Originally posted by Axial Leader
Of course, nobody will actually arrest you and force you into this. But you won't be able to get public health insurance without it. (But you will still have to pay for it, anyway.)

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

If this system comes into the US.. then maybe your leaders are trying to finish you off.

Why not try and follow the systems of pretty much EVERY OTHER DEVELOPED, WEALTHY COUNTRY.. instead of coming up with conspiracies that don't even make sense.

Mandatory tests for no reason would be a waste of money and an infringement on basic human rights.. Why do them? It doesn't make sense..

If Socialism IS Communism, then Conservatives ARE Fascists.
Happy with that? Can't have it both ways.
Turn off Fox News, and think for yourself, you Fascist, you....
What? You're not a Fascist? But your logic means you are!

By the way, here's the list of longest living nations. See if you can (a) spot the "Communist" countries, and (b) spot those countries with universal healthcare.
Happy with 35th? Think how much money you spend to keep this status quo.
Think how much money you spend on healthcare to come 35th.

Top 20 Countries

1Japan
2Hong Kong
3 Iceland
4Switzerland
5Australia
6 Spain
7Sweden
8Israel
9 Macau
10France (metropolitan)
11Canada
12 Italy
13 New Zealand
14 Norway
15 Singapore
16Austria
17 Netherlands
18 Martinique ( France)
19 Greece
20 Belgium


The United States ranks 35 in the world.

Maybe you could be a chart together showing the net PROFIT from the American health insurance companies.
It would surprise you.
All that money going into the pockets of a few, and still you're expected to be outlived by the people in 34 nations.

Originally posted by Dermo

Originally posted by Axial Leader
Of course, nobody will actually arrest you and force you into this. But you won't be able to get public health insurance without it. (But you will still have to pay for it, anyway.)

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It doesn't make sense..

I don't think that what I am suggesting is worthy of ridicule, but that is just me.

The reason it makes sense to me is that the public option would be influenced heavily by private industry, would attempt to close it down by making it unbearably miserable at every opportunity.

I bet you are not a US citizen. I say that, because you don't seem to realize how incredibly competitive things are here in the USA. Capitalism is king here -- ruthlessness is heavily rewarded. Believe me, I wish it wasn't that way, but Capitalism is pretty much unchecked here.

If you don't think I am correct with this last statement, please see all the previous posts. The USA is insanely Capitalistic, and I don't think that is something which can be changed in the near future.

Originally posted by ziggystar60

Originally posted by I_am_Spartacus

Yeah real great if you don't care about giving up rights. You can lose your gun rights, hunting rights, eating rights, driving rights, power rights,light bulb rights etc, etc, etc. all for a little "security".

Yes, that's right, nobody in Norway goes hunting, we never eat anything because we have no right to, there are no cars on the roads because we have no driving rights, we have no electricity and especially NO light bulbs in our houses!

Thank you, fellow member, for giving me the biggest laugh I have had here at ATS in a LONG time! Usually I only get depressed when I read political threads, but you put a VERY big smile on my face today.

Have a hug for it.

believe me, the vast majority of people here in america are not like this guy...norway is so much more "adult" overall about how government should serve the people, rather than just serving the wealthy.

Originally posted by Axial Leader
say that, because you don't seem to realize how incredibly competitive things are here in the USA. Capitalism is king here -- ruthlessness is heavily rewarded.

May I present the following testament....



I found it on the net, so you know it has to be true, eh?

Capitalism is king in the USA. But strangely the logic that Socialism and Communism are the same thing suspends here, because that logic makes Capitalism the same as Fascism, and nobody will admit that. I'm not saying it is, just that the logic applies evenly.

The current health care system in the USA is....A PROFIT MAKING SCHEME FOR THE INSURANCE COMPANIES...sorry. Lost my composure.
It's not about wellness. It's about money.
You pay, they profit.

There's also flawed logic in the 'loss of rights' rant.
Do Americans have the same rights as they did ten years ago.
No. Not even close.
Why not?

Obama? Nope.
DHS? Getting warmer.

There's a lot wrong in the USA, and rather than getting behind the government (either side) and helping to fix these problems, everyone just whines about what Fox news tells them to whine about. Nobody wants to change anything because that would mean putting in some effort and doing things that benefit.....gasp....other people!!!!!! The horror.

Amazing that everyone in the USA seems to have a very strong opinion on the way other countries work, but so few of them have ever actually experienced it first hand or have any real knowledge of them.

Originally posted by Badgered1
If Socialism IS Communism, then Conservatives ARE Fascists.
Happy with that? Can't have it both ways.
Turn off Fox News, and think for yourself, you Fascist, you....
What? You're not a Fascist? But your logic means you are!

Hmmm.... I think you have me mixed up with conservatives. I am a Constitutionalist. I might have a slight leaning one way over another, but I am primarily a true believer in the US Constitution. I believe Thomas Jefferson represents what this country should be, and that both parties are failing to protect everyone's constitutional rights.

When I look at Obamacare and its intent, I see an absolute violation in the Thomas Jefferson America that I embrace.

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government. "

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country. "

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

"Liberty is to the collective body, what health is to every individual body. Without health no pleasure can be tasted by man; without liberty, no happiness can be enjoyed by society."

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

I think many of my fellow Americans need a re-education in American and World History.

Everything quoted above is from Thomas Jefferson. Obamacare violates our constitutional freedoms and rights. Our government has been taken over by socialist communists, and they want to control everything we hold precious.

You are for freedom, or you are not for freedom. There is no in-between.

Its either liberty or death.

[edit on 16-10-2009 by Pathos]

Do you even know the difference between Communism and Socialism?

Your reasoning is not valid. Health care reform is neither Communism, nor Socialism, nor fascism, nor anything else other than an attempt to ensure that everyone has access to decent health care. Health care should be a right, not a privilege. It should be available to everyone, not just the wealthy and the abject poor.

See, the wealthy can afford doctors or insurance. The very poor get free health care, courtesy of the State. It is only the working poor, or the lower middle class, who get gypped. They work, pay taxes, and all that, but don't have money for insurance or doctors.

Everyone in the world should have food, lean water, shelter, clothes, and health care. That means some of the "haves" are going to have to share.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Back to the issue, please...and I simply have to laff at the rational that the Norwegian lifestyle represents a trade-off for those rights that Americans hold so dear. Take a poll...aside from the weather...see who wants to swap?

I'm an American and would swap right now. Unfortunately, 1/2 of this country has become severely brainwashed. It's sad, really.

Socialism has its place in America. We have public schools. Why? The founding fathers decided that an education was necessary to preserve democracy. We have public roads. Why? The Congress decided we needed roads for the defense of the nation. Did you really think that the interstate system was for your family vacation? We have many public jobs, like police and firemen. Why? Because we can't seem to keep the costs of services down and the consistency of services up without long term employees who have corporate knowledge of what did and did not work in the past so we don't repeat the same mistakes.

How does socialized medicine fit in? Do we need democracy, defense of the nation, or long term knowledge? Maybe.

I think it is about helping our poorer brothers and sisters to rise up. It is about giving others a fighting chance to do well. It is about providing help and care to the sick. It's a good thing to do.

Sure, its great to have money. Many do. You know it can be because of talent and education, or it can be because of luck. You guessed something right. Well, maybe the next family didn't guess so well. Should they be treated like second class citizens when it comes to their health?

Frankly, I think a public health system is long overdue. I speak as a Republican, too. We need to elevate the family, protect the ill, provide for the disabled, and save our families from medical bankruptcy.

It's funny how the same people who fight against public medical support will stand and point a finger at the homeless. Maybe they are homeless because they have a medical condition, mental condition, or some other problem. Solve the problem, you have better social functioning.

Bottom line, America will be a healthier nation if it takes care of the health of its citizens. I think the costs of health insurance are way out of line. My rates went up 33% recently. I sent a complaint letter to the state department that oversees insurance companies. They said that as long as they gave me 30 days notice, it was ok. It's not ok. Especially now, when recession is a big problem.

I don't think I need to pay that much for a doctor that doesn't make house visits, an industry that treats symptoms more than causes, and a technologically overburdened hospital system.

Drugs...the cost .... don't get me started!

Properly overseen government programs have made a big positive difference. However, in this country, most citizens don't oversee their government.



[edit on 17-10-2009 by Jim Scott]

Originally posted by TSOM87
IMO i like the idea of working hard and paying for the best healthcare that i can find. Rather than working hard and getting the same service as someone who dose nothing. In the UK you have the NHS everybody gets free health care even if you don't work and even if you don't want to work. Communism Socialism, i don't care. All i know is that i don't like it!

Tsom87

While this idea is true for 80% or even 99% of goods and services, you can't add healthcare.
The thing about healthcare is that unless you are a hypochondriac you want to recieve *AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE*
Because you need to be ill to recieve it, and being ill isn't fun.
Thats why most folks tend to agree that an insurance is the right way to go.
Lets look at some other insurances:
Fire: You risk it if you have a house
Health: You risk it if you have a body.

See? another thing distinct to healthcare. 100% of the population are at risk to need it some time in their life.

Thats why having everybody pay so everybody has as much as possible works here. Everybody in their right mind will not want to recieve it! Or are you imagining folks getting bypass operations and chemo therapy because "Hey, it's free/I am healthy, but i want to get what i payed for" ?

Originally posted by Jim Scott
Socialism has its place in America. We have public schools. Why? The founding fathers decided that an education was necessary to preserve democracy. We have public roads. Why? The Congress decided we needed roads for the defense of the nation. Did you really think that the interstate system was for your family vacation? We have many public jobs, like police and firemen. Why? Because we can't seem to keep the costs of services down and the consistency of services up without long term employees who have corporate knowledge of what did and did not work in the past so we don't repeat the same mistakes.

Whilst much of the above is laudable and things I'd want to see in every country in the world, and whilst there's various competing models of socialism - just like there is in capitalism - I'm not sure that these things are actually 'socialist' in any real definition I recognise.

For example, the fact you have roads isn't anything to do with your Congress. You have planned and specifically constructed roads because it's a practical and generally efficient way of travelling. Nothing to do Congress or 'socialism'. Asking 'what did the Romans ever do for us' is a running joke in British history and one of the responses is that they gave us 'roads' in the modern sense rather than 'tracks'. Whilst the Romans obviously used them for defensive reasons, the idea that this is somehow 'socialist' is, frankly, bizarre. Were the Romans socialist? Did they implement 'socialist' policies?

I think part of this comes from this idea that many Americans have that, somehow, 'socialism' specifically equates with 'state', which isn't true at all. What Americans are really talking about when they say 'socialism' in this sense are elements of 'authoritarianism' and 'totalitarianism'. And yes, these things have appeared in structures that are perceived as being 'socialist', but that doesn't make socialism per se authoritarian or totalitarian or having a focus on 'state'. It's a logical fallacy. It's like saying 'I once a saw a couple of fat Americans' and taking it mean that all Americans are fat, which isn't true even if you do get fat Americans.

Over the couple of decades there's been a lot of talk about American cultural imperialism. To be honest, I'm wondering whether all this nonsense spoken about 'socialism' is another aspect of it, where America seeks to define something in itsterms or its understanding and then push it to the rest of the world as the definitive/only understanding of something.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by Merriman Weir]

The best part about this is that there is another thread on ATS which states that socialism and fascism are the same thing. One of the people here who is arguing that socialism and communism are the same was over there arguing that socialism and fascism are the same. They are not all the same.

Originally posted by Axial Leader

Originally posted by I_am_Spartacus
This already exists in places and we are experiencing it first hand here.
I bet 75-85% of those currently on it will no longer qualify for it. Oh, they will let you stay on it if you subject to their humiliating, time consuming, requirements like multiple online surveys appraisals, doctors visits every six months, medications, etc. Its designed to either fit their norm, or more likely, to cause you to give up and go back to their crappy expensive plans, now that the competition is out of the way.

I find this post to be persuasive. (I am not too impressed with the OP, but I think this is an enlightening argument.)

What makes everyone believe this push for public health care won't end up with REQUIRED proctology exams, gynecology exams, forced participation in a system that requires unpleasant and unchecked medical checkups based upon the results of dubious studies that fit some norm but actually fit nobody well? Why not require drug testing for everyone, at the same time forcing people outside the norm to take drugs? Some people could be persuaded to that line of thinking. We see it right now, here at ATS.

Of course, nobody will actually arrest you and force you into this. But you won't be able to get public health insurance without it. (But you will still have to pay for it, anyway.)

Edit: What I outline above seems a basic problem with mixing socialism (cooperation) with capitalism (competition). The most likely outcome: nobody wants to use the public cooperative. Why? Because the capitalists influence the lawmakers to make it that way.

[edit on 16-10-2009 by Axial Leader]

Oh I didn't impress you?, you've ruined my day....



[edit on 18-10-2009 by I_am_Spartacus]

Originally posted by Badgered1
because that logic makes Capitalism the same as Fascism, and nobody will admit that. I'm not saying it is, just that the logic applies evenly.

????????????????????? Uhhhh wow, hmmmm....please do look up some definitions that would fit this analogy and post.

Maybe if you think the current form of capitalism (govitalism) is real capitalism then yes you would be partially right. True Capitalism is the antithesis of Fascism.

Its not communism and its very silly to think so.

Read up on communism.