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UFO skeptics don't use reason

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posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by Matrix Rising

Humans always come to conclusions based on the available evidence.



Your statement above is wrong, wrong, wrong!

"SOME humans always come to conclusions based on the available evidence." would be a better way of putting it.

I also use my imagination to consider the magic invisible evidence too.

Why limit possibilities and never consider more than what you're given?




posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 12:50 AM
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reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


Of course they don't use reason... because they are unreasonable. They would not believe their was slavery unless "they" were forced to pick cotton on a Plantatation in 1850. And even then they would say - "Show me a picture... a foot print... naw, that was not me.".



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 01:03 AM
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Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by Stillalive
doomsdayrex your always here to discredit people and call names. why dont you stop trolling man?


How is having a discussion "trolling" other than you don't like my opinion? Disagreement is not trolling. However, using "trolling" as an ad hominem to attack someone you don't agree with for the sin of disagreeing is itself trolling.


Amazing! I just read that thread by Skeptical Ed on skeptics and believers and he was being given the same treatment as you. I wish people here would act a little more mature and deal with the thread topic instead of trying to control contributors.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 08:21 AM
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Surely all of us have had our fair share of debates and arguments with these kinds of people..the skeptics who refuse to listen to any other perspectives that may go against their stubborn beliefs..they arent usually able, it seems, to open their minds at all and instead close it off to feel 'safe' that they are right and everyone else that doesnt believe the same as them are of course, wrong.. What frusterates me the most is the constant calling for proof.. solid proof is sadly not yet attainable due to the levels of governmental secrecy over the past few decades.. What of the numerous Christians who refuse to believe in UFOs, other dimensions and alien life forms because they havent ever seen one themselves? how then do they believe in their God or Jesus? (and i'm sorry, a warm fuzzy feeling doesnt prove Gods existance)!
Over all, its most likely easier for the skeptics to simply believe everyone who believes differently to them are crazy head cases and they are centred in their little closed off world feeling safe and content in their lack of real thought..to think about things such as this would then make them doubt much of what they were raised in this society since day one of life, to trust is fact..it would turn any religious system they are a part of on its head..causing massive changes in themselves and life around them.. but most likely they dont have care or energy to think outside of their tiny box..frustrating to say the least. Please know i am not saying we who believe are 100% correct, because as i said previously, no one has solid proof.. but there are far too many real accounts, seen by more than one or two people that other life forms do indeed exist, and i refuse to close my eyes and pretend its not highly likely..eventually i do believe facts, proof and disclosure will one day arrive..on that day, i have a few people on my phones speed dial who i will just have to call and rub it in with a big immature HA! lol



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 09:38 AM
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Originally posted by Full_Vision
Surely all of us have had our fair share of debates and arguments with these kinds of people..the skeptics who refuse to listen to any other perspectives that may go against their stubborn beliefs..they arent usually able, it seems, to open their minds at all and instead close it off to feel 'safe' that they are right and everyone else that doesnt believe the same as them are of course, wrong.. What frusterates me the most is the constant calling for proof.. solid proof is sadly not yet attainable due to the levels of governmental secrecy over the past few decades..


The "open mind" card also frustrates me to some degree in the sense that I can't even begin to understand how it plays out in UFO discussion. For example when a video is posted the so called "open minded" immediately believe it is an UFO while the rest of us "close minded" are open to other explanations and go do the research. How exactly does being open to other possibilities defines us as "close minded"? In my opinion there is no better example of a closed mind than one that is ruled by belief instead of fact and curiosity.

There was a wonderful thread where the most notorious "sceptics" of ATS (as they are called) were asked if there were any UFO cases that puzzled them and if so which they were. Everyone had several cases that fit the description and they presented the research and facts surrounding those cases and explained why they puzzled them so. It gave those cases and the field a lot more credibility in my opinion.


Originally posted by Full_Vision
[What of the numerous Christians who refuse to believe in UFOs, other dimensions and alien life forms because they havent ever seen one themselves? how then do they believe in their God or Jesus? (and i'm sorry, a warm fuzzy feeling doesnt prove Gods existance)!


So you're frustrated when people demand proof of UFOs but as it concerns religious beliefs you are frustrated at people that believe in God without proof?

This is I think the problem with belief - it turns ufology into an angry discussion. On any given thread on this forum whenever a video or a photo is presented every time anyone tries to even consider the possibility that there is another explanation to that evidence other than alien visitation you immediately see a cry of outrage from those who don't need facts they just believe and to even mention the word "proof" is an insult to their belief.

Well... the difference between Christianity and Ufology is that one is a faith and the other is (or tries to be) a science and if there is any disclosure coming it wont be due to faith - it will be brought forth by facts, research and yes... proof.


Originally posted by Full_Vision
Over all, its most likely easier for the skeptics to simply believe everyone who believes differently to them are crazy head cases and they are centred in their little closed off world feeling safe and content in their lack of real thought..to think about things such as this would then make them doubt much of what they were raised in this society since day one of life, to trust is fact..it would turn any religious system they are a part of on its head..causing massive changes in themselves and life around them.. but most likely they dont have care or energy to think outside of their tiny box..frustrating to say the least.


Refusing to consider alternatives and research evidence properly deciding to instead just believing it was an alien event seems like a pretty tiny box to me. Deciding to ignore other opinions and facts in favour of simple belief seems like a tiny box too. Sorry. I don't mean to sound antagonistic and apologise in advance if I do but we really disagree on this "open mind" issue
We can of course agree to disagree though.


Originally posted by Full_Vision
Please know i am not saying we who believe are 100% correct,
because as i said previously, no one has solid proof.. but there are far too many real accounts, seen by more than one or two people that other life forms do indeed exist, and i refuse to close my eyes and pretend its not highly likely..eventually i do believe facts, proof and disclosure will one day arrive..on that day, i have a few people on my phones speed dial who i will just have to call and rub it in with a big immature HA! lol


The day these facts, proof and disclosure come to light wont be brought forth because people believed. That day will be brought forth because of discernment and the search for proof. When ufology isn't a messy field riddled with hoaxes everyone wants to believe in and researchers that don't do any serious research.

On a side note when that day comes feel free to call me to deliver your "HA!" but I probably will not be picking up the phone that day because I'll be immensely thrilled giving my full attention every single detail of that event.


Cheers.

[edit on 19-10-2009 by InTrueFiction]



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 10:30 AM
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reply to post by InTrueFiction
 


Skeptics v Believers....It all comes down to you see want you want to see.

In this forum and many other places the skeptic often times belittles those with the burning questions..not all... but in my opinion the majority.

90% of my experiences have been ridiculed and chalked up to explanations that make even less sense. The remaining 10% is made up of truly bizarre opinions and those that actually pay attention and methodically use deductive reasoning. I find solace in the later.

I came to ATS because of a particular sighting and of all the members I spoke with there were two that I felt attempted a true analysis. The percentages are even less out here in the world.

The opening of this thread is loaded with possibilities for a real discussion and I have yet to see any conversation pertaining to them.

My favorite is the Travis Walton case and all those witnesses. We condemn people to death with less.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 10:43 AM
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reply to post by InTrueFiction
 


This post shows exactly why skeptics are closed minded and they don't read and atudy the evidence. They make general statements like these that are illogical. You said:



This is I think the problem with belief - it turns ufology into an angry discussion. On any given thread on this forum whenever a video or a photo is presented every time anyone tries to even consider the possibility that there is another explanation to that evidence other than alien visitation you immediately see a cry of outrage from those who don't need facts they just believe and to even mention the word "proof" is an insult to their belief.


Again, the skeptic will say silly things like "those who don't need facts they just believe." People are not coming to these conclusions absent of any evidence. People are not looking at these things in a vacuum. The skeptic is very illogical and they have convinced themselves that there's no evidence and people are just accepting these things blindly. This shows the sad state of skepticism. They are so illogical, they can't even admit that people are coming to these conclusions based on evidence and research. In their minds, people have to be just accepting these things.

Here's just a tiny bit of some evidence.


Bill Chalker is one of Australia’s leading UFO researchers and the author of The OZ Files: The Australian UFO Story and Hair of the Alien: DNA and Other Forensic Evidence of Alien Abduction.

Bill's personal 'top ten' regional Australasian case list...

1. 31 August 1954 Sea Fury case, near Goulbourn, NSW, Australia (experienced naval pilot, radar visual confirmation, independent ground witnesses, apparent intelligent responses to witnesses’ thoughts about possible collision)

2. 23 July 1992 Peter Khoury “Hair of Alien” DNA case, Sydney, Australia (abduction-type encounter with female Nordic blonde yields anomalous hair sample that suggests “hybrid origin” and unusual genetic profiles)

3. 27 June 1959 Father Gill UFO entity sighting, Boianai, Papua New Guinea (credible multiple-witness sighting of animate entities on UFO with intelligent interactions)

4. 30 September 1980 George Blackwell’s UFO landing and physical trace case, Rosedale, Victoria, Australia (compelling array of physical evidence – ground trace, missing water, effects on witness, other witness)

5. 8 August 1993 Kelly Cahill’s abduction experience, Narre Warren North, Victoria, Australia (possible independent multiple-witness UFO encounter with abduction aspects and physical evidence)

6. 19 January 1966 George Pedley’s UFO nest encounter, Tully, Queensland, Australia (daylight close encounter with UFO take-off leaving physical evidence – “UFO nest”)

7. 14 April 1966 Ron Sullivan’s “bent headlight beam” experience, Burkes Flat, Victoria, Australia (striking UFO encounter, physical traces, bent light beams, possible related fatalities)

8. 6 April 1966 Westall school daylight UFO landing encounter, Westall, Victoria, Australia (multiple-witness daylight landing, physical traces, “cover-up” dimensions)

9. 1977–78 Gisborne UFO abduction milieu, Gisborne, New Zealand (complex and high strangeness UFO and abduction milieu – entities, multiple witnesses, multiple abductions)

10. May – August 1973 Tyringham Dundurrabin intense UFO flap area, New South Wales, Australia (long-term intense UFO flap, multiple witnesses, physical effects, paranormal aspects)


Here's some more:


Nick Pope once ran the British government’s UFO desk at the Ministry of Defence, and has since written a number of books on UFOs, including Open Skies, Closed Minds and The Uninvited.

1. Rendlesham Forest Incident, December 1980 – UFO landing.

2. The Belgian Wave, March 1990 – UFO tracked on radar; F-16 fighters launched in attempted intercept.

3. The Cosford Incident, March 1993 – Direct overflight of two RAF bases by large triangular UFO.

4. RAF Lakenheath/RAF Bentwaters, August 1956 – Radar/visual case.

5. Manchester Airport, 1995 – Near-miss between UFO and civil aircraft.

6. Captain Zaghetti’s Sighting, 1991 – Near-miss between UFO and civil aircraft.

7. Pitlochry Photograph, 1990 – Diamond-shaped UFO in daylight; MoD technical analysis finds no evidence of fakery.

8. Iranian Intercept, 1976. F-4 Phantom jets chase UFOs.

9. North Sea Overtake, 1990 – RAF Tornados overtaken by UFO; other sightings and radar detections in Europe.

10. Captain Graham Sheppard, 1967 – Two radar/visual sightings.


churchofcriticalthinking.org...

We have accumulated a lot of evidence over the years and there's a lot to weigh. There also people doing serious research in these areas but the skeptic has this illogical view that people are reaching these conclusions in a vacuum and without any facts.

Here's more:


The following presents a statistical analysis of data found in 3,189 reports involving observations of anomalous phenomena or objects on or near the ground resulting in physical effects generated by the unknown objects observed. These events took place in 91 countries between 1490 and 2006. There are hundreds of additional reports of possible trace sites which do not involve the observation of a UFO. All but the most significant of these events have been removed from the primary files and located in a secondary catalog.The analysis permits certain regularities of these phenomena to be brought out. The data indicates there is a certain type of phenomenon which shows stable statistical properties.


www.ufophysical.com...

When a skeptic acts like there's no evidence to weigh and people are reaching these decisions in a vacuum, it shows that the skeptic doesn't care about evidence. They just want to make these illogical, general statements.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by InTrueFiction
 


Skeptics v Believers....It all comes down to you see want you want to see.

In this forum and many other places the skeptic often times belittles those with the burning questions..not all... but in my opinion the majority.

90% of my experiences have been ridiculed and chalked up to explanations that make even less sense. The remaining 10% is made up of truly bizarre opinions and those that actually pay attention and methodically use deductive reasoning. I find solace in the later.

I came to ATS because of a particular sighting and of all the members I spoke with there were two that I felt attempted a true analysis. The percentages are even less out here in the world.

The opening of this thread is loaded with possibilities for a real discussion and I have yet to see any conversation pertaining to them.

My favorite is the Travis Walton case and all those witnesses. We condemn people to death with less.



I think all of the cases listed are worthy of lengthy discussion. So much that they each would deserve their own thread so that all the information regarding them could be spread out in front of us for every member to put in their knowledge and effort to research further. That list is just being used here as proof for belief though. And it isn't.

You say you are used to having sceptics ridicule you... I say I am used to having believers ridicule me...
in the end neither you nor I are paying attention to what really matters - the cases themselves. Hence why I don't see the point this kind of threads.

Lets explore all the cases, debate them, some of us will bring their experience and beliefs to the table and others will bring the fruits of their research, their knowledge (professional or personal) and surely we wont all agree on one conclusion but we will definitely leave knowing more than we did.

But if we turn ufology into a faith based conflict where all that matters is whether you believe or not - what's to gain?



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 10:51 AM
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reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


As a believer I am more open minded than the skeptic. A true skeptic will listen or read an account, ask questions then start the process of elimination. It is the way science works....the rational path to belief.

There are very few true skeptics out here....same is true for believers. Most are simply close minded that resist anything that can crack their particular paradigm.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 10:56 AM
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It just seems to me that the skeptic is absent any reason because they want to remain in a state of perpetual possibility.

There's evidence that has accumulated over the years that we can weigh as to what's most likely and what's less likely. The skeptic wants to avoid weighing the evidence because they want to make these illogical statements about people blindly coming to these conclusions.

Here's some quotes:


"In my mind, there is no question that they're out there. My Career is well established. My texts books are required reading in all the major capitals on planet earth. If you want to become a physist to learn about the unified feild therory-you read my books. Therefore, I'm in a position to say: Yes- Most likely they're out their, perhaps even visted, perhaps on our moon. - ABC News Quote --
-- Professor Michio Kaku Author of Theoretical Physics UNY

"I've been convinced for a long time that the flying saucers are real and interplanetary. Another words we are being watched by beings from outer space."
--Albert M. Chop, deputy public relations director, National Aeronautics and Space Administration,(NASA) and former United States Air Force spokesman for Project Blue Book.

"When the long awaited solution to the UFO problem comes, I believe that it will prove to be not merely the next small step in the march of science, but a mighty and totally unexpected quantum leap." "We had a job to do, whether right or wrong, to keep the public from getting excited"
--Dr.J Allen Hynek, Director US Air Force´s project Blue Book as a scientific consultant, astronomer, investigator and analysis.

"Given the millions of billions of Earth-like planets, life elsewhere in the Universe without a doubt, does exist. In the vastness of the Universe we are not alone."
--The Bible According to Albert Einstein

"It is my thesis that flying saucers are real and that they are space ships from another solar system.There is no doubt in my mind that these objects are interplanetary craft of some sort. I and my colleagues are confident that they do not originate in our solar system." --Dr. Herman Oberth (The father of modern rockerty)

"I am completely convinced that UFOs have an out-of-world basis." --Dr. Walther Riedel (Once chief designer and research director at the German rocket center in Peenemunde)

I believe, and I scientifically am certain, that there are endless other living forms out there, including intelligent sentient beings. I do know that there are entire universes of living forms out there.
--Dr.Story Musgrave NASA scientist-astronaut

"I believe that these extraterrestrial vehicles and their crews are visiting this planet from other planets which obviously are a little more technically advanced than we are here on Earth." --Colonel L. Gordon Cooper (Mercury 9, Gemini-5 Astronaut)

"Mission control, We have a UFO pacing our position, request instructions!"
-- Astronaut Cady Coleman NASAtransmission shuttle mission STS-73

"I've been asked about UFO's and I've said publicly I thought they were somebody else, some other civilization."
--Commander Eugene Cernan, Commanded the Apollo 17 Mission. (LA TIMES, 1973)

We have contact with alien cultures."
--Astronaut Dr. Brian O'leary

"In my official status, I cannot comment on ET contact. However, personally, I can assure you, we are not alone!
--Charles J. Camarda (Ph.D.) NASA Astronaut


churchofcriticalthinking.org...

This is how you know most UFO skeptics are not interested in evidence. They are just interested in saying,"it could be anything" or "that doesn't prove anything."

Most of them want to act as if there's no evidence and that there's no good research out there. They do this because they want to remain in a state of perpetual possibility.

Here's some abduction cases to examine.

1961 Betty and Barney Hill Abduction
1967 The Betty Andreasson Abduction
1967 Abduction of Herbert Schirmer
1968 The Buff Ledge Camp Abduction
1969 The Antonio da Silva Abduction
1973 The Doraty Abduction, Houston, Texas
1973 Pascagoula, Mississippi Abduction (Parker, Hickson)
1974 Hunter Abducted in Wyoming
1975 The Abduction of Sergeant Charles L. Moody
1975 The Travis Walton Abduction
1976 The Stanford, Kentucky Abductions
1976 The Allagash Abductions
1978 The Cullen Abduction
1978 The Dechmont Woods Abduction
1978 The Abduction of Jan Wolski
1980's Lost Time/Abduction in New York
1980 The Alan Godfrey Abduction
1983 The Copely Woods Encounter
1983 The Abduction of Alfred Burtoo
1985 Abduction of Wladyslaw S.
1985 Abduction of Whitley Strieber
1987 Abduction on North Canol Road, Canada
1987 Hudson Valley Abduction
1987 The Christa Tilton Story
1987 The Ilkley Moor Alien
1987 The Jason Andews Abduction
1988 Abduction of Bonnie Jean Hamilton
1988 DNA Sample From Khoury Abduction
1989 Linda Cortile-Napolitano Abduction
1990 Westchester, N. Y. Abduction
1992 The A-70 Abduction
1994 Abduction in Killeen, Texas
1997 Abduction in Wales
1997 Abduction in Australia, (Rylance-Heller)
1999 Carlyle Lake Abduction
2001 Abduction in Michigan
2003-Abduction in Florida
2004 Francis Family Abduction
2005 Man Abducted in Florida
2005 Clayton & Donna Lee Abduction

www.ufocasebook.com...

My point is, there's a lot of evidence that has accumulated over the years that can be weighed as to what's most likely and what's less likely.

If it was left up to the skeptic the evidence would never be weighed and we would remain in a state of perpetual possibility.






[edit on 19-10-2009 by Matrix Rising]



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 11:01 AM
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I agree with the above poster. You must eliminate all the possibilities to come to the truth. I personally believe in extraterrestrials. But people who just downright dismiss or accept something as the proof of the existence of extraterrestrials (or anything for that matter) are just plain stupid. You MUST go through the evidence before coming to a conclusion.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


still not given us any evidence. What do you have an alien body? a piece of ET spaceship? A clear photo with sufficient providence?

Where is the evidence?

[edit on 19-10-2009 by yeti101]



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by yeti101
reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


still not given us any evidence. What do you have an alien body? a piece of ET spaceship? A clear photo with sufficient providence?

Where is the evidence?



You skeptics are proving my point beautifully.

In the mind of the skeptic, there's no evidence. They are not interested in evidence and you can list evidence until your blue in the face.

The skeptic is not interested in evidence. They want absolute evidence. This is the excuse for them to never weigh the available evidence.

They want to remain in a constipated state of perpetual possibility because they want to ask these general and illogical questions.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 11:13 AM
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reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


I'll give you the truth but you wont like it. The suggestion we are being visited by ET in spaceships is pure bunk. Ufology is an industry designed to make money from gullible people. But those people are willing participants becuase they desperately want to believe. There are various reasons for this but i wont expand here.

The ufo BS artists have become more sophisticated and more diverse over the last 60 years catering to the needs of the believers. The only problem i have is them trying to force people to accept those crazy beliefs as fact thats where i draw the line.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by yeti101
reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


I'll give you the truth but you wont like it. The suggestion we are being visited by ET in spaceships is pure bunk. Ufology is an industry designed to make money from gullible people. But those people are willing participants becuase they desperately want to believe. There are various reasons for this but i wont expand here.

The ufo BS artists have become more sophisticated and more diverse over the last 60 years catering to the needs of the believers. The only problem i have is them trying to force people to accept those crazy beliefs as fact thats where i draw the line.





Yeti, it's fine with me if this is what you believe.

If it makes you feel comftorable to live in a fantasy world where there's no evidence to support these things then that's fine with me.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm glad you are helping me prove my point though.

Thanks



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by Matrix Rising
It just seems to me that the skeptic is absent any reason because they want to remain in a state of perpetual possibility.


I agree with you that there is the Randi-Bill Nye type that cry out "weather balloon" or "can be recreated with Q-Tips and a flashlight", but there are others that want to investigate and just ask that the investigation be done in such a way as to properly include and exclude assumptions, controls, and variables.

Check me out on the Randi thread. I do not go along with that crowd. In fact, I think they are "anti-Scientific Method" and harmful to true scientific inquiry.


There's evidence that has accumulated over the years that we can weigh as to what's most likely and what's less likely.


I agree that there is a great deal of evidence that something that is not "us" (meaning known human population of Earth) is appearing in our atmosphere. What that something could be is still up for grabs. You mistook me the other day when I stated that we cannot claim it to be extra-terrestrial.

I am stating that we cannot say what it is, anymore than those types of skeptics can claim it is all "explainable". It is unexplainable phenomenon by our current definitions.

What if "they" are from the oceans? What if "they" are from the future? What if they are from earth?


This is how you know most UFO skeptics are not interested in evidence. They are just interested in saying,"it could be anything" or "that doesn't prove anything."


They do love to say that, and when they say that their tone is dripping with condescension and snark. I cringe when Bill Nye is on the telly.

That said, we have lots of evidence, but proving it is "alien life" is not going to be easy. At most you can prove that it is not "human from Earth".


Most of them want to act as if there's no evidence and that there's no good research out there.


This is true. A lot of public skeptics are rather unkind about it, and even rather dumb because they shove SETI at you like a bunch of token beads.


They do this because they want to remain in a state of perpetual possibility.


And what is wrong with staying "open"?


My point is, there's a lot of evidence that has accumulated over the years that can be weighed as to what's most likely and what's less likely.


I agree. We can say it is less likely to be human at this point.


If it was left up to the skeptic the evidence would never be weighed and we would remain in a state of perpetual possibility.


Do you believe it is enough evidence to say that the craft are not from earth, and/or not from the future?



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 11:22 AM
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reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


ive looked into practically every major ufo case. Every single case i find informatiion the ufologists dont tell you. That evidence usually points to a prosaic explanation. Why are ufologists so dishonest? why dont they just present all the evidence instead of just the one that fits their pet theory?

The reason is becuase they have to be dishonest to keep their fantasy stories intact.

[edit on 19-10-2009 by yeti101]



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 11:25 AM
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check this.....







posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 11:28 AM
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reply to post by yeti101
 


By your reasoning all the people that have had some type of sighting or personal experience are being victimized by the Ufologists.

I agree that the UFO field is full of marketeers and even those that foolishly are led around by their noses...but not all.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 11:30 AM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 

**double post**



[edit on 19-10-2009 by yeti101]



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