to leave the comfort of their parent's house because they are sick of the rules. Are the parents evil, or to blame that the child is living in filth and eating garbage, when they chose to not live comfortably? No. This is why there will be no excuses in the end, because we make our bed, and God lets us sleep in them.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by kingofmd]


I am going to assume you can't prove any of that with scriptural backing?

God created evil...its like the ugly scaffolding on a building..the scaffolding runs its use and is dismantled! Of course you would have us believe the scaffolding is the unrepentant sinner when it is in fact just one of many buildings.

As far as the hypothetical teen...What about the prodigal son?What parent locks their child out forever hmmm? God does not "let us sleep in it" that is foolishness...he chasens whom he loves. You know what brimstone does? Its sulphur and it cleanses! You going to lock you're child in a basement for eternity or wash his mouth out when he screams "I HATE YOU" ( of which I am guilty of saying....) ? That choosing hell balogna is a slap in the face of the "saviour of the world" Jesus Christ and attempts to absolve God of responsibility and places man and Satan higher than him.



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