Large Hadron Collider being stopped, from the future?!

reply to post by sapien82


"freestone" initiated the topic.

Freeman?

reply to post by freestonew


Remember, Dr. Nielsen and friends live and work in the realm where science meets magic(k). Their predecessors rubbed elbows with Crowley and were frequent players in the OTO and Order of the Golden Dawn. It would not surprise me at all if these traditions persist on the bleeding edge of particle and quantum physics but are more shrewdly concealed from public scrutiny.

Considering this metaphysical bent, it is not that far fetched to consider that maybe this notion of the Higgs particle unmaking itself from the future is the Saner Sounding way of conveying what Nielsen and Co. are really pondering.

Remember, isolating the Higgs Particle would more or less involve looking into the space between are smallest known particles. There are those who believe that alternate dimensions co-exist in the same space as our own, just 1 trillionth of a micron in a different direction. Shift your perception in a small enough increment on a infintesimal scale and you could find yourself face to face with a dinosaur, a demon, an angel or an identical version of yourself save for the fact that the alternate you has a hamster in its mouth.

Who is to say that the Higgs does not have conciousness? It may very well be a gatekeeper between worlds that is doing its damnedest to stop one from bleeding into another. Or it could be that it does not have conciousness, but those who understand it's implications under some other name are acting to prevent its invocation.

Is all of this bat feces crazy? Of course it is. But this is the place we find ourselves in this far out from the rudimentary science we can see touch and taste on a daily basis.

The whole time travel/ripple thing is far fetched, imho. But, I suppose there is the small percentage chance that it will create strange matter or 'strangelets' which would not be a good thing at all.

Originally posted by Amagnon
...I think the vacuum is a super fluid crystalline lattice composed of electrons and positrons - which form particles at the Plank length. This may have the energy to force them out of the lattice - making a nasty tear in the vacuum - should disappear instantly though - of course, 'should' lacks a certain authority ..

Yes, it certainly does, and so does the concept of "disappear instantly". I've always had problems with "instantly" as it seems to me something of an impossibility if it's related to any kind of event, because any event (assumedly) takes a certain amount of time. I know that's a highly simplistic way of presenting a point but I hope it makes some sense. You comments surely do, whether we are concerned about the "instantly" problem or not.

On a slightly different but still relevant matter in relation to time travel or other such wonderful oddities, someone mentioned earlier in the thread that time travel could possibly be achieved by connecting two black holes. I like that idea, but for some years now I've been musing over how a one-sided sphere could be created that might achieve the same sort of results, but without the need for black holes.

By a one-sided sphere I mean something along the lines of a moebius strip, but spherical and "enclosing" rather than planar, and with the feature that its inside and outside are actually one and the same. (I don't mean like a Klein bottle but a stage further than that.) If anyone could computer-model one that would be interesting. I guess it might be done by incorporating t1 and t2, to allow for the inside and outside to co-exist in the same space.

It's the paradox of the shape that makes me wonder if it would allow for odd effects... Might such a shape/object have the ability to allow for time travel?

As for the LHC being stopped from the future, I follow the arguments pretty well even if I don't get all the finer details that some have raised. I suppose if we allow for various streams of reality then we could get bumped from one into another by this clash of energies (poor term I know), and so if that happened I doubt we'd be much the wiser. Okay, so there's the paradox that if this actually happened it was our reality anyway, but all the same it's interesting to consider.

[edit on 15/10/09 by JustMike]

Originally posted by fromunclexcommunicate
Some physicists have theorized that time travel would be possible through a wormhole which is two black holes connected to each other.

So at some point in the distant future addressing and time traveling through worm holes could become a perfected art. The consequences of creating a black hole with the new super collider as a historically known event would provide a time portal to our world according to Bells Theorem.

So what are they going to dream up next?

I believe that's what SOME ufo's are; time machines.

I mean, certainly at some point in the future, we would have the tech. I mean HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, maybe MILLIONS of years into the future, and incidentally, giving evolution time to make our heads bigger for brain capacity, give us huge, black, almond-shaped eyes because our sun keeps getting dimmer and dimmer, eliminTING OUR SEX- ORGANS, LETTING US DEVELOP TELEPATHY, ETC. ETC. (SOORY @ CAPS) Just like modern-day "aliens". They're us.

And what would be the ultimate in social engineering, huh? Being able to go back in time to manipulate the current time.

As someone else noted above, the idea that its sabotaging itself is a contradictory paradox.

It can't send anything back in time, because in actuality it would stop itself from being able to do that.

Kind of like shooting Hitler dead before he came to power. If he's dead, there would be no need for someone in the future to travel back and kill him, so he wouldn't be killed....

Time travel is not for the feint heared...

[edit on 15/10/09 by neformore]

reply to post by neformore

Kinf of like shooting Hitler dead before he came to power. If he's dead, there would be no need for someone in the future to travel back and kill him, so he wouldn't be killed....

Time travel is not for the feint heared...

Well see, that is where the "multiverse" theory comes in and the infinite amount of timelines. So let us say that someone from the year 2030 went back to 1930 and killed Hitler in an attempt to stop World War Two. Well because they did that the original timeline (the one the time traveler left) is immediately terminated and a new one, with the new information (Hitler dead before war can start) is started, or more so "reset". That is the theory that seems to make sense and appears to be valid based upon current quantum level observations. It also works out real nice as it prevents any of the paradoxical situations like you astutely mentioned in your above post.

[edit on 10/15/2009 by jkrog08]

reply to post by jkrog08


Only if the time traveller swapped universes!

Complicated isn't it

In a new multiverse, at the point of shooting, Hitler would be dead, and the timeline would change.

In the existing multiverse of the shooter, as soon as they made the decision to pull the trigger they would cease to be relevant to the timeline, and be removed from it. Hitler would still live though.

Also, its not just Hitler and the shooter that are affected. In the universe where Hitler dies every decision made by anyone from that point onwards would be affected as well, with further exponential repercussions.

okay my head is spinning!

so because the LHC doesn't work proves that it does work?

Originally posted by neformore
As someone else noted above, the idea that its sabotaging itself is a contradictory paradox.

It can't send anything back in time, because in actuality it would stop itself from being able to do that.

Kind of like shooting Hitler dead before he came to power. If he's dead, there would be no need for someone in the future to travel back and kill him, so he wouldn't be killed....

Time travel is not for the feint heared...

very true, it would become a loop potentially. now, considering that many possible futures are possible given the basic quantum flux and improbability, and so on; if something was causing potential futures to wink out of existence (and thus possibility) instead.

now, time travel on teh other hand says absolutely nothing against something breeding/creating a being/machine/etc to nullify its own existence one an item has been made.

Wow!
This theory really IS very interesting.
Lets say time traveling is possible.
Then I’ll say its the time travelers sabotaging the collider, because once we activate it, it will change something in the earth’s magnetic field and the solar flares will destroy much of it. Hundreds of years into the future, civilization will emerge once again into a technological one and scientists want to avoid the “worlds end” that happened centuries ago. How you do that? By sending an elite force to stop ourselves.

There MUST be Multiverses.

Otherwise, all reality and perception of ALL Human Beings and Animals is limited to a single string that is dictated using, what are now thought of, as "old fashioned" Einstonian views of overal reality.

It is quite simple really (except for the majority of American yobs).....

Every living entity on this Planet, that is, every entity that has (currently) a biological will to live, survive and continue it's species (I carefully did NOT use the verb reproduce).

Any BS AI (artificial Intelligence for the American 'readers' " that one wishes to introduce are simply laughable. AI is at the slug level at the moment so just FORGET answering that point here and now ok??!!

We are living in a contiguous timeline.

If we were NOT living in a timeline thus defined then all SORTS of WEIRD # would be happening.

Lets be clear about this HERE AND NOW.

If time travel has, was, will be discovered, then we would, had, will be seeing it's effects, rippling thru the time corridoor, in virtually real time.

OK, before the inept, undereducated USA members of ATS start to bring in their RIDICULOUS Star Trek theories (point of interest, I LOVE Star Trek as a Sci-fi fantasy!!) we need to be TOTALLY clear about things.

If the MASS of an entity from any other continuum, comes into contact with ANY mass preceeeding it's existance, by way of even a billionth of a micro-second, then it would cause severe conflicts to the way that HUMANS perceive our linear timeline.

Careful now.... I say that the way HUMANS perceive Time.

This here is the rub if you like.

Due to millions of years of evolution, Homo sapiens are, unfortunately, intrinsically linked to the way that time passes on our plain.

Here lies our POSSIBLE conclusion.

Einstein states, quite clearly, that it is not possible to travel faster than light because at the speed of light mass becomes infinite and therefore how can Humans retain their bodies, blah...blah...blah, dur...dur...dur...

If you've ever read special relativity then you will dig it.

BUT......

What if.....

One does NOT have to travel faster than this PUNY speed of light (do you actually KNOW how far it is to out nearest Star....System...GALALXY at the speed of light??!!)

Now, here's the issue.

If we, somehow enable mammels to travel FTL, then CLEARLY time travel COULD occur.

If I can travel faster than light and end up, in tact afterwards, say, to tell myself NOT buy that dodgy american hot dog, then I MUST continue to exist to be able to warn myself?

What is introduced is a LARGE measure of CERTAINTY.

So, and I am hereby inviting ATS readers to read, digest and offer similar theories, because I KNOW, that currently, people walk out infront of Buses, Trains, Cars, Horses, blah, blah, BLAHHHHH........

That ANY form of REAL EFFECTIVE time travel has not, is not and as YET IN THE FUTURE, NOT BEEN discovered and mad EFFECTIVE for ANY type of mammalian specise to use, survive and, indeed, utilise.

One can SEE linear, uninturrupted time being demonstrated when one views websites like utube or nothingtoxic.

One can SEE uninturrupted linear time being played out IN THE OPEN, when we watch the television and/or view an online video clip.

FORGET, such issues as "a cup of water being taken from the Atlantic Ocean" or "a stone being removed from the grand canyon".

This is HOLLYWOOD Science.

Humans live in the now.

If things WERE happening that would/could/SHOULD be altered then our limited perceptions of linera time would be so SEVERELY affected that the whole PLANET would be in turmoil.

THEREFORE, I submit, that time travel, at least into the PAST, or into THIS SECOND NOW AS I TYPE AND THE SECOND THAT YOU, THE READER, READ THIS THREAD, EXCEPT FOR SOME GLOBAL, CULTURE CHANGING EVENT THAT OCCURS , is currently, and will REMAIN, non viable, within THIS current verion of the multiverse, to Human beings.

And then again.....

Let us say that timetravel, within the SAME multiverse IS possible.

That would put these "travellers" up there with 'gods' would it not?

BECAUSE, they would have FULL and TOTAL visibility of out current situation, would be able to calculate the KEY nexus points to be able to guide THIS multiverse on this track or another etc. etc.

But, we seem to be on this linear track still.

Here in the UK, the news reports that there will be some days in the near future that post ("mail" for the Americans) will NOT be delivered due to an impending strike of Postmen/women.

Now, PREVIOUS knowledge of the UK news clearly shows that certain issues, that neccesitated a definite HUMAN intervention and decision making process, based on multiple working, cultural and status positioning processes, from both sides (management & staff) indicates that UNLESS some sort of indepth, highly organised 'time traveller network' was/is/will be in place to alter the thoughts of EVERY key postman/woman in the Greater London area, thereby making them agreable to voting FOR a strike, then clearly the time travellers are either completely abscent OR... are not interested in controlling an issue that they 'deem'to be so unimportant.

But think about the Post/mail......

How many multiverse, decision paths were, are, could be decided by the receipt of a letter thru the front door.....

The issue of human emotion and DIRECT discussional intervention are completely removed by sendin a letter to someone.

Forget email, there are so many email packets flying about the Globe thesedays that ANY intervention from time travellers (Shall we call them TT's hereforward please?!) that to think that 'they can control such vast amounts of data, in an instant, surely brings one to the thought that they must be a God or God, controlling and willing every particle in that particular Multiverse?

So ..... we are left with what?

TT's are either Gods...or they do NOT exist?

Can that be?

I find it VERY hard to accept the above 2 conclusions.

Because, at it's most basic, as a reasoned person, I simply CANNOT accept Einstein's theory that it is impossible for a Human to travel faster than light (and therefore potentially, travel in time - explanation given for our US cousins...).

There have been recent announcements that light particles have moved thru time.

To me, that immediately makes all bets OFF!!

This is simply, AGAIN, down to Einsteins Relativity, he states himself that at the speed of light, mass becomes infinite, not destroyed, altered/converted or so.

As we all know, energy cannot be destroyed, only converted.

These recent experiments seem to indicate that of the mass of the particles that are moved superfast are the key.

Reduce the mass down to as near to zero (for example, a light wave/particle) then Einsteins theory breaks down because there is minimul and/or no mass exhibited to become infinite which would inturrupt his equation based on his and older newtonian theories.

I have not touched on the subject of Quantum Physics because I am still trying to read-up and 'grasp' it's concepts, with regard to Newtonian and Einsonian views.

I would GREATLY welcome thoughtful and learned opinions.

reply to post by Cadbury


Sadly, it seems only guerilla shaman covertly dosing the milk supply with ayahuasca can save us from ourselves. If this infernal machine can manufacture the needed supply then may they get it up and running post haste.

Originally posted by broli
Random guys says it he gets labeled crackpot. Theoretical physicist says it he gets labeled genius.

Amen to this.

I can see how possibly if it creates some weird particle in the future it actually ripples time and causes breakdowns. But if that happens, then wouldn't there be 2 different Earths in the same place at the same time as soon as the particle is meant to be created? That would be a paradox, wouldn't it?

reply to post by paranoiaFTW


It could be the future relative to this timeline but really the branches that had the effect in the future would already be pruned and therefore the only possible branches are ones where the collider failed to produce a positive result for some reason.

They are more blind than blind alleys. In short there's no going "back". Nothing happened in the future where in fact a successful experiment was conducted. The global structure had no such pathways to begin with.

In the wake of news about the initiation of the LHC project some people used to say that it would be a huge waste of money and that science should just accept a different paradigm instead of throwing tons of money out of the window building colliders and accelerators. Although i believe this is not necessarily the case about the diamond synchrotron in England www.diamond.ac.uk because it offers real practical results, although it uses the same philosophy of utilizing huge resources and money in order to produce results. Maybe things would be done cheaper if science considered for once to use a different paradigm in research. Abandon the quest for the elusive particle that may be or not be there. The reality scientists are after may be or not be there.
What if the teams of LHC after the first initial tests are witnessing the possibility that this elusive reality of high energy physics is just not there? That things are not working the way they have predicted them to do? That it won't really produce practical results and they are only now starting to realize this?

Would cheaper science be able to produce better and more insightful results?
Some people say yes.

What do we need the discovery of the Higgs particle for and the verification of the whole theory that lays behind it?
It's for ultimately getting an idea of how we could manipulate space and time.
Why would we need to manipulate space and time mechanically, energetically?
Ultimately is to solve the problem that to cover huge distances and to process enormous amount of information and act upon it, we would need to figure out a way to manipulate time and space so actual progress can happen within the limits of a single human lifetime span, in regards of our own species expanding beyond our world and maintaining a connection initially with our home planet.

How much do we actually know about the mechanics of matter, time and the universe? Should we be able to physically pick up the phone at our working place from our home bedrooms? What if the particles that they seek and the matter and time mechanics they have envisioned exist in another reality or confines that we can't reach from here? What if we are trying to reach from level 1 to level 5 without making sure we already covered levels 2 to 4? What if the LHC is trying to produce that outcome? Wouldn't it be a failure? Maybe the vailed coments like "Higgs particle travels through time and stops it's own discovery" are meant to say
"We failed, we were wrong all along".
"Our science of high energy physics ws wrong all along, as we have been expecting that it might be, all along.."

I don't really expect them to come forward out in the open and say, "Hey guys, you know what? Our entire concept was a failure these last 80 years, so stop giving us money for this and give us money for that."

[edit on 16-10-2009 by spacebot]

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences.

Explanation: If the Higgs boson is so abhorent RE: " the hypothesized Higgs boson, which physicists hope to produce with the collider, might be so abhorrent to nature" and yet it is the mediating gauge force carrier, then please explain to me why there seems to be about 5% of the universe that has mass! That alone tells me that the probabilty of any one higgs boson acting at anyone Plancks second within the ubiquitous scalar Higgs field of the universe is 1 in 20. Thats not abhorent at all [which by its own definition means an extremely low probability of say less than 1 in a googleplex etc!] as its an amazingly high incidence of actual occurance!

Personal Disclosure: I've always wondered where the extra energy for the ubiquitous scalar Higgs field comes from if the universe is expanding?

P.S. IMO it should be observable at low energy levels as mass to energy conversion can occur at our scales and in our local environment and this would require the subatomic particles at play to firstly absorb an external amount of energy which would excite and elevate its total mass by default i.e E=MC^2 also = energy coupling to the Higss field, and then as it seeks to reach a ground state of energy it sheds this gained energy by emmiting a discrete boson carrier photon packet [burst of EMS light waves restricted to a set frequency,amplitude etc at creation] which is the decoupling of this extra mass energy from the Higss field in the form of a massless gauge force carrier! The Higgs boson, if it exists, MUST be mediating these low temp and pressure etc interactions or we wouldn't be here!

Forgive me for repeating myself (albeit in a markedly different way) but it IS possible for the Higgs to self-sabotage without violating causality.

By removing mass from a particle, we could theoretically screw up its relation with space and time- unless of course I'm and idiot- at least by sthe standards of astrophysicists- (which, come to think of it, I consider not only possible but likely... however if DO happen to understand physics correctly despite my inability do perform basic algebra, the fact that any massive object gains infinite mass at the speed of light, and therefore cannot achieve stasis or backwards motion in time, essentially tells us that by losing the property of mass a particle would become capable of achieving a different relationship with space and time, while simultaneously losing most interaction with the physical world).

Therefore (unless, as I admit to be likely, I am an astrophysical nincompoop) we could possibly interfere with our own OBSERVATION of a successful experiment without actually preventing the success of the experiment (which I assume has vast quantum-physical implications, considering that we are removing observation and therefore doing Schrodinger's Cat a wonderful favor). The most obvious of these implications is the somewhat circular conclusion that the Higgs is bound to be created even when it is not created, so long as we don't get to peek at it.