Why does god play favorites?

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
I only read the OP and some of this page.

Just to say I have a high IQ, no need to vainly flash around numbers, and I very much believe in a ultimate creator.

Once again however I notice a thread which starts by questioning god, but does so by questioning christianity. Do not rely on anyone's scripture to guide you through life. Learn what you can but make informed decisions on your own based upon what you are able to experience.

Averages do not apply to everyone, within any statistic you have variation from the mean, as you no doubt know.

As for learning from experience, you cannot trust your senses. The brain distorts too much of what you see to be able to trust it. This is well backed up by thousands of research studies into vision, sound, touch, smell perception.

The question is, if our own brain is unable to be trusted (at least as far as sensory input) what can we trust? I start out with the axiom that what is real can be measured repeatably by myself and/or others. That's it.

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
reply to post by Dasher

 

I could Not put this better myself... Thank you Dasher for your input..
If I may quote your words again because they should be valued by all.

Commonly Christianity advocates principles of attainment (or in the case of Buddhism the verbally inverse and logical equivalent) like all religions that always end in idolatry. Catholicism and Reformed doctrine also do the same in their own ways. Hinduism and Buddhism, Islam, Paganism, etc. All religions end in idols set up so that man can feel as though they have justified themselves. This is why the Law of the weak becomes ritualistic sets of "If, Then." However, the scripture and nature both plainly show us that we rose up like the animals, and to there from the dirt, by a gift from above. What animals are judges? Men. What animals sin? Men. What Men are good judges? Strong Men. What Men are bad judges? Weak Men.

How does the animal become a judge? How does the weak become strong? By a gift from above. The strong must help the weak as God helps us. The weak must not tear down the strong for what it does not understand, as we should not judge our Creators in our limited capabilities. How oddly contradictory is it for someone to be a weak judge and think they can bring accusation against Those who framed the Cosmos?

So then, while we are failures in our place as judges on the Earth, a position which animals are not inherently suited for and were given the position of regardless, only some have been made good judges. But, being a judge (even a weak one), being a strong judge, these are both spiritual concepts. A man who simply "follows the directions" of the Law is by no means an animal, but he is by no means strong. He is not a good judge and is a slave to the Law and his own nature, not knowing what is strong and weak. A good judge understand where the Law is strong and where the Law is weak, where he, himself, is strong and where he is weak. A good judge is able to deal with both Order AND Charity and bring light into the world. This is NOT what is happening through religions.

As these words are so valuable, could you explain them in 1-2 sentences for us simpletons?

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
May I add my favourite words from The Gospel of Thomas ?
Quote;

39.
Jesus said,

“The Pharisees and the Scribes
have taken The Keys of Knowledge
and Hidden Them.

They themselves
have NOT entered,
nor have they allowed
to enter those
who wish to.

You, however,
be as wise as serpents
and as innocent as doves.”

These keys can be found in Genesis where most assume falsely, that "A’Dam" and "MAN" are one and the same.

The descendants of A'Dam have coveted the name and title MAN, thus committing fornication.

A’Dam is the animal primate.
His life is the breath.
And walks on the Earth

But MAN is the Soul.
And the Life of the Soul, is the "Light" which is the Life of God.
The Soul has Not descended from heaven but remains in heaven.

When these two titles are confused as one entity, then the book is sealed.

But if we recognise this fact then the seals are broken and the book can be read.

This knowledge comes by Grace only.

As Jesus said,
"No one (written or translated incorrectly as man) has assended into heaven, save him who came down from heaven."

This is because "MAN" is already in Heaven but the descendants of A'Dam are on the Earth.

Dust to Dust, and Ashes to Ashes, but I shall remain with my Father in Heaven.
[edit on 26-10-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]

Even if you are correct, this changes nothing at all. If there is a soul (which I personally doubt) then who cares where it is. It's irrelevant to the entire argument. It could be stuck on top of mount everest, and it would change nothing at all.

Unless... you really believe that the bible is all about realising the soul and body are in separate places? What scripture gives you that idea, or is it all your interpretation of a book full of metaphor and allusion?

Regardless, this doesn't change the fact that god creates humans with different abilities to get into heaven. Forget about high IQ for the moment, what about psychopaths who have a natural brain deformity? Was this in his plan, someone who would commit atrocities and never reach heaven?

If you were truly subjected to the will of others and did not create your own reality, then we have no free will. We live in a free will universe. You decided your reality before you came here. Claim you don't create your own reality and you claim you have no power and no free will.

If I was the NWO I would be proud of all you disbelievers. How unempowering!

reply to post by xelamental

Your logic is clouded by bias. Studies show that people with high IQ, and additionally those with higher education are less likely than average to believe in god.

Maybe I should have made myself more clear. I was speaking in terms of IQ as in relation to the bible.

Isn't the bible where we learn of G-d ?


I guess I should have asked for more specific information like,


Who were these people who conducted these studies?

where did these "studies" take place?

How many people were involved in these studies?

What were these peoples religious backgrounds?

What G-d did these people not believe in?

Were they men or woman?

young or old ?

If we knew the answers we would probably be surprised to find out how bias these studies really are.

reply to post by xelamental


you wrote..
Quote;

Regardless, this doesn't change the fact that god creates humans with different abilities to get into heaven. Forget about high IQ for the moment, what about psychopaths who have a natural brain deformity? Was this in his plan, someone who would commit atrocities and never reach heaven?

As is written...
The Gospel According to John Ch. 3 Verse. 13

Jesus said,
"No Man
hath ascended into Heaven,
save him
who hath come down from Heaven,
that is the Son of Man
who is in Heaven"

As I said the title (name) given to the Soul is Man thus Man is in Heaven.

It is the descendants of A'Dam that walk on the Earth, as to say.

Man is formed of Light...

But A'Dam and his descenants are formed of the dust of the ground!

What you wrote...

Regardless, this doesn't change the fact that god creates humans with different abilities to get into heaven.

How can you get into Heaven if you (Man) are already there???

The human Primate can Not enter the Heaven, they are of the Earth!

The flesh I experience is on Earth... Dust to Dust & ashes to ashes!

But I (Man) am already in Heaven, which according to JC has Not descended on to the Earth unlike JC.

[edit on 27-10-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]

reply to post by xelamental


What can we trust is another question entirely.

Just because our sensory input can be tricked, doesn't mean it always is being tricked.

There are far more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosphy etc.

As a species we simply lack the information at this point to be able to give a definitive answer one way or the other, that in my opinion is the honest answer. With what information we do have, it would seem to me highly unlikely that all of the complex balance of rules which make up the universe and the various systems which run it, with their safeguards and such, all came about through pure chance.

I certainly dont prescribe to the scriptoral version of god, but I don't think that just because they got it wrong (or more aptly twisted the concept for their own use) that the idea of god is automatically invalidated.

For those religious people who are reading this surely you guys need to understand the futility of spouting large portions of scripture at people, especially scriptures that are non-main stream, those are parts of a later conversation not an opener, and certainly not proof of anything.

I'd also bet such studies are taken in the secularised west, where outside of America religion is on a downturn. That said I'm sure there are plenty of very intelligent (as in possessed of a high IQ) devout jews and muslims out there, but in places that would not be taking part in this research.

reply to post by xelamental


God doesn't choose your traits, it's freewill. It's your decision whether you believe in God or not.

When I saw the title of this thread I thought you were going to discuss Cain and Abel. I guess not.

God didn't create people. You guys have it all backwards.

Gods are created to serve human purposes. The question should be...why do religious people play favorites with their God?

One is surely as good as another, no?

reply to post by xelamental


The shortest way I can describe things is this;

0≤n≤e≤o≤l≤a≤j≤g≤∞

Where "n" is any noun, "e" is any element, "o" is any complex object, "l" is any life form, "a" is any complex life form (animal), "j" is any judge (man), "g" is any good judge (man/god).


I will think about this more in a while. I have a lot of work to get done.

Originally posted by nwodeath
If you were truly subjected to the will of others and did not create your own reality, then we have no free will. We live in a free will universe. You decided your reality before you came here. Claim you don't create your own reality and you claim you have no power and no free will.

If I was the NWO I would be proud of all you disbelievers. How unempowering!

False conclusion. Please explain how free will = brain creates reality, and why the two are not completely distinct?

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by xelamental

 

Your logic is clouded by bias. Studies show that people with high IQ, and additionally those with higher education are less likely than average to believe in god.

Maybe I should have made myself more clear. I was speaking in terms of IQ as in relation to the bible.

Isn't the bible where we learn of G-d ?


I guess I should have asked for more specific information like,


Who were these people who conducted these studies?

where did these "studies" take place?

How many people were involved in these studies?

What were these peoples religious backgrounds?

What G-d did these people not believe in?

Were they men or woman?

young or old ?

If we knew the answers we would probably be surprised to find out how bias these studies really are.

That's what people who don't like the conclusion of many, many research papers say. Unfortunately, data doesn't lie. If you think there is no difference, by all means collect your own data and write up your results. A simple google search will give you a start.

Originally posted by Dasher
reply to post by xelamental

 

The shortest way I can describe things is this;

0≤n≤e≤o≤l≤a≤j≤g≤∞

Where "n" is any noun, "e" is any element, "o" is any complex object, "l" is any life form, "a" is any complex life form (animal), "j" is any judge (man), "g" is any good judge (man/god).


I will think about this more in a while. I have a lot of work to get done.

Ok, that's simple enough, but it's meaningless jibberish. It tells you nothing, is completely arbitrary and it means even less. I can write things like that all day:

bananas < apples < meat < fish < cake < ∞

Does that make it right? It's not profound, it doesn't mean anything.

What are the implications of your statement? Do they tell us anything that isn't completely meaningless? Completely subjective?

Originally posted by Nosred
reply to post by xelamental

 

God doesn't choose your traits, it's freewill. It's your decision whether you believe in God or not.

When I saw the title of this thread I thought you were going to discuss Cain and Abel. I guess not.

So my eye color is created by freewill? Perhaps I am missing something. I thought our traits were inherited.

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller

So you are saying that our "soul" is already in heaven, and our meat isn't. But... didn't god say it's out meat that gives us entry into heaven, or cast into hell?

And didn't he say that he creates us, individually?

If true, your argument is irrelevant, regardless of where our soul is, where it will be depends on the action of our meaty parts.

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
reply to post by xelamental

 

What can we trust is another question entirely.

Just because our sensory input can be tricked, doesn't mean it always is being tricked.

Sure. But there is uncertainty about it. If we can't replicate it, or there are other explanations provided by science, then surely we must assume our experiences not real.

There are far more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosphy etc.

Name one that you have evidence of. Believing in things that we have no scientific evidence for is the problem.

As a species we simply lack the information at this point to be able to give a definitive answer one way or the other, that in my opinion is the honest answer.

What information are we lacking?

With what information we do have, it would seem to me highly unlikely that all of the complex balance of rules which make up the universe and the various systems which run it, with their safeguards and such, all came about through pure chance.

Perhaps you should spend some time talking to people who can answer your questions properly. You have two choices, chance or god. Which one is more "absurd" given the evidence?

I certainly dont prescribe to the scriptoral version of god, but I don't think that just because they got it wrong (or more aptly twisted the concept for their own use) that the idea of god is automatically invalidated.

Agreed. That doesn't make it right though.

I'd also bet such studies are taken in the secularised west, where outside of America religion is on a downturn. That said I'm sure there are plenty of very intelligent (as in possessed of a high IQ) devout jews and muslims out there, but in places that would not be taking part in this research.

Look it up. You're wrong. Your bias clouded you from a 5 minute paper search - why is that? Do you not want to know the truth?

reply to post by xelamental


The atheist is the lucky one. He sees that all that is written down is bull, thinks everything is luck and goes on living his live pretending it is fun anyway.

He just needs to turn around and say "Boy ... bet on the wrong horse!!!" and be happy to correct his error.

The Religious believe in the book(s) and funny people in funny dresses with funny hats and when he turns around he will most likely say "No way! The scriptures say different! S-A-T-A-N!!! LEAVE ME ALONE!!!" and die deluded.

The creator has no favourites. Every single one of us has the same chance to find him.

It is however easier if you think simple.

Namaste,

Deckard

reply to post by xelamental


Your lack of understanding does not define what is "meaningless."

I have expounded and simplified. I suggest that you take your time when reading something or maybe take some classes in basic logic and philosophy.

I should have been more stable in my original word of being done with this thread. Unless someone else has a sincere question/statement, and an open mind to learn, I am content to accept that you and I will not be able to even agree to disagree.

Originally posted by xelamental

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller

So you are saying that our "soul" is already in heaven, and our meat isn't. But... didn't god say it's out meat that gives us entry into heaven, or cast into hell?

And didn't he say that he creates us, individually?

If true, your argument is irrelevant, regardless of where our soul is, where it will be depends on the action of our meaty parts.

TMT, please understand that someone presupposing things that immediately make the opposing view appear to be foolish most often leads to both parties appearing foolish. Don't get caught in a trap of trying to teach wisdom to someone who lacks willingness to understand, they would rather shame those who try to offer their own insight than patiently listen and ask questions when confused. Haven't you seen to what lengths I have gone to to offer thoughts while being told that my thoughts are meaningless? I have become a fool for their sake, having entertained the OP for this long and enduring words of shame towards myself.

So to you TMT,
Soul is from the Void. Spirit is from Eternity.
Flesh is from the Void. New Flesh is from Eternity (New Flesh is promised after death in the "next world").
Christ and Comfort were sent by the Eternal to bridge the Void and Eternal within the people who are good judges. We are the "fulcrum" of the paradox of Void and Eternity.

I can expound on this point if you would like. You are correctly seeing spiritual patterns, but it seems that you are using terms that are misnomers. Please understand that I am not trying to lower you when I say this. As I said, it appears that you are seeing well, but the words you are using are historically and technically amiss.



xelamental, this is not a reply to you. If you choose to reply to me, please be constructive and willing to learn, or I will waste no further time running in circles hoping for you to be patient and open minded. Thank you.

reply to post by Dasher


The Gospel According to John Ch. 3 Verse. 13

Jesus said,
"No Man
hath ascended into Heaven,
save him
who hath come
down from Heaven,
that is the Son of Man
who is in Heaven"

As I said the title (name) given to the Soul is Man thus Man is in Heaven.

It is the descendants of A'Dam that walk on the Earth, as to say.

Man is formed of Light...

But A'Dam and his descendants are formed of the dust of the ground!

How can you go into Heaven, if you (Man) are already there???

The human Primate can Not enter the Heaven, they are of the Earth!

The flesh I experience is on Earth... Dust to Dust & ashes to ashes!

But I (Man), am already in Heaven, which according to J.C. has Not descended on to the Earth unlike JC.

Humankind is only of a program book, (a story) see The Revelation of JC...

As is written in The Gospel of Thomas....
Quote:

56.
Jesus said,

“Whoever has come
to understand the World
has found only a corpse,
and whoever has found a corpse
is superior to the World.”

and....

49.

Jesus said,

“Blessed are the Solitary and Elect, for you will find The Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.”

The human species returns to the ground....
I don't think this is Paradise !

On the day Jesus was Crucified he said to the man next to him on the cross "Truly I say unto You today you shall be in Paradise with Me".

The Carpenter was laid in a tomb and that is Not Paradise !

So the "I" is another where Jesus said that Day He would be in Paradise.

And....

50.

Jesus said,

“If they say to you,

“Where did you come from?”

say to them,

“We came from The Light, the place where The Light came into being on Its own accord and established Itself and became manifest through their Image.”

If they say to you,

“Is it you?”

say,

“We are its children, and we are the elect of The Living Father.”

If they ask you,

“What is the sign of your Father in you?”

say to them,

“It is Movement and Repose.”