Israel's Government shows its True Colours

reply to post by bsbray11


I thought being able to identify bias in a news story is an inherent human ability. Obviously not so for everyone.

Please cite your balanced agenda free websites, written by people that you don't know, that you use to inform yourself. Clearly everything you read on the internet is true, whereas op-eds and news stories published by respectable news institutions with many decades of printing history are just what, made up?

EVERYONE has an agenda my friend, everyone is trying to sell you something. When someone sends you an email with pictures of dead Palestinian children it's because they want to invoke a strong emotional response in you. They want you on their side against their enemy. They want you angry. Don't you wonder why? Surely you must know that this is a political conflict and Israel's enemies want you on their side? Please tell me you're not that naive?

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by bsbray11

 

I thought being able to identify bias in a news story is an inherent human ability. Obviously not so for everyone.

No, I think you're just full of it and will keep the argument going at all costs.

Military and intelligence groups don't invest millions of dollars into psychological warfare because it doesn't work. The Nazis did not commandeer German media because there was no good reason to do so. GE does not own a massive stake in major media and also produce weapons for our military because they want people to be SURE we want to go to war with Iraq before they can start making billions/trillions off of it.

You must be so naive to think you are already above psychological manipulation, that I really don't even care to continue this conversation with you. Take care of yourself, my friend. You are why I worry about this country so much. You will never be able to counter the manipulation when you don't even want to acknowledge that it exists in the first place. I am fine agreeing to disagree with you. Like I said, take care.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by bigyin

 

Colonel Richard Kemp addresses the UNHRC on behalf of UN Watch:

So either he's lying, or he doesn't know what he's talking about, OR this whole thing is a sham and a political attack against Israel from it's enemies.

Interested to hear which you think is the case.

I've watched the video a couple of times and I don't hear where this guy knows any of this stuff.

Was he in Gaza at the time of the conflict or was he even in Israel at the time ?

He tells us lots of places he has been and worked but that region is not in his list.

For that reason I think he is saying something that somebody else has told him to say.

Why he would do that I don't know.

This one line in Wiki about him makes me suspicious:

Kemp has been involved with a number of Israeli organizations in relation to the December 2008 - January 2009 Gaza War.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by bigyin]

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by bsbray11

 

Then I can cross-check that with, say, BBC news or JPost and form my own opinion.

Aha, haha, hahahahaha!

I really hope you are joking, at least about Jpost...

reply to post by bsbray11


Since you have accused me of ignorance, I will continue to press my point and continue to ask you to cite your sources of information WRT the Middle East conflict.

I am arguing that traditional news sources, while obviously reflecting the inherent bias of the author or editor, are the most reliable indication of world and national affairs.

I also believe that it is important to keep an open mind when reading from any source, as everyone that wants to tell you a story often has their own agenda.

You are arguing that every news paper (even in Western countries, like the US, UK and yes Israel, where the media is fiercely and proudly independent) is government controlled and censored, which makes them incredible, and that the only reliable way to find information is on the internet and from non-traditional sources.

If that is the case then please cite some of your sources for your information on the Arab-Israel conflict, which I assume are balanced and give both sides of the argument. I've shown you mine, now show me yours (as it were!), then we can agree to disagree and let readers make their own minds up.

reply to post by SkurkNilsen


In relation to the Middle East I go to the BBC / Times / Guardian / Telegraph for the outside Israel view, then JPost / Haaretz for the inside Israeli view, then I make my own mind up and do my own research.

It's called free thinking, as opposed to conformity.

You should give it a try some time

reply to post by bigyin


You seem to consider yourself quite well qualified to slander and attack the IDF at every opportunity, but I presume you were not in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, so why does Colonel Kemp have to have been in Gaza in order to give his opinion on the IDF's conduct?

He has spent a great deal of time in joint exercises with the IDF, he knows the command structure and he knows the ethical standards which they are trained to, which in my view makes his opinion on their conduct rather more valuable than someone who "read it on the internet".

reply to post by mattpryor


You are wasting your time,breath and energy on these people,I would
suggest moving on.

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by mattpryor

 

You are wasting your time,breath and energy on these people,I would
suggest moving on.

Really? I think with you its the opposite way around. You have not replied to many of my questions? You have not commented on the fact that the Israeli Military used white phosphorous on innocent civilians. You are the waste of breathe in this thread. At least Matt can have a intellectual debate! You on the other hand... your lack of intelligence and logic is astounding! I question your agenda on threads like this. I question a lot of things about you actually!


Edit to add: I suggest you move along for the sake of the thread and intelligence in general!


[edit on 23-10-2009 by kcfusion]

reply to post by kcfusion


You are not listening to anything unless it agrees with your concept of the
truth.
All nations use any form of weapons they choose to use on their enemies.
1.Gasses
2.Atomic bombs
3.Biological
4.Food
You are focusing only on Israel and no other nation,when ALL are guilty.
I do have a high IQ and I don't have to be logical,I'm a woman!

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by kcfusion

 

You are not listening to anything unless it agrees with your concept of the
truth.
All nations use any form of weapons they choose to use on their enemies.
1.Gasses
2.Atomic bombs
3.Biological
4.Food
You are focusing only on Israel and no other nation,when ALL are guilty.
I do have a high IQ and I don't have to be logical,I'm a woman!

Yes each have had a part to play! Yes I have been listening and accepting there is two sides to a story! However this does not and can not make it excuseable to use these weapons. This thread highlights the Israeli governments atrocities during the war. These things did happen. They are inexcuseable are they not???

If your IQ is high maybe its your lack of knowledge on the subject matter or maybe its because your emotionally attached to the subject that you can not see that at the end of the day whatever the reasons, war crimes cannot be allowed to be committed. Inhumanity against humanity cannot be tolerated!

Ok maybe you don't have to be logical because your a woman But statements like this one you made are on a different level of intelligence altogether!

"Sorry again,God gave Israel that land,they lost it and now they have it
back again.Nice try,better luck next time."

reply to post by kcfusion


I am a christian who supports Israel.There isn't anything that can be done
to change how governments and people treat each other.We don't have the means to bring these changes on our own.All we can do is bicker about
them on a internet forum.

We can't trust the news media,you tube...So,where do you suggest we get
our information from,maybe a magic8ball?

Originally posted by kcfusion

This thread highlights the Israeli governments atrocities during the war. These things did happen.

That's not quite what this thread was about, I seem to remember it being about the Israeli government's concerns about the peace process as a result of the UNHRC's political attack.

Maybe we could get back on that, because there's lots of angles here which we haven't discussed and which merit further debate.

For instance, did you notice that Russia and China voted in favour of referring the matter to the security council? This gives them a huge bargaining chip against the US.

There is a big power struggle going on here. America's world dominance is being challenged. Beware of tunnel vision when it comes to Israel (I know the red mist descends), the big picture is much more interesting.

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by bigyin

 

You seem to consider yourself quite well qualified to slander and attack the IDF at every opportunity, but I presume you were not in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, so why does Colonel Kemp have to have been in Gaza in order to give his opinion on the IDF's conduct?

He has spent a great deal of time in joint exercises with the IDF, he knows the command structure and he knows the ethical standards which they are trained to, which in my view makes his opinion on their conduct rather more valuable than someone who "read it on the internet".

I didn't read it on the internet .. I saw it on TV just like everyone else.

I didnt see 2 million leaflets.

I listened to doctors and UN workers on TV from within Gaza telling us what was going on.

I prefer that evidence to a paid mouthpiece of the IDF.

But like a lot of things that are obvious to the outsider the Israelis continue to deny what we all saw with our own eyes.

Doesn't bother me if you wish to live in lala land. Its only yourself that your fooling.

Originally posted by mattpryor


For instance, did you notice that Russia and China voted in favour of referring the matter to the security council? This gives them a huge bargaining chip against the US.

There is a big power struggle going on here. America's world dominance is being challenged. Beware of tunnel vision when it comes to Israel (I know the red mist descends), the big picture is much more interesting.

Its about the first honest thing I've seen you say. Only thing is I already said this quite a while back on a different thread.

If these other super powers decide to take on USA, which I think they already have, then in my opinion, which I agree doesn't count for much, but anyway, my opinion is that the Jews living in Israel, many of whom I believe are peaceful people will ulimately suffer as a result of the zionist policies currently being rammed down their throat as well as the Palestinians.

If the Islamic nations recieve the backing of Russia and China Israel is doomed.

I genuinely fear for them, although the zionists I have no regard for and they will reap what they have sowen.

Originally posted by bigyin

I listened to doctors and UN workers on TV from within Gaza telling us what was going on.

I prefer that evidence to a paid mouthpiece of the IDF.

Please can we keep it civil? This is a collaboration website remember - it's okay for us to disagree with each other on this issue, I'm sure there are lots of other issues we do agree on, so let's keep it friendly

I watched the news as well. As far as I'm concerned the doctors may well have been Hamas operatives - Hezbollah did the same trick in the 2006 Lebanon war. Dressed up as medics and doctors for PR opportunities. Really, I'm not making this up. Those guys are cunning, and excellent at playing the western media.

Casualty figures are an example - two different numbers (700 vs 1400). One figure provided by the IDF who say they were mostly Hamas operatives (and published names of those killed to prove it) and one provided by "Palestinian medical workers" with much higher civilian numbers - well that means Hamas as far as I'm concerned. So the truth is probably somewhere in between, or (shock horror) the IDF figure may actually be closest to the truth? We just don't know.

And UNRWA are also quite chummy with Hamas (they have to be in order to operate - that's how Gaza is) and don't like the IDF much either. I don't blame them, because they work with kids and refugees and imagine all your hard work being undone with a horrible war. But that makes information from them suspect - they were quick to accuse Israel of bombing that UN school for instance, and it turned out largely false.

You're right to be sceptical but apply that scepticism to both sides. Treat everything that comes out of Gaza as suspicious. You don't get to live or work in Gaza without Hamas breathing down your neck, and they want you to think the worst of Israel.

Everyone has an agenda!

reply to post by bigyin


Everything I say is honest, I am giving my own personal opinions which I'm entitled to do.

reply to post by bigyin


I think you're spot on with regards to Russia and China, can you imagine what a slap it the face it was for Obama after he made such a big gesture towards Russia?

But, please could you explain what you mean by Zionist policies being forced down Israeli's throats? Not sure I understand what you mean.

Originally posted by mattpryor

Originally posted by kcfusion

This thread highlights the Israeli governments atrocities during the war. These things did happen.

That's not quite what this thread was about, I seem to remember it being about the Israeli government's concerns about the peace process as a result of the UNHRC's political attack.

Maybe we could get back on that, because there's lots of angles here which we haven't discussed and which merit further debate.

For instance, did you notice that Russia and China voted in favour of referring the matter to the security council? This gives them a huge bargaining chip against the US.

There is a big power struggle going on here. America's world dominance is being challenged. Beware of tunnel vision when it comes to Israel (I know the red mist descends), the big picture is much more interesting.

Agreed!! The bigger picture is whole different ball game! Very scary stuff indeed!

Originally posted by mattpryor

Originally posted by bigyin

I listened to doctors and UN workers on TV from within Gaza telling us what was going on.

I prefer that evidence to a paid mouthpiece of the IDF.

Please can we keep it civil? This is a collaboration website remember - it's okay for us to disagree with each other on this issue, I'm sure there are lots of other issues we do agree on, so let's keep it friendly

The paid mouthpiece I was referring to was Col Kemp. Not you in case you thought it was.

If you don't know what zionist policies are then you should really go and read up before you get involved in any further discussion on these matters.