Why Democracies and Republics eventually fail...... Lessons from history

First off, I am a huge proponent of democracy and capitalism. This is not meant to be an anti-democracy commentary. But from viewing Democracies in history, all have tended to follow a certain pattern.



I am not arguing that we should not be a Democracy, but instead that we need to fight to stay away from the stages of 5-8. I would argue we are entering #7 right now. We need to fight this dependence on govt, for it is through this dependence that we enter servitude....

Thoughts?


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[edit on 13/10/2009 by Mirthful Me]

[edit on 13-10-2009 by johnny2127]

See this on Glenn Beck today, did we?

I did too... Very interesting.

I think your thread should be titled " Why Humanity Always Fails ". Lessons from history will show that partisanship was the problem, not which ever side one particular person was on.

I agree with your assesment of "democracies" however as it appears in history, but the entire system is set up for failure and advancement of agendas not humanity.

You see the US is NOT a democracy. It is a republic, where the rights of the individual take precendent over the rights of the majority, however this is no longer the case as the lines have been so heavily blurred.

~Keeper

[edit on 10/13/2009 by tothetenthpower]

reply to post by tk1967

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No I actually don't watch Beck. He talked about a 17th Century professor today? Really?

I found it while I was doing research on the process or pattern of the rise and fall of previous world powers. Was trying to see if there was any correlation to what the US is going through right now, and found this.

reply to post by johnny2127

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Could you be more specific on what you mean by dependence on the government? More specifically, what aspects do you believe are dangerous that the majority of the population takes part of?

Everything eventually fails. It's a part of life. Beings are born; they grow; they mature, age, and die. Countries and governments do much the same thing. They're born, and grow, mature and die. Nothing lasts forever.

Part of our problem is that we often don't know when to let go. Sometimes things can be fixed. At some point, however, it comes time to scrap the whole system and start over.

The trick is knowing when it's time to fix things, and knowing when it's time to let go of them and move on.

reply to post by johnny2127

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Star and flag.
I disagree with you, sadly. I fear we have already entered stage 8. This is because i work in healthcare, and I see people who are already dependent on the government even though, after having long conversations with them, they have no reason to be.
That does not mean it is to late. But it does mean that those of us who are true conservatives, who believe in the tenants that led to the founding of this country must speak up loudly. Not just in the political arena, but publically. Get a soapbox and stand on it. Give a speech. It's legal! Argue with your progressive friends, and asked them what happened to American idividuality. Write letters to the editor. Write Op-ed piecies.
And let your representatives and senators know their jobs are on the line, and that you will do everything you can to see they are defeated if they don't do what their constituents want done!

Sure. I would argue than when able bodied people forgo dependence on themselves it is incredibly harmful. The items I refer to, are the dependence on govt for items of one's livelihood. Example of this would be long long term welfare, long term unemployment, govt sponsored healthcare, long term govt housing, dependence on govt to ensure 'fairness', etc...

However, keep in mind, that I also think we have to be a compassionate society, but there are limits. In excess of length and substance, these programs end up encouraging laziness, unproductivity, and a tremendous govt burden. This is not talking about those that cannot help themselves, although concerning these unfortunate souls, I would still hope the help comes from outside of govt.

There has been a huge shift in the attitudes of a huge portion of American citizens, that when there are difficulties or obstacles, so many now immediately turn to govt and ask "How is govt going to fix this? How is govt going to help me?" This is a huge shift, a very unhealthy one, and one that historically has been shown to be unattainable.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

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We are a republic, but the problem is that the politicians treat it as though it were a democracy.

Exactly Miraj.

Every american should watch this video:

www.wimp.com...

Just curious, but what's the average life span of a socialist power system? Greater or less than 200 years? Also, a dictatorship, a monarchy, and a republic?





[edit on 13-10-2009 by nikiano]

Ya, I'd phrase it a different way. I'd say we live in a Republic that the politicians have warped so that they are ensured power and long tenures in office, through in essence making a quasi- democracy republic hybrid. But to ensure this power continues, they continue to give people more and more from govt, and in turn they become more dependent on govt.

I'll have to do some research on that and get back to you.

I hate to say it, but we have not been a true democracy for quite some time...and I also hate to say this, but it seems as if many ATS members think just over the past decade or so, we have just started to "lose" our democracy.

When we have to vote for politicians from a few parties, we are not a democracy anymore. Yes, we are voting, but the system is just that - a system. While I do not believe we can put the blame on one person, but on many people.

I mean come on, for how many years have we been voting the "lesser of the two evils" into presidency? It should not be about that.

The reason why "we the people" have not made much progress is because we do not even know what we are fighting for, or fighting against.

We all seek Utopia (a "perfect" government), but fail to realize that there will be corrupt people out there that will make it impossible.

If we look into the past, we have gone from tribes to cities, from cities to states, from states to countries, and from countries to practically whole continents in terms of population control (and I do not mean that in a bad or good way).

The next step is from continents to the world, which we are already seeing.

And when we have just a few organizations ruling the world, do you truly expect to see a republic or a REAL democracy?...

We will get a false democracy, which is what are are practically in now. Leaders with corporate interests in mind, and then debate on a few ethical issues that get your emotions stirred up so you actually feel connected to one side or the other.

The children of Nazi Germany might have thought they were the right type of government...well, we are in the same boat (not on the whole extinction of the Jew problem though) with our democracy.

A true democracy or not though, what we need to enforce is term limits and IMO, do our best to eliminate blood line take overs which we have seen more of lately.

Lots of words in my post, but even more insight.

I fear this (as in Mr. Beck's production) is yet another piece that is preordained to give the absolute wrong impression about the nature of our form of government and the inescapable eventualities related to its future.

Many here have already noted the truth in their own way. And most seem understanding of the inconsistencies in the manner in which many misconstrue or somehow subtly fail to acknowledge reality in the discussion.

The principles of a Constitutional Republic acknowledge and compensate for the nature of changing culture and the will of the people.

It is it's incompatibility with "Political Careerism" and the persistent attacks from an "Ideological Oligarchy" that is the cause of the problem for those who would have our will invalidated by some virtue of the leadership that only IT recognizes.

There are many ways and excuses to pawn off on the 'rules' which we are told apply to this facet of all our lives. But in the end - most are strident ideological models backhandedly being applied to a most simple axiom, accepted by the founders, and ratified as best could be centuries ago.

The government serves the people. The will of the people is primary. The government is not now - nor has it ever been - empowered to "Rule" over citizens. The government must NEVER, under any circumstances, be empowered to 'enforce' a will contrary to the public will.

Because of this Constitutional Republican feature, the only way to accomplish a control contrary to the public good is by subterfuge...... so here we are.


Those with the means, motive, and opportunity, to carry out such subterfuge have, do, and intend to continue said subterfuge - this much is evident.


"What are we gonna do about it?" Seems a begging questions.

The Constitutional Democratic Republic instituted by the 'founding' fathers may well have been beyond the comprehension of those who would have rather not seen such an instrument as our Constitution in place. Perhaps they meant it so. Perhaps not.

The death-knell of the Republic of the United States of America won't ring out until she commits suicide. Such a nation cannot be conquered; this all men know. Her destruction MUST come from within. She must be "allowed" to die by those oath-bound to protect her..... now how possible is that - after all they represent our will don't they?

Be well.

[edit on 30-10-2009 by Maxmars]

reply to post by johnny2127

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Democracies and Republics fail because of the people indifferences when it comes to those that happens to become powerful enough to hold the nations hostage.

Greed is something that is part of human nature, those few in power holding the nations hostage are not immune to it, actually that greed is what keep them going.

reply to post by Maxmars

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Maxmars has written something truly wise and brilliant. I want to make some additional points. It may be that no Republic has ever really lasted even if one has ever truly been founded. Remember that Rome was once considered a Republic. For those who may not know it, that was why Julius Caesar was murdered by some senators: they suspected what he was intending. Yet Rome was an aristocratic society, which had strong social strata, including slavery (yet even a freed slave was thereby adopted into the "gens" or family of their former owner, and became a citizen). But while Julius did not live to receive the crown, his nephew August did. The end of the Roman Republic. To many, cheers but to some civil war. Sorry Pompey.

For us, as many of you probably did not know, George Washington was offered the crown to become King of America. He turned it down. Thus we had a great man who took us in another direction. But where have we been and where are we going? Our Republic using the political tools of democray has always been a social and political experiment. And that experiment has taken us through a civil war, conquests of foreign territory (Mexico, Hawaii, Spain), purchases from foreign rulers to add territory (France, Russia) and the sometimes bloody acquisition of territory of the indigenous people of this land. Ever hear of the Trail of Tears? Thank you President Jackson

Our American civilization marches onward. We are watching this unfold in our lifetimes as well. America means something new to children born after Martin Luther King, or Stonewall. What we can take from the past are tools to provide for a better future, including the wisdom of our founding fathers (and mothers thank you very much Susan B. Anthony) and which is always an unfolding question. Yes, we may have social problems coming from our variations in wealth, education, social and economic opportunity and the variety of responses we bring to these social conditions. Bread and circuses, maybe. While racism and sexism are in decline, people remain people. Our experiment is not yet over and won't be for a long time to come. Nobody can predict what the outcome of this will be. At least it will be something remembered by history as an inspiration for generations to come.