Religious hate-mongering

Okay, I am only posting this because I have grown aggravated by the religious hate mongering that I seem to stumble upon on a daily basis. Everybody seems to blame religion for the atrocities of man and I can't help but think that is ridiculous. Here is a rebuttal of mine in regards to a blog I happened to read.

Why Religion is NOT Wrong PT2
Statement1:
"For those who have devoted themselves to define and find truth, it is obvious that faith and religion are the greatest enemies to reality as we know it. As one of the greatest writers in history once wrote 'the noblest of occupations is to search for truth.' = Ingersoll. The relentless assault often starts at a young age, it is the vicious cycle of religious indoctrination. From generation to generation, parents obliviously brainwash their children and in some ways mentally abuse them, i.e., 'believe or burn for eternity.' Parents condition children on a mass scale (billions on a daily basis) and douse their perceptions unwillingly in deceit. Often they are taught to deny the most important scientific facts, it is not a coincidence that just about every evolution denier is religious and or knows next to nothing about the subject."

Rebuttal1:
I say with 100% confidence that religion and faith are NOT the greatest enemies to reality. The "greatest enemy" is one's own perception. Yes, Ingersoll was a great mind, but yet, what IS spirituality at its' core? The search for truth? I dare say YES. The problem here is as I state, ones own perception. You seem to not grasp the difference in 'spirituality' and 'religion'. Religion can sometimes be used in a malicious indoctrination type method, I agree. Yet, what is religion verse spirituality? What was Jesus? Buddha? All the great "spiritual" thinkers never claimed a "religion". It's more-so philosophy than anything. Religion is man-made for man-goals. "Burn for eternity" i.e. listen to me, do as I say, grant me the power I want. That's a man saying that, and that's what you fail to comprehend. As for evolution-deniers, I'd like to see facts please. I believe in evolution, yet I also believe in divine creation. So where does your statement "just about every" stake its basis?

Statement2:
By subjective religious ideals being implanted into innocent minds, children are being raped of their freedom of choice. When it comes to the big questions in life, how did we get here, why are we here, etc, often people who have been indoctrinated will never think to question why because they already "know" or have a deeply embedded bias and are likely to be duped into seeing things for how they truly aren't. In contrast, we have science which helps us see things for how they truly are as we know it today, no matter how unpleasant the outcome may seem.

Rebuttal2:
Now, I also would like proof for these claims. How many children do you personally know have been forced to believe in something and then turned into a simple-minded one-eyed religious follower? Honestly, I know none. To be perfectly frank with you, the ones that are INDOCTRINATED turn out to be athiests in most cases. They're not being raped of freedom of choice, they're lives are simply a mimicry of their parents' lives which is quite normal in todays society. As for the "big questions", you too fall into the category you mention. You seem to have a deeply embedded bias AGAINST religion and seem to "KNOW" that science proves everything. When in fact, science needs just as much "faith" in the fore-founders as does "religion". Have you personally tested gravity as a UNIVERSAL law? Not likely. You simply have the 'faith' it requires to believe that those that came before you in the scientific fields were correct.

Statement3:
There are those who claim that "religion is not wrong, people are" while this makes sense to some, a closer look reveals a fatal flaw in the argument. Take the famous line "guns do not kill people, people do" it is analogous with the former claim but unlike a gun, religious thoughts are 100% mental and directly responsible for ones actions considering all human actions are derived from the brain.

[continued]

edit: double post

[edit on 17-10-2009 by Agree2Disagree]

Rebuttal3:
Yes there are those people. I am one of them. Let me back my statement. People in general aren't "wrong", they just have a misunderstanding. While religious thoughts MAY be "mental", that doesn't mean they are directly responsible for ones actions. There are MANY things that play a part in ones own actions. In fact, your personal INTOLERANCE of religion, clearly played a part in the writing of your blog. So, with that being said, are you arguing with yourself here or what? Or was it more likely that 'emotions' among other things played a part in that blog? It is clear to those that have open eyes that religious thoughts are not "100%" directly responsible for ones actions. You may want to rephrase that bold statement. Perhaps, PERHAPS, they may have an underlying role in certain instances, but what you have said has crossed a line that is irreversible. You demonstrate 'misunderstanding' well.

Statement4:
On a daily basis religion is used as a catalyst for horrific acts, whether it is random events around the globe in the dialy news or in particular the Middle East conflict over the holy land and religious ideals. Millions of women are suffering because of holy books like the Quran which promote their inhumane treatment. And religion is often the cause for the segregation of our species, only certain sects of faith are allowed in certain places in the Middle East. All to often religious faiths are quick to point out that opposing faiths are wrong and their followers will suffer for all of eternity. Religions plague their hosts with gult, we are told that we are all sinners. We are given lists of manmade morals that we must follow or feel guilty about.

Rebuttal4:
My question to that is - is religion used as a catalyst, or a scapegoat? I tend to think the latter. The Middle East in particular is a difficult place to speak about. They have a radical tendency and cannot justifiably be defended in their stances IMHO. Perhaps we could take a look at buddhist monks instead? Has a buddhist monk ever condemned anyone to suffer in eternity? Has a buddhist monk ever called you a sinner? Yet, buddhism is what you consider "religion" is it not? Your biased opinions have clearly came from a place of disappointment or dissatisfaction with MANreligions and not DIVINEspirituality. There's a difference you know... Perhaps an analogy is in need. Religion is to Politics as Spirituality is to Self-sustainment.

Statement5:
What has our past taught us? Jihadists, crusaders, inquisitors, martyrs, and many subsets that mimic these despicable themes. Today we have Muslims flying planes into buildings and blowing themselves up in crowded areas so they can enter an enternal paradise. We have Christians who claim to be worshipping the only true god and everyone else on this planet (4 out of the 6 billion people alive) will burn for eternity. This virus of faith seeps into our politics as well and affects our daily lives i.e., gay marriage, abortion, blue laws, and the word God being added to U.S. currency in the 1950's, so much for the separation of church and state.

Rebuttal5:

To the Muslims again, I cannot fully back their stances because I personally have limited knowledge of the Quran and muslim religion. As for the planes, again, fanatics. I believe the phrase goes "don't judge a book by it's cover". Or more fitfully, "don't judge a group by it's minority". Are all african-americans criminals? Are all 45 year old white males pedophiles? Are all women that live in a trailer, trailer park heroin queens? As for the christians, I doubt any would condemn you to hell out of hatred. Most would only mention the so-called place of hell in hopes that you may sway your views. It's out of love, and if you refuse, I am quite sure they won't respond aggresively. Is caring for another living individual wrong? They aren't FORCING anything down ANYBODYS throat, simply giving the option and supplying information. As for the statement about religion and politics, I don't even really want to discuss it seeing as how you clearly don't have the facts. All I really have to say is

excerptThe Congress passed the Act of April 22, 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin...

Statement6:
It is likely that religion causes more harm than good on this planet and if that somehow is not the case, one cannot deny that religion comes at a great price and all of the religious negativity that floods humanity is utterly unnecessary. What about religious tolerance and all the good-hearted moderates, what about all those who have faithful thinking or support it? "Religious moderates are, in large part, responsible for the religious conflict in our world, because their beliefs provide the context in which scriptural literalism and religious violence can never be adequately opposed...We must find our way to a time when faith, without evidence, disgraces anyone who would claim it" - Sam Harris. Today the world fears a self fulfilled prophecy from the book of Revelations. We have thousands of Jihadists chanting 'death to America!' these confused apes would see a silver lining in a skyline-altering mushroom cloud. They say it is their religious duty to acquire nuclear arms. They say, "I'm fighting so I can die a martyr and go to heaven to meet God." - Bin Laden.

[continued]

edit: link to excerpt

[edit on 17-10-2009 by Agree2Disagree]

Rebuttal6:
Actually, ALL the negativity that floods humanity PERIOD is utterly unnecessary. There's no need to limit it to religion. As I've stated previously, science is just as faith based as religion. You may think my views of a "creator" are ridiculous. Yet, do you really understand my views? Let me elaborate just so you can know a little. My Creator, is energy. Yes, energy. Science has proven it exists. Yet, where does it come from? Everything has a source so they say. Energy is that source. Energy is that creator. It is the IAM. My creator isn't a man figure in the clouds. My creator is known as The Father, because He is "THE FATHER" of EVERYTHING. This universe is His divine DNA. We live in Him, through Him, because of Him. You lift a rock and you find Him. Were we made in His image? Definately. One must only take a look at human functionality to see it all relies on divinity, or in this case, energy. He is universal law. Now, does my divine creator exist or not? You tell me Mr. Science.


So, what are your opinions ATS? Agree or disagree? Or.....ironically.....both?

edit: link to original post

[edit on 17-10-2009 by Agree2Disagree]

So to sum up religion is not the reason people commit horrifc acts just the scape goat?

rebutal 1 answer:

No real oppasition to this.

Rebutal 2 answer:

you want proof of children being forced to beleive theres plenty out there look at any religion and kids are taken to church from day one they are brought up in that religion and not given a choice if they want to go or not.

Personally I think no child should be exposed to religion until they are old enough to understand what it is but mostly by that time its to late.

How about killing people who leave a certian religion plenty of cases of that happening all over the world right now.

Rebutal 3 answer

So metally I think of harming another I turn that into action but that mental thought had no bearing on my action?. is the intolorance not a mental action?

Rebutal 4 answer

Its both no real point in arguing there and how can our opionions be biased if they are formed by proof?

Rebutal 5 answer

If someone is expression an opionion to me about there religion is fine by me just don't expect me to agree in fear of going to hell.

Rebutal 6 answer

I agree there no need to limit the negativity to religion but seeing as the vast majority of people on the planet as religious its stupid to ignore it, no I dont understand your views no one really could unless they shared them. Only you can decide if your creator exsists or not as with all belief structures no amount of proof that shows you are wrong would be accepted by you as you already have a belief

I don't get it that you talk about peoples perception then show your own in the whole we live through him part of the last rebuttal.

The title of your thread makes it out as if religious hate mongering is bad. If a religion any of them is killing people because they don't beleive then hate mongering is perfectly justifiable.

Should we stand aside and just say ohh its there religion to kill, torture and abuse so there perspective on life is different from ours lets just leave them be?

Thats like saying "that guys perception on life is to beat his wife so lets leave him to it" if we where bashing wife beaters all the time would you post a thread saying "wife beating hate-mongering"


Personaly I think people should be able to beleive what they like but as soon as they try to force it on other human beings there should be war.

Originally posted by jpmail

Rebutal 2 answer:

you want proof of children being forced to beleive theres plenty out there look at any religion and kids are taken to church from day one they are brought up in that religion and not given a choice if they want to go or not.

Personally I think no child should be exposed to religion until they are old enough to understand what it is but mostly by that time its to late.

How about killing people who leave a certian religion plenty of cases of that happening all over the world right now.

Well, being exposed and being indoctrinated are two entirely different things from my perspective. Simply taking them is opening their eyes to new and different things. It's not forcing them into submission. I agree that there needs to be atleast an age limit set because young children are so fragile and easily molded. As for the killings, when taken in relation to all other matters that can and do cause death, religion is but a small "catalyst", if you even want to call it that.

Rebutal 3 answer

So metally I think of harming another I turn that into action but that mental thought had no bearing on my action?. is the intolorance not a mental action?

What I am saying is that all mental thoughts turn to action. To say that religion is the only mental thought that can end in violent action is ignorant. "I think therefore I am." and what is "am"? Indeed, it's a verb and is the act of doing or being....i.e. the 'action' we speak of.

Rebutal 4 answer

Its both no real point in arguing there and how can our opionions be biased if they are formed by proof?

But what can really be "proven" in our scope of reality? To a degree, even existence requires faith, because I'm not even sure if this life I'm living isn't robotic...preplanned...DESIGNED....how do we "prove" that we have choices?

Rebutal 5 answer

If someone is expression an opionion to me about there religion is fine by me just don't expect me to agree in fear of going to hell.

I agree. The fear of hell is the church's idea of control and general populace submission. To be quite frank, why would any DIVINE CREATOR want His/Her/Its creations to be afraid of Him/Her/It? I really see no valid answer.

Rebutal 6 answer

I agree there no need to limit the negativity to religion but seeing as the vast majority of people on the planet as religious its stupid to ignore it, no I dont understand your views no one really could unless they shared them. Only you can decide if your creator exsists or not as with all belief structures no amount of proof that shows you are wrong would be accepted by you as you already have a belief
I don't get it that you talk about peoples perception then show your own in the whole we live through him part of the last rebuttal.
The title of your thread makes it out as if religious hate mongering is bad. If a religion any of them is killing people because they don't beleive then hate mongering is perfectly justifiable.
Should we stand aside and just say ohh its there religion to kill, torture and abuse so there perspective on life is different from ours lets just leave them be?
Thats like saying "that guys perception on life is to beat his wife so lets leave him to it" if we where bashing wife beaters all the time would you post a thread saying "wife beating hate-mongering"
Personaly I think people should be able to beleive what they like but as soon as they try to force it on other human beings there should be war.

Actually, if you could show me VERIFIABLE proof that my creator doesn't exist, I'm sure I would change my mind. As for perception, exactly my point. It's not necessarily a bad thing. It's simply the intolerance of the differing perspectives that diversifies and segragates people. Not religion perse'.

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree

Well, being exposed and being indoctrinated are two entirely different things from my perspective. Simply taking them is opening their eyes to new and different things. It's not forcing them into submission. I agree that there needs to be atleast an age limit set because young children are so fragile and easily molded. As for the killings, when taken in relation to all other matters that can and do cause death, religion is but a small "catalyst", if you even want to call it that.

Ah, but taking a child to one religions place of worship a week at that age will pretty much bang it into there heads like it or not.

It's not like you are going to take your child to a Mosque, a Church, a Buddhist Temple etc etc once every week so they have a choice..

Even then the child will most likely choose the one with the 'coolest ***' something or other..

Is it wrong for an athiest who lives a good life and harms no others to be told he will go to hell for his disbelief?

What about the atheist who doesn't believe in Allah yet has to confront the angry muslims who wish to behead those who don't wish to be converted?

What about the atheist who has to watch muslims and christians fight over their peices of paper every god damn day just to prove something to themselves and who has the better religion ner ner ner ner...

Sod religion i say.... sod it all with big sodding bells on.

Organised religion and spirituality are two completely different things altogether.


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by Lister87

Ah, but taking a child to one religions place of worship a week at that age will pretty much bang it into there heads like it or not.

It's not like you are going to take your child to a Mosque, a Church, a Buddhist Temple etc etc once every week so they have a choice..

Even then the child will most likely choose the one with the 'coolest ***' something or other..

Have you ever seen what young children do at church? More often than not they're told the young christian-kids storys that have already been crammed into their heads by their parents.

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Is it wrong for an athiest who lives a good life and harms no others to be told he will go to hell for his disbelief?

What about the atheist who doesn't believe in Allah yet has to confront the angry muslims who wish to behead those who don't wish to be converted?

What about the atheist who has to watch muslims and christians fight over their peices of paper every god damn day just to prove something to themselves and who has the better religion ner ner ner ner...

Sod religion i say.... sod it all with big sodding bells on.

Yes it is wrong. But what is happening in these instances are done by people with radical ideals about religion and/or spirituality.

Is it wrong for an x-tian who lives a good life, harms none, and doesn't force his religion on anybody to be told he/she is an idiot for believing? You tell me. Two pages of the same story.

Religious hate-mongering???? I thought that was the purpose of the Conspiracy in Religion board.
Come on, when is the last time there was an actual conspiracy posted in this board that was outside the davinci code babble? Most threads here could all be summed up into OMG look at what [athiest/religious group] is doing isnt that wrong???? Or This is why you are wrong for believing in what you believe in.
In my opinion CiR should be moved to BTS and any conspiracy in religion would fall under general conspiracy. Nothing of value would be lost.

I tried to get through that, really, but then I got to "rebuttal 2" where you try the "science faith based/science is a religion" thing and couldn't go on. When people do that, all it says to me is: "I know you are, but what am I!"

I find there's two kinds of apologists; those who attempt to legitimize religion up to the level of science, and, those who attempt to dumb down science to the level of faith and religion.

You fall into the second category.

unfortunately, most people require someplace to dump responsibility and all that comes with it.

instead of learning the life lesson of a mistake/wrong decision, people are allowed to wash themselves clean from any wrongdoing/blame.

after all, if the devil made me do it how can jesus blame me. yup, that sounds very "official." i can easily see it making up the majority of some religious tome.

cheers,

AA


PS- remember, satan loves you!

reply to post by ZombieOctopus


So, I take it from this that I'm not up-to-date and abiogenesis has been proven in a scientific lab? Or does abiogenesis not need to be proven, is it moreso FAITH-based?