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We Need A Vaccination for American Aggression

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posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 05:34 PM
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put a thread up jenna im sure you will garner alot of sympathy.

all from I.P. addresses in the states.

mean while the rest of the world realises you cannot be behead if your not tresspassing on THEIR streets.



[edit on 15-10-2009 by manxman2]




posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by The-Hammer
I wish I could post the beheading videos of Americans and others but it would probably violate the Terms and Conditions here at ATS.




I wonder why there is no footage of what the Russians have done in Georgia or in Afghanistan before that? Oh I know. Not important.

Never mind...



[edit on 15-10-2009 by SLAYER69]



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by The-Hammer
reply to post by KSPigpen
 



Yeah yeah yeah.

We've seen all of those already. Are we supposed to be shamed or embarrassed? War is not very pretty. As a matter of fact it's down right ugly. Get over it. If you don't like the face of war then do something to change the situation not just jabber jaw here online. If that change doesn't happen with whose in the white house then organize and do it again and again until it happens.

I wish I could post the beheading videos of Americans and others but it would probably violate the Terms and Conditions here at ATS.




Yeah, war IS ugly. Sorry, I hadn't seen any of them until today. I know they're old.

I'm sure I WILL get over it. In due time. Meanwhile, I'll go look for the videos you spoke of and see if I can alter my perspective.



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by KSPigpen
I already stated, my friend, that I realize this only represents one side. There is no doubt in my mind that numerous American and coalition forces have been tortured and killed by captors. I know that THEY don't recognize the GC. I know THEY kill civilians and prisoners. That's THEM. I didn't think it was supposed to be us too.


How many US troops have deployed to the AOR for OIF/OEF?

How many have been involved in the abuse or murder of civilians or EPWs?

True, one incident is too many, but as I said before, don't try to blame them all.


Originally posted by KSPigpen
Well....until I looked up My Lai.


My Lai happened 41 years ago, on 16 March 1968.



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 05:44 PM
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Originally posted by Jenna

Originally posted by KSPigpen
This is ONLY ONE SIDE, I realize that. A 'bleeding heart', perhaps. To be fair, I KNOW there are atrocities on ALL sides of conflicts, but the ENEMY is supposed to be the bad guy.


Well at least you admit it now. So when can we look forward to a thread condemning all the beheadings of US troops when they were captured, or a thread condemning all the Iraqi's who are killing other Iraqi's over religion?


I admitted it pretty early on, Jenna, just won't change the Op, think it's wrong to do that. would be like running away from something I said. A little bit of backpedaling is ok now and then, or 're-education', but denying I said something, or trying to cover it up would just be wrong.

We'll probably get to that one (the beheadings) eventually. Leave no stone unturned, ya know. I hope we can look forward to your input then as well. A more tenacious person I have yet to meet. Didn't we argue a loooooong time ago about Afghanistan? seems like I remember someone with a completely opposed opinion that smacked me around quite a bit then too.
(not a bad smackin' though)



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 05:46 PM
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Er, I am going to have give a STAR, AND FLAG to the OP; as there is a common fine thread I KNOW KS is trying to show. Simply the wars are run for profit, and not going anywhere, but to insure the corporate interests of Global Elites.

We can argue about skewed facts all day long, but the truth in the pudding is that all wars have always been fought over the Elites agendas; not because of farmer joe wanting something of the guy who is across an imaginary line in the sand.

The global elite are multinational with no patriotism of any sort, but to their shadow empires. They are that, while at the same time cramming a national identity down Peoples throats throughout the World.

The Elites have multiple passports; so as to move freely throughout the World, and the average Person is lucky to have the simple single passport of their country. Now, they are locking that down where should You owe any monies to the state, then they cancel the passport. We truly are slaves who are doing the bidding of the Elites who don't operate in a set national boundary as the slaves, but they operate in general geographics; with regional controls.

Point I am making in a nutshell is We need to bring the troops home, and concentrate on making a better USA



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 05:47 PM
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reply to post by KSPigpen
 

I'm sorry, but are those videos supposed to show something?

Supposedly, the Taliban group surrendered, and some were trucked off and disappeared. I hate to break it to you, but there were fewer than 300 Special Forces, TACP's and Company Branch Operatives in country when these forces surrendered to the Northern Alliance forces.

Who just had their commander killed by a suicider from Al-Queda. This is how Afghans frequently treat their enemies. It is these same Taliban who would bury a young girl up to her armpits and stone her.

I think they likely got exactly what they deserved.

The video of US soldiers shooting the guy who was down? Did you not see the rifle right beside him? Did you see any uniform on the guy? Non-uniformed combatants are not protected under the Geneva Conventions.

The looters who had their method of looting crushed by a tank? I would think that's self-explanatory.

The aircraft that bombed the group walking down the street? That wasn't a random group of civilians going for a Sunday walk. So they got smoked.

You are picking fly **** out of pepper.



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by KSPigpen
I admitted it pretty early on, Jenna, just won't change the Op, think it's wrong to do that. would be like running away from something I said. A little bit of backpedaling is ok now and then, or 're-education', but denying I said something, or trying to cover it up would just be wrong.


No I meant the bleeding heart part, not the one-sided part. Should've been specific, sorry.



We'll probably get to that one (the beheadings) eventually. Leave no stone unturned, ya know. I hope we can look forward to your input then as well. A more tenacious person I have yet to meet. Didn't we argue a loooooong time ago about Afghanistan? seems like I remember someone with a completely opposed opinion that smacked me around quite a bit then too.
(not a bad smackin' though)


Soon as it's posted let me know and I'll be there, and I'm taking tenacious as a compliment. I can't remember if we did or not. I've argued with a lot of people over the years about it though so it's entirely possible. Of course if they smacked you around quite a bit then I'm not opposed to taking credit!



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by The-Hammer
I wish I could post the beheading videos of Americans and others but it would probably violate the Terms and Conditions here at ATS.




I wonder why there is no footage of what the Russians have done in Georgia or in Afghanistan before that? Oh I know. Not important.

Never mind...



[edit on 15-10-2009 by SLAYER69]


I don't agree with you Slayer. I think it IS important and it will get added to the list of things I need to learn. Like I said, I just always thought the US was supposed to better than all that. I thought we were supposed to take the higher ground.

For the most part, I suppose our troops do. It's the leaders I worry about.

Maybe you can answer something not entirely unrelated for me, Slayer.

The men and women soldiers at abu ghraib,the ones that seemed to have so much fun....do you think they were 'normal' people at one time? Do you think they are still normal? Do you think given the circumstances they were placed in by their leaders, that we would ALL be prone to behave like that?

What about killing the wounded guy? I'm not trying to bash anyone, really. I was mad yesterday, but today I just really want to understand. Do you think they had orders to kill the wounded guy? Do you think that is ok? It's easier than trying to take care of them. huh? I'm not trying to bait you or anything. I respect your opinion, even though I may not share it.



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 06:05 PM
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reply to post by KSPigpen
 


My point is that it only seems to be fashionable to bash the US but other Countries get off Scott free.

All this fuels is more Anti-Americanism/West meanwhile countries who have done ten times more as far as human carnage get rocketed to almost mythical status. I know we are the US so we are supposed to be held to a higher standard.

If people would have seen the real carnage of war on D-Day things would have probably grown to a halt.


[edit on 15-10-2009 by SLAYER69]



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by sanchoearlyjones
Er, I am going to have give a STAR, AND FLAG to the OP; as there is a common fine thread I KNOW KS is trying to show. Simply the wars are run for profit, and not going anywhere, but to insure the corporate interests of Global Elites.

We can argue about skewed facts all day long, but the truth in the pudding is that all wars have always been fought over the Elites agendas; not because of farmer joe wanting something of the guy who is across an imaginary line in the sand.

The global elite are multinational with no patriotism of any sort, but to their shadow empires. They are that, while at the same time cramming a national identity down Peoples throats throughout the World.

The Elites have multiple passports; so as to move freely throughout the World, and the average Person is lucky to have the simple single passport of their country. Now, they are locking that down where should You owe any monies to the state, then they cancel the passport. We truly are slaves who are doing the bidding of the Elites who don't operate in a set national boundary as the slaves, but they operate in general geographics; with regional controls.

Point I am making in a nutshell is We need to bring the troops home, and concentrate on making a better USA


I agree with most of this post and I *think* this is the point many others are trying to make. It's a multi-national problem. Every country has its issues and every country has been involved in situations it's not proud of. The single-minded US bashing isn't furthering this particular understanding. US might be in the lime-light, it's not innocent, but it's NOT blame-shifting to point out that the US is not the only country who's actions need to be examined...

I really think the fundamental issues and concerns could and should be discussed without singling a particular country and/or using examples from multiple countries and *perhaps* the important messages might get through more clearly, encourage a more meaningful discussion and be more understood by all participants.

[edit on 15-10-2009 by LadySkadi]



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 06:34 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 


Just trying to make sense of it Dooper. Maybe it's not something that will ever MAKE any sense. I suppose I can accept that.

What the videos represented to me, if they were accurate, was war crimes. I'll admit that my understanding is far from sufficient to make an educated determination of the reality portrayed in the videos or their implications.

I fully understand that THIS is the way THEY treat THEIR prisoners and even citizens. But is it not understandable that when our troops, acting under their orders, do the same thing, it is hard to see who is actually on the right side?

Again, I don't know poo from shinola and you guys have gone way beyond what would be expected of anyone to express your views and give a different perspective and I am genuinely appreciative of that.

What I'm having difficulty with is the line that we cross when the guy laughs and says how 'cool' it was to shoot that guy. How the pilot said 'Duuude' when the bomb lands in the crowd. at what point, in the enjoyment of committing these acts have we crossed the line that separates US from THEM?

When we ENJOY that stuff, how is it that we can claim any moral superiority? How is it THEN that what we are doing is the 'just' thing. How can atrocities on ONE side justify atrocities on the other?

You get where I'm coming from Dooper? I'm not asking if it's ok for THEM to do that. We expect that from them, but have we come to the point where we should expect that of ourselves? Have we come to the point where a different 'flavor' or war crime is acceptable, if it's OUR guys doing it?
I'm just having a hard time shirking the hypocrisy in that, but again, I admittedly don't know jack.

Thanks for your input.



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by KSPigpen
The men and women soldiers at abu ghraib,the ones that seemed to have so much fun....do you think they were 'normal' people at one time? Do you think they are still normal? Do you think given the circumstances they were placed in by their leaders, that we would ALL be prone to behave like that?


Honesty? I think those people were broken before they got to Abu Ghraib.


Originally posted by KSPigpen
What about killing the wounded guy? I'm not trying to bash anyone, really. I was mad yesterday, but today I just really want to understand. Do you think they had orders to kill the wounded guy? Do you think that is ok? It's easier than trying to take care of them. huh? I'm not trying to bait you or anything. I respect your opinion, even though I may not share it.


I couldn't see the video. Is this the one were the insurgent is in the street and gets zapped? If so, he's still a target. He wasn't trying to surrender. He was still a soldier.

And wounded troops are better than dead ones. One is wounded, it takes sometimes two others to get him to the aid station. That takes three guys out of the fight.



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by KSPigpen
What I'm having difficulty with is the line that we cross when the guy laughs and says how 'cool' it was to shoot that guy. How the pilot said 'Duuude' when the bomb lands in the crowd. at what point, in the enjoyment of committing these acts have we crossed the line that separates US from THEM?


Again, if it's the video I remember, that troop looked to be about 18. And the question asked is probably the most stupid question asked, "How do you feel?" I would love to tell a reporter to take a weapon and go find out for themselves.

When we were told that we'd killed someone, I was just glad I did my job right and that those insurgents wouldn't be killing anyone else.

My friend was infantry in Vietnam. He said he felt two things. One was, "Yes! I got him!". The second was, "I'm glad that wasn't me."

And for the pilot saying, "Dude". You do know that the word "dude" can mean many things.



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by KSPigpen
 


My point is that it only seems to be fashionable to bash the US but other Countries get off Scott free.

All this fuels is more Anti-Americanism/West meanwhile countries who have done ten times more as far as human carnage get rocketed to almost mythical status. I know we are the US so we are supposed to be held to a higher standard.

If people would have seen the real carnage of war on D-Day things would have probably grown to a halt.


[edit on 15-10-2009 by SLAYER69]


That is certainly understandable and agreeable. I don't think it's entirely true as I think a good number of countries, 'civilized' countries anyway, will put up a stink when they get to see what war is about and the cost in lives it is having and the carnage it creates.

I don't think other countries have the ability or freedom to be as vocal with their opposition as the people in the US get the privilege to do, paid for, undoubtedly by that same carnage, but there are still protests. I'm almost wondering if at some point ALL nations, internally, don't go through a period where they tend to be more critical of their own actions than those of others.

So what ABOUT the higher standard, Slayer? Is it asking too much? SHOULD we be held to a higher standard? isn't that what a lot of this is about? does a country like the United States NEED to be held 'more' accountable than some backwater, illiterate nation?



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by KSPigpen
What about killing the wounded guy? I'm not trying to bash anyone, really. I was mad yesterday, but today I just really want to understand. Do you think they had orders to kill the wounded guy? Do you think that is ok? It's easier than trying to take care of them. huh? I'm not trying to bait you or anything. I respect your opinion, even though I may not share it.


And wounded troops are better than dead ones. One is wounded, it takes sometimes two others to get him to the aid station. That takes three guys out of the fight.


Okay, I thought I might have gotten my wires crossed at some point because I was always taught the same...in war you never shoot to kill, you shoot to wound because you take 3 people out of combat with each shot...and you *NEVER* shoot the wounded because not only is it the morally human thing to do, it also is tactically the correct course of action because it makes that wounded a liability to the "enemy", which by killing the wounded you'd actually be doing your "enemy" a favor (although not doing the wounded guy any favors).

Good to know that I must have went to the same school on Battlefield Strategy and Tactics as you did.


So, unless they don't teach the same things these days in Basic Training, then someone must either have some aggression issues or panicked under fire to kill the wounded. Granted, I have no room to judge in the later case as I've never personally been in a live firefight, so I can't really say what I would have done in their shoes, even though I know what I should done.



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 06:44 PM
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reply to post by KSPigpen
 


I understand the questions you're asking in this post, I've wondered this myself... I think that asking the questions and seeking the answers from those who've been there is the closest someone might come to finding some meaningful answers, but I also think that this might be something that those of us who've never been to war will never understand.

I also think that it's situational and the experiences and reactions of everyone will be different. It's very hard to generalize the reactions someone is going to have to such a situation...


[edit on 15-10-2009 by LadySkadi]



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 06:56 PM
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your populace still had the power to end vietnam as your distaste for defeat was felt right thru america .. i wonder if your losses were a 100k plus .. whether you would be so flippant about their lives as you are other nations populaces.

[edit on 15-10-2009 by manxman2]



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by LadySkadi
 




I agree with most of this post and I *think* this is the point many others are trying to make. It's a multi-national problem. Every country has its issues and every country has been involved in situations it's not proud of. The single-minded US bashing isn't furthering this particular understanding. US might be in the lime-light, it's not innocent, but it's NOT blame-shifting to point out that the US is not the only country who's actions need to be examined...

I really think the fundamental issues and concerns could and should be discussed without singling a particular country and/or using examples from multiple countries and *perhaps* the important messages might get through more clearly, encourage a more meaningful discussion and be more understood by all participants.


...and I take responsibility for that. You folks have been awful patient and not nearly as mean as I probably would have been in your shoes.

It's awful hard to have a meaningful conversation when you have someone calling the US the biggest killers in the world. (oops) I have a really bad habit of being emotional sometimes when I post.

I really didn't MEAN to be bashing America, but I realize it probably turned out that way and I apologize to you guys. "love it or LEAVE it", right?


What angered me the most was seeing how we are sending so many more troops over to Afghanistan. How the numbers in Iraq are fudged by replacing regular troops with contractors. I can't escape the feeling of doom in Afghanistan and I was feeling particularly powerless and angry. I can't escape the feeling that even though they all volunteered, that stop-loss has kept many in longer than what they wanted, with little recourse. I can't get past the feeling that the next time my friend goes back (for the fourth time) that he won't make it back.

I know my emotions are inconsequential in a discussion, but I'm affected by them. I can't go back and undo the Op and wouldn't if I could.

I can't jump up and down, excited about bombs hitting groups of people. I can't do it for them, and I can't do it for us.

I can probably certainly try to be a little more respectful though.

When I get in trouble at work, my immediate supervisor is also the one that sits in on the grievance process. if I want to appeal his actions, I have to appeal it to him. I can't help but draw some parallels with the some countries today. The old saying used to be 'the buck stops here.' But when the US is responsible for doling out international punishment, who spanks the US when she is wrong?

I suppose rather than question that, I should be happy that we seem so far removed from the likelihood of suffering, via international action, because of the choices of a few bad apples.

Thanks for your input, Sk8. I really appreciate it.

[edit on 15-10-2009 by KSPigpen]



posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 07:18 PM
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reply to post by KSPigpen
 


Now this post I can agree with for the most part. Star for you.


We all get affected by our emotions when we post, anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or incapable of feeling anything. And you're right, it is hard to have a meaningful discussion with someone who's calling the US the world's biggest killer. That automatically puts everyone on the defensive and you can't really discuss anything that way.



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