So they are saying that their efforts to detect the existance of the Higgs Boson is causing a ripple backwards in time preventing them from detecting it ? So why do they continue to work on it ? Are their efforts putting us in a time loop, and at what point do we hit the RESET ?

Or is this just Sci-Fi talk for "OOPS we screwed the pooch, but we got a 9 billion dollar magnet to play with" ?

Disregard


[edit on 14-10-2009 by notreallyalive]

Originally posted by Grayarea
So they are saying that their efforts to detect the existance of the Higgs Boson is causing a ripple backwards in time preventing them from detecting it ? So why do they continue to work on it ? Are their efforts putting us in a time loop, and at what point do we hit the RESET ?

Or is this just Sci-Fi talk for "OOPS we screwed the pooch, but we got a 9 billion dollar magnet to play with" ?

This is just a theory but it is certainly an interesting one. I do hope it is not the case though because I really want to see what the LHC can do at its full power and what discoveries are made.

This is crazy how they are having second thoughts about the outcome of the whole thing. I don't know if anyone in here remembers a thread i made about LHC along with black holes. Well let me throw out my own ideas about black holes. People was wondering what cause a black hole and how it was made and all and also what does it do. Honestly no one really knows.. people on Earth anyways. But as for how black holes are made... The BIG Black hole is made from and by some type of company called LHC. The company that build the collider have used it to study how our existent is made. So out somewhere far a long time ago this "World" had some type of company like "LHC" and collided the particles. Little did they know what the consequences hold for their action. So the particals collided and then they study begins with spectacullar findings. The scientist already know there is a possibility of a black hole forming and it did and sooner or later the black hole grew larger and larger. The scientist did not know what to to to stop it but it became larger and eventually swallowed the whole "world" they was living in. So is just my way of saying maybe this is how a black hole is formed. Lol It was caused by some scientist trying to find life on some distant "world" what they used to live but ended up killing their own existant. Lol Its just a fun little theory that i thought of. BUt who knows.

I think your all missing an important point here. As always most of you are making assumptions, assumptions such as the fact that these scientists that spent BILLIONS of tax payers money on this pile of garbage are telling the truth...... Thats right i said it.

What if this was all a scam to siphon money into some black project to do who the hell knows what, dig massive underground bases. spend the money on hookers and drugs who knows. All im saying is its pretty convenient that this thing that was supposed to answer all these questions is being JINXED from the future. i mean come on. Its not like they can show the tax payers a 90 billion dollar receipt from radio Shack for a LHC. Who kept a track of all this spending and best of all who is asking the question? Nobody thats who.

I have been accused of flights of fancy more often than not but still i like to look for the most mundane answer first. Lets take human greed out of the equation first and then we can settle on exotic theories like future particles messing with the experiment.

Any thoughts?

I'm half-surprised they didn't blame a witch-doctor in some 3rd world country.

You'd have to be an idiot to think everything would go 100% OK from the start - you're talking about a facility 17 miles in diameter - x2 tubes, all the wires, connections, liquid helium, how many hundred (thousand?) computers do they have running in there? How many miles of wires? You're talking about accelerating the nuclei of a particle to speeds that make it weigh some 7000 times what it normally does - they're going somewhere in the area of 186,000 miles per second, do you know what kind of force is needed to keep those things going in a circle?

Heck, people have a hard enough time building cars to go 1/4 mile in less than 10 seconds. This is just a little more complex than that.

I think that what they are saying is actually along the lines of how long it takes light to reach us from other planets. If in fact the creation of the Higgs is so extremely energetic, and we found it today, perhaps the energy it creates, in that it imbues atoms with mass (if I understand correctly) would alter the atomic structure of the very devices used to create the Higgs. If that is the case then like Keely's Law of sympathetic vibration, all atoms in the structure would be effected. If the atoms are effected in that space time, then a gradual ripple effect would move out through space-time, reaching back to this point wherein the collider is still being built. They could test for atomic anomalies such as anomalous atomic mass which is out of sink with the rest of the structure. If they find that there is an anomalous atomic mass variation throughout the structure, then they would be able to safely theorize that at some point in the future they have accomplished their goal. At that point I think it would be time for some serious research on just what sort of alteration had been made to the atomic structure before going any further as by such they may ascertain what the potential outcome may be and avoid a cataclysmic eventuality.
Put simply, what they appear to be saying is this,
Creation of the Higgs is like a drop of rain falling upon the surface of the water. Waves radiate out in all directions. If the drop of rain is the future present, then the waves which radiate out from that single point are moving out not only in 360 degrees of past present and future, but are themselves spherical reverberations that move into all possible possibilities of all past present and futures.
The thing that really intrigues me is the idea that they are not only effecting the past, present and future of the machine, they are effecting their own futures, their planet future, and potentially effecting other planets and star systems, in that the wave is spherical in shape and ever expanding.
I know, I know, it's pretty obscure.

Originally posted by kingoftheworld
I don't think thats very likely. I mean we are talking a single particle here not an actual thinking living breathing person. Furthermore i believe it creates a paradox, because it would prove its own exsistence by letting us know it doesn't want us to discover it.

Comparisons with living breathing persons are not valid here, I think. This is the realm op possibilities, expectations and spacetime fabric. On this level particles appear there were they are expected to appear (Bell theorem), while information about the "where" on the level of a photon for example should not be available in our simple mind's. The Bell theorem spinned our imagination so far to account for the possibilty that on the subatomic level it could be "possible" that "there is no time to account for", and thus information is everywhere. Because how can the photon 'know' where to appear? The realtive distances our enormous on this level.

This is a difficult realm of thinking, for me at least, but when Bell's theorem and the EPR paradox are REAL, then I would not consider a sort of opposite, which would state that in case of some particles due to their characteristics they will never show up where you expect hem to show up, hence setting up a experiment (situation) to create them will never produce their appearance.
Producing a situation where it is impossible to show up, "malfunctions in the set up", is a bit too much to grasp for us. But who knows what is possible when you have passed the time dimension?

[edit on 14-10-2009 by Pjotr]

Damn that John Titor GRRR. He's to blame!

so they ram a couple gluons into a wall. it creates 2 particles (it says 2 top and 2 anti-top) and they create the higgs boson. problem is, they've already indicated that the higgs boson has an anti-higgs boson so maybe the thing is trying to cancel itself out?

Just admit that you wasted billions of Dollars in your little project that doesn't work.

And you might just be forgiven.

Yeah, and the spray painter I bought brand new was also prevented from working by the same force field that stopped the LHC. The future generations don't want me to paint.

What if there continues to be setbacks with the LHC until 2012? And then something happens when it is switched on to validate the claim of 2012 being the "end of time." Maybe time travel is discovered and it turns out anyone can do it, you don't need a particle collider. What if it were literally true - that time as we know it will end. If time travel is discovered and everyone can do it whenever they wanted, then the whole notion of time is moot. Past, present and future become destinations, localities. Thus, the end of time.

I hope I'm not veering too far off topic...

If this is all true then they should be seeing paranormal activity around there. Cameras should be catching some crazy stuff. In order for physical things to happen their must be a force. Even the scientists could be having some kind of mental time warp or parallel cross overs. It would be like a technician wiring up something exactly the way it suppose to, only to find out just minutes later the wiring is all wrong. In his mind it was right and he followed those schematics to the tee, but in reality it's all wrong.

[edit on 14-10-2009 by cloakndagger]

Folks, these scientists are not seriously trying to make up some excuse why the LHC doesn't work. They're not seriously presenting this idea as something real. They're throwing out a very wild hypothesis that they fully understand is extremely unlikely to be true.

That's what these guys get paid to do. Quantum theory is bizarre. As Richard Feynman said, "If quantum theory makes sense, you do not understand it". Theoretical physicists are crazy. They name their particles things like wimps and winos, strange, top, beauty quarks, and so on.

I doubt these guys were any more serious about this theory, than someone would be who blamed problems on Murphy's Law or gremlins. S*** happens. People come to believe that somehow nature herself is trying to mess with us. Until we figure it out and move on with our lives.

No one's abandoning LHC, or giving up, or changing its goals. No one's proposing that the Higgs boson is really so offensive to nature that it must not exist. They're just tossing out ideas.

I still find this whole idea intriguing. It reminds me of someone's idea that the event horizon of a black hole was a way of protecting the Universe from a singularity. They said that nature abhors a "naked singularity", so she modestly hides it behind an event horizon beyond which you cannot see. You can go *into* the event horizon, but then you can never come back to share what you saw. Cool stuff.

I don't think anyone believes it now, but this is what these guys do. They throw out all kinds of totally ridiculous, crazy, insane, confusing, idiotic ideas. Brainstorming, letting the imagination run rampant, go wherever it wants, even if it's completely "impossible". Then they do the math (literally), check astronomical observations, smash some particles together, looking for clues that will falsify some of these goofy notions. Most of them get weeded out pretty early, I'm sure, but some survive. That doesn't mean they're right. Often it's just that we can't figure out a way to test the idea. Take string theory - very interesting, explains a lot, but we haven't found a way to test it.

thats a very far out theory which I doubt very much is whats happening. Scientists were adiment that the lhc doesnt have anywhere near the potential of creating anything catostraphic and that particles collide like that all the time in space. The miles upon miles of complex machinery is more likely the cause of things going wrong all the time. I once heard a theory the you can only travel back in time as far back as when the time machine was invented.

It seems that Hadron has a problem with its Hardon

What about the idea that the higgs boson exists much like light does as both a particle and a wave. Im referring to the Higgs field, which permeates throughout the universe and gives mass to all matter that exists within it. Moreover this field doesnt just exists within the infinite framework of three spacial dimensions but also in the infinite past, present and future contexts of time. How then do we humans create more of this if it exists everywhere in all spacial dimensions aswell as in every moment of time?